To see without any understanding

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movement11
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Re: To see without any understanding

Postby movement11 » Sat Sep 24, 2016 5:56 pm

I like our conversation too. So much came up yesterday about releasing my concerns and expectations. And letting this all flow. Feel a lot more at ease and being okay in "I don't know" space...I like the peace that comes with that.
As an exsercise:

1) Pick a hobby of yours. Be it whatever.
2) Close your eyes
3) Think about being the best at it, and imagine you just performed your best appearance, see people people cheering for you in a stadium, giving you hands afterwards etc
4) Open your eyes

Answer the following:

What is there when you open your eyes?
Do the thoughts about it stop immediately?
Do you for one moment question that you where dreaming.. that is was real?
What is the difference between that experience, and the experience you having about "feel natural", and "habitually"?
When I open my eyes....I am back at my computer. The moment disappears.
The thoughts don't stop immediately. I still had a feeling of excitement and passion for singing (my hobby I chose) within me. I always feel more alive when I perform.
I know that it was dreaming. Whatever dreaming is. I can look and it feels like I moved my consciousness to another time and place and experienced it again. If that is dreaming, then it was dreaming. However, I can look right now and feel sometimes in the present...that is just a dream too. Not much has felt really "real" to me in the past 3 or 4 months. But looking, yes...I can see that imagining my singing and the feelings that I felt there were a "dream" for the moment that I took myself to.
As for the last question....being habitual and feeling natural....I can't get a look at that. I am sitting here trying but I am not seeing the connection and I don't want to answer from an intellectual point or from a place of trying to get the "right" answer that you are looking for....although, I feel that urge greatly...;) Can you help me point to it? It feels important but I am having trouble going there to look...not sure why.

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movement11
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Re: To see without any understanding

Postby movement11 » Sat Sep 24, 2016 5:57 pm

Small side note: The weekend of september 30th-Oct 3rd...I will be traveling and visiting family. Just a couple of days and I should still be able to post here daily. But just in case I don't, I wanted to let you know that I will post again as soon as I get back.

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bth
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Re: To see without any understanding

Postby bth » Sat Sep 24, 2016 7:23 pm

Oke thanks for the info! Have a good time.

What I am pointing to is that you had some sticky points with thoughts like " habitual" and " feel natural". With the dreaming exsercose i tried to show you that these are also just thoughts ( in the same wat that you were dreaming being a singer, The tought I as well ;)). They arent seen. Can you see habitual except as a thought? Does it exist?

Lets put it differently.

If you wouldnt label the experiences you had before as " habitual" and " feels natural" does anything changes?

Barry


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movement11
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Re: To see without any understanding

Postby movement11 » Sat Sep 24, 2016 11:42 pm

Okay that last question helped. No...nothing changes. It is still just happening. I brush my teeth and put on my workout shoes every morning. "I" think it is because I have "trained" myself to. But if I look at who I am without the thought "this is a habit I created" or a habit I SHOULD be doing...it would just be putting on shoes is happening and brushing my teeth is happening. I can see that.

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bth
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Re: To see without any understanding

Postby bth » Sun Sep 25, 2016 4:08 pm

Oke great.

When you say I can see..what do you refer to now as compared from when we started this conversation?

Was there ever any thing called I/ self etc?

Barry


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movement11
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Re: To see without any understanding

Postby movement11 » Mon Sep 26, 2016 5:13 am

When you say I can see..what do you refer to now as compared from when we started this conversation?

Was there ever any thing called I/ self etc?
Now, it seems that I refer to something just there. It appears. Not so much ownership of it.
I don't feel like there was anything called I....that feels real that there never was...just a bunch of thoughts.

But I get caught again.
Is there zero choice at all?
Is choice just a thought too?
It appears that I can direct consciousness with intention.
When I intend certain things and do it repeatedly and with consistency, things in my life seems to change.
This is where I get hung up on there being no “I”…..Can you help me look through that? Through manifestation seeming to happen?

I am loving this part of me as it feels like my egos last stand or something....but since there is no such thing as anything...I just feel so lost...on the verge of tears...like I am grasping onto to something that has never been real but is my only salvation.

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bth
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Re: To see without any understanding

Postby bth » Mon Sep 26, 2016 9:02 pm

Hej Man,

Yea somethings can be quiet a shock to the system. Feelings of helplessness en loss are normal and will pass. They still happen to me every now and than. Invite them, really i mean it, invite them, experience them fully and they will pass. This is maybe best to do first before answering the questions below.

Yes choice and descision making are stories too. But its best for you to find that out by direct experience (these things are mostly dealt with post gate, after finding out no I )

But dont get me wrong Im not saying here to not create anymore, keep on creating!, keep on building stuff, thats my futile belief that its fun! There is just no owner to the experience, no decision maker

Do you know what your next thought will be? Can you know exactly where a descision or choice is comming from? (think about the excersise with the hand..And if you wouldnt label it as choice or descision making, does it have a different feel?

Barrry

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movement11
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Re: To see without any understanding

Postby movement11 » Mon Sep 26, 2016 10:17 pm

Thank you Barry. It's funny you suggested inviting those emotions in because that was the first thing I did this morning. I normally journal every day where I allow whatever emotions coming up to be heard and then I literally "walk" directly toward them...allow them to be experienced and then welcome them to be felt and experienced fully...and they always pass. I know that process well and yet, was pretty caught up in the fear that was swishing around. It felt good to allow my deep fear of not being able to make a choice...well, my conditioning of fear of not making choices..not being in control...it felt good to allow that to be loved by me and be the observer and allower of it.

I walked directly into my fear of failing at this...and not "getting it" and my yearning to UNDERSTAND...lol. Feel much more at peace with that now. Knowing it is allowed to be here...and that the part of me that WANTS to be enlightened, will never be enlightened...THAT part will never see it...because it is the part I let go through love. Much much more peaceful.

So, as for your question....
Do you know what your next thought will be? Can you know exactly where a descision or choice is comming from? (think about the excersise with the hand..And if you wouldnt label it as choice or descision making, does it have a different feel?
I do not know what my next thought will be. I can directly look and feel there is no control there. I remember looking as I read Gateless there too...and that was a huge shift for me. It is such a subtle thing but they appear ...they happen. I don't get to manage that. Even when I think I am managing that...lol.
And with the hand...if that is no choice...no decision....it feels like it is happening on another plane of some sort. And the illusion of "I" is watching and commenting like it is a beautiful separate entity but it was all "built" and is part of consciousness as well...but not a thing. It is no different from the hand or the movement. All just happening. Feeling better.

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bth
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Re: To see without any understanding

Postby bth » Mon Sep 26, 2016 10:25 pm

Great! Yea seeing through this is also a process I think and doesnt nessecarily have to be one big Aha. I noticed while I dont guide too long that minor shifts happen along the way as well. As was the case for me too.

Is there anything you still feel uncomfortable with? Want to discuss in light of the inquiry? Can you see through awareness and the body as well ( these tend to be commin sticky points as well..)


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movement11
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Re: To see without any understanding

Postby movement11 » Mon Sep 26, 2016 10:32 pm

Would love to question through within the light of inquiry.... Although I am not sure what you mean by that.... Also could you elaborate on awareness and the body... Wasn't to make sure I am clear on that

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bth
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Re: To see without any understanding

Postby bth » Mon Sep 26, 2016 10:43 pm

Its your inquiry, and process so my work is to guide you through the "gate". Whether youve seen that is for you to decide :).

Awareness and body are just concepts, thoughts in the same way I and for example a University is.

If I tell you there is no self, no I, and there was nothing to be seen.How do you react now?

Barry

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movement11
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Re: To see without any understanding

Postby movement11 » Tue Sep 27, 2016 8:20 pm

Its your inquiry, and process so my work is to guide you through the "gate". Whether youve seen that is for you to decide :).
This scares me. I don't know if I have seen it. I surely thought I have but I have lost so much "trust" in my thinking (which I feel is a really good thing) that I don't feel I can be counted on for confirmation if that makes sense.
Awareness and body are just concepts, thoughts in the same way I and for example a University is.
Could you define what you are referring to when you say awareness? I want to be sure that I am on the same page. When I speak of it, it is the noticing of things being. As I look...I can see that awareness is indeed another thought...it also feels like a sensation though. But without the thought that I am aware...it just happens. It is happening whether or not I know I am aware or not. Yes...I see that.

For the body. I thought about that university comparison. In that then, the body is a label. It isn't a thing...yet it is real..correct? Not sure if I am as clear on that...feels a bit muddy as the body feels like a thing to me.

If I tell you there is no self, no I, and there was nothing to be seen.How do you react now?
What I feel with that...is two things. The first...is I went back and looked at it...especially the part about "nothing to be seen" and that was interesting. Because I could feel the I wanting to KNOW it was enlightened. But there was a peace about it knowing that those were just thoughts...thoughts that couldn't ever be fixed because the "enlightenment" or LIFE itself is where the yearning for something to be seen, the yearning for enlightenment comes from. All if it comes from there. Also, I feel that it feels and seems true but I honestly don't know if I am intellectualizing this or if I have really seen through it. My guess is the first due to the fact that I am trying to figure anything out at all. So, I guess it is back to square one? lol :(

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bth
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Re: To see without any understanding

Postby bth » Wed Sep 28, 2016 10:22 am

Hej man,

You I notice that you already done quiet some work on yourself, which is good, but you are now making it harder on yourself than is neccesary :).

Awareness is just a thought. If there where no thoughts about anything? What remains. Just simply the experience, here now, happening. The mystery. Thoughts in this example are trying to make sense of a world of with symbols (in this case the symbol awareness), and a symbol cannot describe the reality you see. Have a look for yourself.

Going further with that. How can you see it and not see it? Arent these just stories? Isnt going in and out of seeing also a story which is happening in the same way you open and close your hand? Than what is there to find, to see, if there is no I?

Barry

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movement11
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Re: To see without any understanding

Postby movement11 » Wed Sep 28, 2016 6:26 pm

First, thank you again for being on this journey with me. I truly appreciate you.

I decided to meditate and get still. I could feel that things were to busy and I wasn't calm enough...my mind wasn't calm enough for me to "pin" it down to look at it. Felt like I was trying to chase a 2 year old that didn't want to take a bath. ha ha!
Awareness is just a thought. If there where no thoughts about anything? What remains. Just simply the experience, here now, happening. The mystery. Thoughts in this example are trying to make sense of a world of with symbols (in this case the symbol awareness), and a symbol cannot describe the reality you see. Have a look for yourself.
I saw this. I loved an analogy I heard from Michael Singer once about that we are like a man sitting on the edge of a lake and the lake is our mind/psyche and rocks that create ripples are the world and just life happening. We can't control the rocks. We can't control the ripples those rocks cause in our mind/pysche. And if we try to jump in and stop the ripples...we create more. Instead, we sit on the outside of the lake and notice and just become basically OKAY with the ripples and with the rocks and with the lake...knowing things will move in and out of it and it doesn't change the fact that we are still outside of the lake. So, basically one of my favorite descriptions of mindfulness.

However, as I was being still with my eyes closed, I was thinking of this piece you mentioned on awareness. And I noticed that the man sitting on the side of the lake is as much of the thoughts and as much of an illusion as everything else. I started getting a vision of him melting into the water...all of it melting together to become one big water. Lots of thoughts came up and I kept lovingly swiping them into the water. And then I would have a thought about swiping them into the water as all and I would swipe that thought. I could see clearly that it all was there together. All thoughts, all thoughts about thoughts, all conclusions about those thoughts and even me thinking I am observing the thoughts...even that is a subtle form of an "I". I could feel that. Very cool.

I did notice that I couldn't stop and be still enough to be in the space of no thought. And that to me is the knowing of their is no I. I think? I allowed it though. I felt the frustration come up and I allowed that to be there without trying to change it. Seeing it as a thought. I allowed my need to "get this" to come up once yet again...and allowed it as a thought.
Going further with that. How can you see it and not see it? Arent these just stories? Isnt going in and out of seeing also a story which is happening in the same way you open and close your hand? Than what is there to find, to see, if there is no I?
Then I moved on to this last piece and brought it up. I could see this. I can see this. My story of getting it and not getting it are all just part of the play. And the thought that there is something to find or something to get would have to be constructed within the play of the "I". This was felt. And honestly, I still feel moving in and out of it.

The only thing I could capture....and its odd to try to describe it to you because as soon as I use words, I feel I have dropped back into wanting an outcome. Very confusing to me. But it felt like the whole lake analogy ....just all of it is part of the play. And I am not back behind it watching. I am nothign. There is nothing. And I don't know how to describe NO feeling or NO anything. I can sense it....every so lightly though.

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movement11
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Re: To see without any understanding

Postby movement11 » Wed Sep 28, 2016 6:29 pm

PS...it just clicked for me when "enlightened" people say "I can use my ego when I choose to...moving back into it to accomplish something and then allowing it to be and moving back out of it" (paraphrased)


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