How to overcome this I, me, thing and why we want to do this as the things happen as it should

[fuxi05]

Hi Jon,

Do you find that the assumption of the existence of a separate 'self' is more or less built into language?

Yes, I agree with it. This what I heard and learned from my parents, my teachers in the school and also from the society.
It would be fun to start to talk each other in a passive way:
- I opened the door at 5 am.
-The door was opened at 5 am.

So that an idea of 'I' is enshrined within everyday speech?

Yes, because there is a belief generally that individual 'I' exists and how it is important.

So, there is sensing, seeing, hearing and so on. These can be experienced in the moment, right here and now, can't they?

Yes, they are here and now.

If you touch your face there is an immediate sensation. But what about the feeling or thought of 'self'?

'self' is a sensation as well but there is no direct experience of it like touching the face, the direct experience is immediately there, there is no gap in time. Therefore we start to look for this 'I' but this search fails at some point because you didn't get an experience of the 'I', it is still just a feeling or thought which remains in a mist.

Here I would like to ask also what is the difference between the feelings and thoughts? Is it the same? What is the purpose of using them?

Does the feeling or thought of 'self' make a real separate self come into being?
Or is this like Santa Claus?..seeming to be a real guy who comes down the. chimney with presents until one day it is realised that Santa only ever was an idea?

It is more like a Santa Claus. This 'I' feeling looks real.
The question is here on which day this realization happen that there is no 'I'. :)
As we also come to that point in the childhood that Santa does not exists and it was just a click moment at some point in the time, without any preparation or too much thinking. Or maybe I cannot remember well for that moment. :)

Thank you.
Balazs

[JonathanR]

Hi Balazs,

'self' is a sensation as well but there is no direct experience of it like touching the face, the direct experience is immediately there, there is no gap in time. Therefore we start to look for this 'I' but this search fails at some point because you didn't get an experience of the 'I', it is still just a feeling or thought which remains in a mist.

Here I would like to ask also what is the difference between the feelings and thoughts? Is it the same? What is the purpose of using them?

This is a question you must answer for yourself. One can notice thoughts almost as a stream of words (like the radio...) or as images, like pictures sometimes. Then there are feelings, as in 'emotions'. These could be described as energetic sensations. It is interesting to notice these often associated with 'the body'. Emotional feelings often seem linked to the announcements that appear as thoughts, don't they?

Is there a 'self' at all, anywhere in experience, beyond a thought or feeling that one 'must exist'. if so, what is it? Where is it?

The question is here on which day this realization happen that there is no 'I'. :)

Is there a 'you' that is waiting for a realization to happen? Where is that one that waits?

Thank you,

jon

[fuxi05]

Hi Jon,

Emotional feelings often seem linked to the announcements that appear as thoughts, don't they?

Yes, it looks like that thought come and some emotional feelings can come or not. It is also a good question what kind of thought bring emotional feeling. As I see those thoughts which related to the 'I' and those feeling often labeled as good or bad.
But here we arrived your question again.

Is there a 'self' at all, anywhere in experience, beyond a thought or feeling that one 'must exist'. if so, what is it? Where is it?

And the answer is ...
And no more words or thoughts are coming. I can speculate on that there is no separate self BUT there is big oneness because if I watch a movie then I can say that characters are not real, they do not exist but the canvas is real where the pictures appear and disappear. And using this metaphor we arrived your earlier question:
"Since no 'I' is found, what notices that there is no self?"
And to the next question.

Is there a 'you' that is waiting for a realization to happen? Where is that one that waits?

And in this way the circle is over. I am at the starting point again what you mentioned in your first post:
"All our efforts will be focused on one thing, for you to make the realisation that there is no self."
And we will always come back to this point.

The 'How' question is also pointless because who want's to know ... the I
The 'What to do' question is also pointless because who want's to do ... the I

What if I just say that the realization that there is no self will happen after sometimes and somehow, I cannot do anything as I don't exist.
What I can do is to focus on whatever is in front me in the present moment be in silence whatever it means and keep in mind that there is no self.

If I want to use a metaphor to describe the situation: standing in the middle of desert and seeing only sand and not knowing the way out from the desert. Do you have any advice?

Thank you.
Balazs

[JonathanR]

Hi Balazs,

And no more words or thoughts are coming. I can speculate on that there is no separate self BUT there is big oneness

What is the problem with this? It sounds cool :-)

The 'How' question is also pointless because who want's to know ... the I
The 'What to do' question is also pointless because who want's to do ... the I

What 'I'?

Has one been found yet?

If not, how can an I 'want to know' anything?

Maybe 'big oneness' can be labelled 'I', or not? Does it matter which label is chosen?

I cannot do anything as I don't exist.

Does the question of 'exist' or 'not exist' even arise for big oneness?

If I want to use a metaphor to describe the situation: standing in the middle of desert and seeing only sand and not knowing the way out from the desert. Do you have any advice?

Yes. Try this:

Go and run some water from a tap. Actually do this. Place your hand under the flowing water.

Now, compare the experience of the water flowing over your hand with the imagined desert.

The water is Here, Now.


Regards,

Jon.

[fuxi05]

Hi Jon,

What is the problem with this? It sounds cool :-)

Yes, it sounds cool if there is no 'if' or 'but'. :)

What 'I'?

'I' as a label, I can say 'blabla' instead of the 'I'

Has one been found yet?

Not yet. :)

If not, how can an I 'want to know' anything?

Noway.

Maybe 'big oneness' can be labelled 'I', or not? Does it matter which label is chosen?

Maybe but who cares. :) And it really does not matter which label used.

Does the question of 'exist' or 'not exist' even arise for big oneness?

No, it is just a simple being.

Thank you.
Balazs

[JonathanR]

Hi Balazs,

You said:

I can speculate on that there is no separate self BUT there is big oneness

Please say more about this? I need to know as clearly as possible what you mean by 'big oneness'.

Also, what is it about big oneness that seems to contradict no separate self?

Yes, it sounds cool if there is no 'if' or 'but'. :)

Please say more about these 'ifs' or 'buts'? How do these express themselves?


Thank you.

Jon

[fuxi05]

Hi Jon,

Please say more about this? I need to know as clearly as possible what you mean by 'big oneness'.

I can use only pictures to describe it. Let's see the ocean and wave example. If the wave says that I am a separate wave, I see many others which are bigger or smaller then we can see clearly that the waves are part of the ocean where the ocean means the 'big oneness'. We can say that only the ocean exist and the waves are just appearing and disappearing in it. Ocean is the source.

If we look at one table and the things on it like glasses, knives, plates, spoons, salt cellar and so on. In this picture, if we identify ourselves only with one thing, with one knife then we forgot about the base which enables for the other thing to exist.
Here the table is the 'big oneness'

Also, what is it about big oneness that seems to contradict no separate self?

If there is no separate self then there is big oneness. :)

Please say more about these 'ifs' or 'buts'? How do these express themselves?

There is 'big oneness', it is not needed even to be big. :)
So there is oneness but I don't see it or feel it. (Here we come again to your earlier question - What 'I')
There is oneness if the click happen and it is clear that there is no separate self. (Maybe this is also one expectation from this process and could be that it is the biggest one.)

Thank you.
Balazs

[JonathanR]

Hi Balazs,

I can use only pictures to describe it. Let's see the ocean and wave example. If the wave says that I am a separate wave, I see many others which are bigger or smaller then we can see clearly that the waves are part of the ocean where the ocean means the 'big oneness'. We can say that only the ocean exist and the waves are just appearing and disappearing in it. Ocean is the source.

If we look at one table and the things on it like glasses, knives, plates, spoons, salt cellar and so on. In this picture, if we identify ourselves only with one thing, with one knife then we forgot about the base which enables for the other thing to exist.
Here the table is the 'big oneness'

Thank you for this explanation.

So there is oneness but I don't see it or feel it. (Here we come again to your earlier question - What 'I')
There is oneness if the click happen and it is clear that there is no separate self. (Maybe this is also one expectation from this process and could be that it is the biggest one.)

It is good that you have said this.

Yes, this can be a big expectation and a place where an 'I' seems to hold on to an idea of liberation.

It can easily be the same as 'liberation must look like this' or 'like that'.

Look right here and now. Who, or what, expects a click to happen?

The other thing I would like you to do is find an opportunity to go for a walk in nature. This could be in a park, by a river, or sea or where there is grass and trees. Somewhere where everything is alive, sunshine, clouds, wind, grass, , trees, animals, insects, people...

Take a few minutes to relax and then look to see if it is possible to find a place where 'you' end 'everything else' begins? Is there a line or edge in your experience behind which everything is 'me' and beyond which everything else is 'not me'? Or is it impossible in experience to find such a line?

Do look for this line or edge. Look instead of reasoning about it. Don't just assume it either does or does not exist.

Warm regards,

Jon

[fuxi05]

Hi Jon,

Look right here and now. Who, or what, expects a click to happen?

Maybe just an idea wants to happen this click. And yes you are right with this "It can easily be the same as 'liberation must look like this' or 'like that'."
There was an idea that how and when should this happen and it was common that some special things happened then this thought just appeared "Now it will happen, be here" :) It was so crazy. And nothing happened, there was no big bang just a little disappointment came.
And also that idea was here: give me a very complicated task, practice what I can do and after that I reach the nirvana.
It was good to write this down, just a big smile left now.

Here I would like to ask also what is the right definition and method for Look.

Take a few minutes to relax and then look to see if it is possible to find a place where 'you' end 'everything else' begins? Is there a line or edge in your experience behind which everything is 'me' and beyond which everything else is 'not me'? Or is it impossible in experience to find such a line?

It was strange to sit on a bench and look the environment. It was like that everything happened at the same time where ever I looked. I looked into one direction there was one picture with different object and I looked into the opposite direction then there was another picture like in the movie.
As I turned my head and saw different pictures one idea came that I am the center.
But after it, this question came up immediately, who or what is aware that 'my' body is sitting there and turning the head in different direction or watching the mobile and reading the exercise suggested by Jon. :)
And I tried to zoom out to see my body from outside from an outer viewpoint, like from top of the tree but nothing happened there was no big bum or big AHA. :)

Now answering to your question, I was not able to find a line where 'me' and 'not me' starts or ends.
I will try the exercise tomorrow again.

Thank you.
Balazs

[JonathanR]

Hi Balazs

Maybe just an idea wants to happen this click. And yes you are right with this "It can easily be the same as 'liberation must look like this' or 'like that'."
There was an idea that how and when should this happen and it was common that some special things happened then this thought just appeared "Now it will happen, be here" :) It was so crazy. And nothing happened, there was no big bang just a little disappointment came.

This seems to be a very common disappointment. Expecting the big experience to appear may be a little like expecting Santa to appear?

And also that idea was here: give me a very complicated task, practice what I can do and after that I reach the nirvana.
It was good to write this down, just a big smile left now.

:-) It's good to see through this now. Years could be spent believing that a complicated path or practice will result in a big experience and there is no guarantee of an outcome.

Here I would like to ask also what is the right definition and method for Look.

Thank you. A very good question.

When we suggest to look, we mean, simply, without any enormous effort, just start to notice the real experience here and now. Whatever is appearing this very moment as really happening. That is to say, any of the sensations relating to seeing, hearing, touch, taste or smell that are happening in this very moment. For instance, right now, if you look, you may find a slight feeling of pressure where you are sitting on a chair? And sensations of seeing as this text is read? Thoughts also appear. Do you notice this? So the appearance of thoughts, like sensations, also happens.

However, there is an aspect to thought that apprears to be happening but which is simply a story...not really happening. Thoughts are very often ABOUT something, other thoughts, or ideas of 'me' or 'them' or 'nirvana' or 'death' or 'not experiencing a realization' ..and so on. Do you notice this?

It is possible to notice the content of thought (including the assumption of 'I') and see that none of this is really happening or being experienced (other than as an idea of something happening or being experienced).

But looking is simply noticing whatever is going on in experience right now.

Tell me if you understand what I have said about 'looking'?

It was strange to sit on a bench and look the environment. It was like that everything happened at the same time where ever I looked. I looked into one direction there was one picture with different object and I looked into the opposite direction then there was another picture like in the movie.
As I turned my head and saw different pictures one idea came that I am the center.
But after it, this question came up immediately, who or what is aware that 'my' body is sitting there and turning the head in different direction or watching the mobile and reading the exercise suggested by Jon. :)
And I tried to zoom out to see my body from outside from an outer viewpoint, like from top of the tree but nothing happened there was no big bum or big AHA. :)

This is a good start Balazs but don't try too intensely. All that is needed is quiet noticing of whatever presents its self to the senses. No mental gymnastics, just peacefully noticing. And when that is going on, take a look for any line or edge.

All the best :-)

Jon

[fuxi05]

Hi Jon,

Expecting the big experience to appear may be a little like expecting Santa to appear?

Yes, the funny things that you know that Santa will not appear in here and now as Santa does not exist.

When we suggest to look, we mean, simply, without any enormous effort, just start to notice the real experience here and now. Whatever is appearing this very moment as really happening. That is to say, any of the sensations relating to seeing, hearing, touch, taste or smell that are happening in this very moment. For instance, right now, if you look, you may find a slight feeling of pressure where you are sitting on a chair? And sensations of seeing as this text is read? Thoughts also appear. Do you notice this? So the appearance of thoughts, like sensations, also happens.

However, there is an aspect to thought that apprears to be happening but which is simply a story...not really happening. Thoughts are very often ABOUT something, other thoughts, or ideas of 'me' or 'them' or 'nirvana' or 'death' or 'not experiencing a realization' ..and so on. Do you notice this?

It is possible to notice the content of thought (including the assumption of 'I') and see that none of this is really happening or being experienced (other than as an idea of something happening or being experienced).

But looking is simply noticing whatever is going on in experience right now.

Tell me if you understand what I have said about 'looking'?

Thank you for the explanation. At this moment it looks clear.

All that is needed is quiet noticing of whatever presents its self to the senses. No mental gymnastics, just peacefully noticing. And when that is going on, take a look for any line or edge.

Today I tried again but some impatience feeling was coming which said 'come on let's do it and finish it forever' :)
And I saw that there is a tendency to solve the issues fast or get an instant result and if it is not happen then I move to next thing, course, book.

And here also come that thought that I am so ready not 11 but 12 and I am on the second page and still nothing happened so I will ask Jon to stop this or at least tell me why we do this and not only we but other people here in other topics, what is the point and how long it will take. :)

But this is again a story with different thoughts about 'How the things should happen in my life' because here come one more expectation :) when this click happen and not for me of course because I don't exist, I will be free. Now it is so funny see this, it is like a tragicomedy. :)

Thank you.
Balazs

[JonathanR]

Hi Balazs,

Yes, the funny things that you know that Santa will not appear in here and now as Santa does not exist.

No he doesn't. Only as an idea. 'Big experience' may exist as an idea like Santa but this idea can be an expectation that acts like a cloud covering the sun. Any expectation can be like this.

Today I tried again but some impatience feeling was coming which said 'come on let's do it and finish it forever' :)
And I saw that there is a tendency to solve the issues fast or get an instant result and if it is not happen then I move to next thing, course, book.

Great! It is very helpful to notice this tendency.

Moving on to the next thing... What would it be like if there were no moving on?

What would it be like to be free to remain in this moment forever, without seeking to change anything?

And here also come that thought that I am so ready not 11 but 12 and I am on the second page and still nothing happened so I will ask Jon to stop this or at least tell me why we do this and not only we but other people here in other topics, what is the point and how long it will take. :)

Unless there is letting go of the expectations of what should happen, it might take forever.

But this is again a story with different thoughts about 'How the things should happen in my life' because here come one more expectation :) when this click happen and not for me of course because I don't exist, I will be free. Now it is so funny see this, it is like a tragicomedy. :)

Ha! Yes. It is. 'You' can't 'make it happen'. Nothing has to happen. The only thing that is needed is looking and seeing that there has never been a self.

Thank you

Jon

[fuxi05]

Hi Jon,

No he doesn't. Only as an idea. 'Big experience' may exist as an idea like Santa but this idea can be an expectation that acts like a cloud covering the sun. Any expectation can be like this.

Reading this I realized that I am living the daily life mostly in ideas and most of them are related to an expectation which could be work, home, family, friends, living style.
Those ideas are hidden and not so visible because I thought that I am over with this topic as I reached some level in the spiritual world but now this just came up.

What would it be like if there were no moving on?

We will see it now as there is a strong desire to stay here and see what will happen.

What would it be like to be free to remain in this moment forever, without seeking to change anything?

It is easy on one side because if I focus only on those things what is in front me then the things just happen and there is an acceptance. The problem will arise when thoughts are about the future about the plans which are more practical things, what to do, buy, eat, drink, clean.

Unless there is letting go of the expectations of what should happen, it might take forever.

Yes, it looks like a never ending story as new expectations will always come what can be letting go and then another idea is coming and the circle begins again.

Ha! Yes. It is. 'You' can't 'make it happen'. Nothing has to happen. The only thing that is needed is looking and seeing that there has never been a self.

But somehow this looking and seeing also happen or not? Maybe it will happen not for every people? Here is a little confusion if there is nothing to do then what can be done to help this process? :)

Thank you.
Balazs

[JonathanR]

Hi Balazs,

Reading this I realized that I am living the daily life mostly in ideas and most of them are related to an expectation which could be work, home, family, friends, living style.
Those ideas are hidden and not so visible because I thought that I am over with this topic as I reached some level in the spiritual world but now this just came up.

Very good! This is the beginning of seeing through assumptions to what is actually going on directly, moment to moment. Not 'in a future' or 'in a past' but always right here and now.

Here and now, can 'past' or 'future' be found (except as an idea)?

It is easy on one side because if I focus only on those things what is in front me then the things just happen and there is an acceptance. The problem will arise when thoughts are about the future about the plans which are more practical things, what to do, buy, eat, drink, clean.

Yes. Many thoughts come and go and there is an appearance of a 'my life', 'my future', and so on, so that it seems as if there is a self that has 'a life'. But look now, isn't the reality that moment to moment life is simply happening? Yes there are thoughts but are these actually 'my thoughts'?

Whatever is happening in thought, is that being sensed here and now? Is it possible to see, hear or touch the story of Balazs that happens in thought?
Is it really happening, or an idea ABOUT what is assumed to be happening?

But somehow this looking and seeing also happen or not? Maybe it will happen not for every people? Here is a little confusion if there is nothing to do then what can be done to help this process? :)

Don't be confused. There is a little focus required and a willingness to look at experience to see what is really going on. That's all. No great effort is required, in fact noticing this requires almost no effort. All that happens is that assumptions fall away and it is seen that there never was a 'self' behind them.

Thanks.

Jon

[fuxi05]

Hi Jon,

Here and now, can 'past' or 'future' be found (except as an idea)?

No. Even the 'now' is hard to find because as I said now then it turns to past immediately. It seems even now is just an idea.
The question is do we need to deal with past, now and future or we just can use them in the daily communication.

But look now, isn't the reality that moment to moment life is simply happening?

Now, I can say, I agree with that. Like picture after picture in the cinema.

Yes there are thoughts but are these actually 'my thoughts'?

Not really. If I would say then the 'my thoughts' is equal to the car, food, beer thought but until now the 'my thought' got more attention then the others or I can say that the 'my thought' was the king.

Whatever is happening in thought, is that being sensed here and now?

No, if I just look a meeting in the workplace then I know that 'my' body is there but 'my' thought on the beach for example.

Is it possible to see, hear or touch the story of Balazs that happens in thought?

No, if I am playing the superhero thoughts then the reality is completely different. It is interesting to see that these fantasy world is not real but I play with the thoughts and go with the story or I went in the past. :)

Is it really happening, or an idea ABOUT what is assumed to be happening?

No, most of the time the thoughts just an idea about what should happen.

Thank you,
Balazs