Give me the final push, please!

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Alexw
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Re: Give me the final push, please!

Postby Alexw » Thu Sep 08, 2016 3:26 am

Dude, you got me so frustrated there...looking and looking for something that I just couldn't find
Sorry for that... but it is important that you are 100% sure and really look...
energy + I-thought + habitual pattern of response = 'anger'. Behind there is nothing. Just boundless space.
Ok, so lets go back to this anger which is made up of these ingredients you mentioned above... Its just a process that is labelled as anger, right? Not a real thing, not an emotion that you can pinpoint...
Please sit down and relax - intone your sentence and feel the sensations arise... When you are in the "gap" look if there is anything in it? Is there an "I" thought in the gap at all? Or is the "I" thought already part of the reaction?
Look closely and see what you find... Is there anything that bridges the gap from sensations to reaction? Can the I-thought do that?
But I find that when anger arises, it's very much about the idea of a separate self and also a strategy to maintain that idea
The question is if "anger" really ever arises? Are the reactions that occur when you exit the gap really "anger"? Or are they simply a yell, a physical movement or a chain of thoughts? Do any of these reactions qualify as the statement "I am angry!"?

"A strategy to maintain the idea of a self..." I know there is this concept - which has often been stated in different books - that there is a self, an ego, that tries to maintain its continuity... But being perfectly honest, how would that work? A process is simply a collection of (unrelated) events that are then labelled as self, anger etc.. Can this process really have a goal? Can it have a strategy? Or is this also just a story?
This character has a certain pattern of reacting to anger that is triggered
No, it hasn't. That is pure story.
There are certain triggers resulting in certain sensations and certain thoughts - then certain reactions might happen. While there seems to be pattern there is no character to be found that owns the pattern, is there? Maybe the pattern is the character?
How can there then be a feeling of anger present without any owner of that feeling? It can't!
While this is true don't make this a measurement - don't have the expectation that seeing through the illusion of a separate self automatically takes care of emotions like anger, aversion or desire - in most cases it does not. This might require more looking.
It is great that you are looking for the I in the gap - you don't find it. That is great!
You know there is no owner, no I, being angry, but anger can still arise... What a paradox!
Maybe it doesn't require an I for anger to arise..? Maybe nothing requires an I to arise... Thus seeing through the I-illusion does not automatically get rid of all negative "I-traits" - BUT: it is the base for all further inquiry :-)
I must exist because I can feel it in the body. But it's just a contraction.
Yes, just a contraction. Look for this I that feels the contraction. If you don't exist, then who feels the contraction?
It sounds illogical right? A contraction is being felt, but no I can be found that feels it...
When you look at a tree, a cup, an apple... Is the I looking?
I picture that as a state of more openness. Instead of a tightening up around a separate self and a physical body that need to be protected and maintained at any cost, there must be a release of that contraction or tension and through that a dropping of the idea of an 'I' and an openness to what is.
Yes, it could be described like that, but better don't picture a state - otherwise you will miss the real thing when it happens as it doesn't fit into your picture.

Alex

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white66cloud
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Re: Give me the final push, please!

Postby white66cloud » Fri Sep 09, 2016 8:06 am

When you are in the "gap" look if there is anything in it? Is there an "I" thought in the gap at all? Or is the "I" thought already part of the reaction?
Look closely and see what you find... Is there anything that bridges the gap from sensations to reaction? Can the I-thought do that?
Oh, no of course not! There is no I-thought in that gap. Only awareness. Reaction and I-thought are indeed one. If no I-thought there - no reaction. Simple. The I-thought can't really do anything since it has no substance, hence it's unable to bridge that gap. Seems more clear now.
Do any of these reactions qualify as the statement "I am angry!"?
Well, if there is no I there that experiences anger, then of course it can't be said that "I am angry". This would not be logical. They are simply reactions and 'anger' is simply the label stuck to them.
I know there is this concept - which has often been stated in different books - that there is a self, an ego, that tries to maintain its continuity... But being perfectly honest, how would that work? A process is simply a collection of (unrelated) events that are then labelled as self, anger etc.. Can this process really have a goal? Can it have a strategy? Or is this also just a story?
The 'I' seems to want to perpetuate itself. Almost as if it had a strategy to not only to maintain itself but to stay in control. If this is not so, then where does this idea come from, and how can the I-thought be invested with such power? When you think about it it does strike you as not very plausible; how could the 'I', which is just thought, have any intelligence at all to maintain itself? It's like some kind of myth, but a powerful one.
While there seems to be pattern there is no character to be found that owns the pattern, is there? Maybe the pattern is the character?
Hahaha! Yes of course there is no character there that could follow or own any pattern. How stupid!
Maybe it doesn't require an I for anger to arise..? Maybe nothing requires an I to arise...
Anger just arises. But then anger is not intrinsically 'bad' or negative, is it? It just is. Once claimed as an individual experience by the I it is given some value. I understand anger, desire etc will continue for some time.
Yes, just a contraction. Look for this I that feels the contraction. If you don't exist, then who feels the contraction?
It sounds illogical right? A contraction is being felt, but no I can be found that feels it...
When you look at a tree, a cup, an apple... Is the I looking?
There is simply contraction. When looking there is only seeing. There is no 'I' seeing. Simply a process. This is crystal clear.

/seth

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Alexw
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Re: Give me the final push, please!

Postby Alexw » Sat Sep 10, 2016 5:29 am

Hi Seth,

Some great observations there! Well done!

How do you feel right now? Is there any difference to before we started this dialogue?
Is there any doubt left regarding the illusory nature of this separate self/I?
Have you seen clearly that there is no separate self and that there never even was one to begin with?
Please write in some detail how life presents itself now that this has been seen.

Is there anything that you would like to explore in some more detail?
Free will, choice, decisions? Do you have a choice what to do next?

Alex

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white66cloud
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Re: Give me the final push, please!

Postby white66cloud » Mon Sep 12, 2016 9:08 am

Hi Alex,
How do you feel right now? Is there any difference to before we started this dialogue?
It feels very good most of the time. Yes, there is a difference...but still the same, somehow. There is a feeling of openness, joy, intense love for everything and a lightness. There have been days of great laughter and tears of joy, and also days of confusion and frustration. It feels like a shift in perspective; nothing added and nothing taken away. It feels natural and simple, obvious in a way.

There are no more doubts regarding the nature of the I. It was never a solid reality - just a concept. The only solid reality is awareness. Once seen it can never be lost, nor forgotten. It's impossible to be away from, or outside of, awareness. The I-thought may reassert itself, but it will never again be mistaken for being the 'true' self.
Please write in some detail how life presents itself now that this has been seen.
Experience is thinking, sensing and perceiving. That is all. Hearing, seeing, touching, tasting...but no I or person is involved in that. When this is seem, it's like seeing for the first time. It's more 'naked' and direct. There is nothing in-between to shield you from what is experienced now. The middleman is removed so to speak. The wonderful is more intensely wonderful. The horrible more intensely horrible. Awareness rejects nothing and accepts everything.
Right now there is the sensation of the seat against the wooden floor, the low whine of the laptop fan, fingers typing words, eyes seeing the screen. The heart is pumping blood through the body, there is breathing, digestion takes place, automatically it seems... But no person is doing this - it is being done. Very simple.

There is no free will. If there is no separate self how could there be free will? We are simply stories being lived. There is no doer present doing anything. The idea of an individual controller in the mind / body is absurd. Are we not part of the same system or flow of life as everything else? Plants don't make choices or decisions, and neither do we.
Seeing through the illusory mature of the separate self is not the end; it's more like the first step. This is where it all begins. Now things will start to unravel. I don't believe we have any choice after seeing, it's the death of the 'I', then we can simply buckle up and enjoy the ride :-)

/seth

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Alexw
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Re: Give me the final push, please!

Postby Alexw » Tue Sep 13, 2016 5:24 am

Hi Seth,
This is where it all begins. Now things will start to unravel. I don't believe we have any choice after seeing, it's the death of the 'I', then we can simply buckle up and enjoy the ride :-)
Yes - This is where it all begins :-)
Well, it was a great pleasure talking to you on this LU gate forum. I would like to invite you to join us on the LU Facebook groups. There are many different groups for further exploration and I am sure you will find a few gems in the conversations that are happening there. If you would like to join, please send me a private message on this forum with a link to your FB page so I can friend you and invite you to the relevant groups.

Also, if you like, we can explore some more about the nature of awareness etc - this could be done in the Further Looking section of this forum which you will be able to access once an admin has "upgraded" your account from green to blue...

All the best,
Alex

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white66cloud
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Re: Give me the final push, please!

Postby white66cloud » Tue Sep 13, 2016 8:16 am

Thank you Alex. I appreciate that you took the time to point out the obvious to me. It would have taken a lot longer without your help. What you do is really precious.

I'm not on FB so I'll have to settle for the Further Looking forum, which I'm sure will be rewarding :-)

Thanks once again.

Peace,

/seth

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Alexw
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Re: Give me the final push, please!

Postby Alexw » Tue Sep 13, 2016 8:27 am

Hi Seth,

OK, no problem.

Let me know when/if you would like to continue. Once you can access the Further Looking forum I can start a thread and we can continue exploring or, if you prefer, you can also ask for a new guide - simply create a new post in the Further Looking section asking for further guidance. The decision is yours and I am happy with whatever you decide.

Alex


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