The I-thing

[Damon Kamda]

What's problematic about that thought exactly?

Do these thoughts disappear when the I-habit is being unlearned?

If you were to make a point of unlearning the I-habit, sure, you could make these types of thoughts subside.

That, however, is not really the point here, unlearning the I-habit.

What we're attempting to do here is get you to look so deeply and honestly at what is or was considered to be you that it is completely seen for what it has always been- a fiction.

There is no self regardless of the content of the thoughts that arise, and this can be clearly seen to have always been the case.

So here's a couple of questions for you:

• Is there a you, at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
• Explain in detail what the self is and how it works.

Take your time. Thanks.

[Matt]

Glad to hear that!

Here is a problematic thought:

I want to be praised. (Stupid as this is.)
I want to be praised, and I am stupid.

This doesn't work without constructing an I-entity. Or what?

Do these thoughts disappear when the I-habit is being unlearned?

Dear Ingen,
When I look deeply, I see there are no problematic thoughts, no possibility of constructing an I-entity, and no need for thoughts to disappear or be unlearned. Take a good LOOK for yourself, and then tell us why I might say such a thing!

[Ilona]

Iknowgod,
Tell us, what happens when you look directly at this statement.

There is no self at all in real life. There is no separate entity behind label 'I'. There is no 'me' that owns life and is in charge.

Notice feelings and thoughts. What comes up?

[Ingen]

When I look deeply, I see there are no problematic thoughts, no possibility of constructing an I-entity, and no need for thoughts to disappear or be unlearned. Take a good LOOK for yourself, and then tell us why I might say such a thing!

Because everything takes place and does its thing no matter what thoughts appear.

[Ingen]

Tell us, what happens when you look directly at this statement.
There is no self at all in real life. There is no separate entity behind label 'I'. There is no 'me' that owns life and is in charge.

I get a bit dizzy.
The center of gravity, or aliveness, seems to shift to the "outside", to what I see around me. To the space around me.
I am still here, though. Clinging to the I-story although I see it is a story. It is a habit.

[Damon Kamda]

And this clinging, can you describe that? The feeling of it?

[Ingen]

It disappears as soon as I try to describe it. Everything disappears when I try to describe it. Is there a self? No. Is there clinging? No. Is there a computer? Yes. Are there feelings? Yes.
Are there decisions? Yes.
Is there a self who is doing the decisions? Hm.
There are movements. There is a lot of movements which just happen (wriggling, scratching, typing). They never got decided by anyone. There are a few "now I will prove that I decide myself"-movements (finger tapping). These are the only ones I manage to put an "I-did-this"-label on. But also those get labeled after the fact, i think. Something decides which movements are appropriate right here right now. There is a big set of social rules and impulses hanging in the air, (in my brain) which decides what is happening.

There are waves of impulses "fighting" which each other which results in decisions.

Not very clear, sorry. I'm just pouring out what comes to my mind.

[Damon Kamda]

No, it's very clear, don't worry.

The next time this sensation of clinging to an I-thought appears in all its strength, see if you can really get 'behind' the feeling. Is there anything behind it? Does the label 'I' ever actually refer to a concrete entity?

[Matt]

Yes, what Nomad Kamda said.
And if you like, try to create an i-entity and see what happens!

• Can you create a 'you'?
• Was there ever a you, at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
• Explain in detail what the self is and how it works.

[Ingen]

It is not necessary to create a me. Here it is, now, in full bloom and as active and convincing as ever.
I (!) don't want to be the only one in this fucking houshold who is picking things up! I (!) want to sit at the computer contemplating my existence instead of cleaning the house again! 

see if you can really get 'behind' the feeling. Is there anything behind it? Does the label 'I' ever actually refer to a concrete entity?

It refers to the one body doing the picking up. Anger arises. The i- thought is claiming it. 

I am theorizing. *i*am angry, period.

What now...

[Ingen]

The anger is a huge wave of impulses, getting nearly all (conscious brain) estate. And as anger habitually goes with the I- thought, or the other way round, the identification is so strong.

Again.

Preferences are coming up, with power. A story is made up about the poor-me.
No real I involved.

I see that first now after the anger has evaporated, though

[Life]

Just to be clear this is not about contemplating your existence for that there are other places, nor is it about what you want. This is about looking in your actual experience, what is really there.

So there is now anger, when something nice happens there is happiness, when someone dies there is sadness. Emotions, thoughts, life in general is always changing. But is there anything experiencing that or are there just emotions, no self experiencing that?


Can you see that the story about the poor me is only a thought? And also thought that claims the poor me to be you?

[Damon Kamda]

Preferences are coming up, with power. A story is made up about the poor-me.
No real I involved.

Is there ever a real I involved? Was there ever a real I? Will there ever be a real I?

The occurence of preferences or aversions- does this ever mean that a self exists?
The occurence of anything whatsoever- does this ever mean that a self exists?

Ingen, there has never been a self. There has never been a you living life. That one has always only been a figment of the imagination. You've known this. You've seen this. It is so goddamn obvious that we are afraid to really see how true this is. Like you said: "it is all a big circus, and we pretend not to know and hide behind our cosy characters...". Except no one is hiding.

I just want to get back to your answers to Ilona's question about expectations about liberation, you wrote:

- Know the truth, permanently. Not only while thinking about it.
- Feel free. Free from judging myself and others constantly. Free from the fear of failing.
- Stop obsessing about appearances - body, success, money etc.

You're tightening the knot even more- all these are control issues that presuppose the existence of the very thing we are trying to recognize as having always been absent.

Who is there to know the truth? Is there a thinker who can have or own the truth by thinking about it?
Who is there to feel free? Who is the judger? Who is there to be afraid?
Who is there to be obsessed about appearances?

Freedom does not mean freedom from feelings, thoughts, judgments, obsessions, experiences. All these are part of the flow of life. Freedom consists in recognizing that all this is happening to no one.

[Ingen]

Thank you for your patience and your time. This is helpful input. Much appreciated!

You're tightening the knot even more- all these are control issues that presuppose the existence of the very thing we are trying to recognize as having always been absent.

Yes, that is it. That is what is happening. Fear of losing control.

Was there ever a me controlling? No. There is just space, where fear and the wish for control and everything else shows up.

[Life]

No. There is just space, where fear and the wish for control and everything else shows up.

What do you mean by space? There is space and fear and the wish for control and everything else that shows up. And this comes up in consciousness.

Nontheless very good your very close. So there is seen there is no self at all? Did anything change?