Per aspera ad astra

[Aspera]

Hi Jon

...Well, perhaps we could say that 'self' is imagined? Somehow it is frequently imagined that there is a self. It is seen that the imagined person is not a real, unchanging entity.

It can be seen that there is no real control, but control is nevertheless imagined. ... Does this ring true

It is logical that if 'self' is imagined, then the control is imagined too. the trouble is that I have not yet fully arrived at the 'imagined self' comprehension- see the response to you second question below.

Perhaps behaviour just happens the way it does and there are thoughts about it being 'my behaviour'? Could it be that when you do not suddenly jump out in front of a car there is no control being done by a you not to jump?

If I get up to make a cup of tea it can be imagined that 'I control' this. You may like to explore this right now? You come back with the hot drink and sit down again. But was there 'controlling the body to walk in a coordinated way,' or did walking simply happen? Is there Any part of the process where a controller controlling it all is found,...other than an idea of one. And yet tea making happens very smoothly, quite predictably. So what's going on?

I agree that going and getting a matcha latte at the café and coming back to my computer to type a response sort of happens i.e. 'I' am not constantly co-ordinating each step of the process, walking, paying, putting money in my purse, holding the cup, drinking etc. But there are constant processes occurring in my brain, nervous system which are making those movements happen. Its just there is no intricate enough sense we have that can experience our neurons working. Similar to our hearing - it is not powerful enough to hear the ultrasound, but it doesn't mean that there is no unltrasound.

This may sound weird but take a look right here and now to see if 'mind' can be found in experience?

What I can experience are thoughts appearing, and if the mind can be defined as something that experiences thoughts, then I would say that there is 'mind'

Your 'relative' life is real enough and may need changes. If my hand is in the fire I will pull it out fast, self or no self.

But to address most of what you say here about wanting lots of things to be different. Hard as it may sound, try what you did with the physical pain, of looking directly at it. Don't resist this stuff. See what happens.

If I look at those feelings, I can see that there are more thoughts about those feelings, i.e. ' I don't want these feelings, they are painful, they are difficult', it's like a second level of resistance is there. When I look at my experience this way, it feels a bit easier, I can sort of see that wanting things to be different partly stems from conditioning , comparing myself to others. But it feels like there is a deeper yearning for things to be different and I can not link certain thoughts to it. The process of looking at it seems a bit like crying, tears diminish for a bit, but then all of the sudden there is a another wave of crying, i.e. another layer of pain is being uncovered and felt. And weirdly there is a part in me that clings to that pain, that doesn't want to let it go as it has been identified with this pain for all these years. This identification mechanism is like a parasite I am finding difficult to shake off.

Love

Agata

[JonathanR]

Hi Agata,

There is a lot in your post but let's look at one thing just now.

. The process of looking at it seems a bit like crying, tears diminish for a bit, but then all of the sudden there is a another wave of crying, i.e. another layer of pain is being uncovered and felt

Is that a bad thing?

. And weirdly there is a part in me that clings to that pain, that doesn't want to let it go as it has been identified with this pain for all these years. This identification mechanism is like a parasite I am finding difficult to shake off.

Right. Ok. Identification is key.

It is a very good thing to notice this identification, with 'me' as 'pain'.


Look to see if this pain is owned. Is there an owner of pain?

Is there an 'I' anywhere in experience that owns pain?


Love,

Jon

[Aspera]

HI Jon

Is that a bad thing?

I don't think its a bad thing, however as this process can feel uncomfortable and requires persistence as naturally the tendency is to avoid rather than to go deeper and face these feelings. Essentially there is no pain, which we would not be able to handle. Similar to the experiences of immense joy I've had- it can feel overwhelming, but it can not harm me, there is no need to fear it.

Look to see if this pain is owned. Is there an owner of pain? Is there an 'I' anywhere in experience that owns pain?

This one is a bit tricky to respond as it tends to vary depending on how alert I am. If I am very busy then certainly it feels like its my pain and the thoughts keep flooding in, reinforcing the pain and even somewhat guiding my behavior. For instance, most of my team were working in a different office yesterday, but this colleague of mine who really triggers me. SO instead od going to the office and working with her I asked my managed if I could work from home instead to avoid the pain of discomfort of working with her in one room.

If I'm really present and can explore the pain, the ownership of it sort of lessens. There are sensations, usually in my chest and if I start thinking about all the things I would like to be different , I can almost feel like someone is stabbing my chest. The pain is then an illusion consisting of thoughts and feelings, so I basically we label the uncomfortable thoughts and feelings as pain

Love

Agata

[JonathanR]

Hi Agata,

Essentially there is no pain, which we would not be able to handle. Similar to the experiences of immense joy I've had- it can feel overwhelming, but it can not harm me, there is no need to fear it.

True, we can't find a self, a 'me' that could be 'harmed'. But sensations of pain are really experienced, don't you find?

Are you saying that pain is not real because there is no self to experience pain?

Could it be more like this: that primary sensations such as aching back are experienced directly but there is simply no fixed, unchanging self present that 'handles' or 'doesn't handle' pain?

This one is a bit tricky to respond as it tends to vary depending on how alert I am. If I am very busy then certainly it feels like its my pain and the thoughts keep flooding in, reinforcing the pain and even somewhat guiding my behavior.

Yes, this is how it seems, for sure.

Does this in any way make a 'self' appear for real.? There is a habitual thought appearing 'my pain' and the experience of actual pain.

What can be found that owns this pain?

. SO instead od going to the office and working with her I asked my managed if I could work from home instead to avoid the pain of discomfort of working with her in one room.

So pain is really experienced. And what you did sounds practical. Do you feel you should be able to put up with ant amount of pain?

.
If I'm really present and can explore the pain, the ownership of it sort of lessens. There are sensations, usually in my chest and if I start thinking about all the things I would like to be different , I can almost feel like someone is stabbing my chest. The pain is then an illusion consisting of thoughts and feelings, so I basically we label the uncomfortable thoughts and feelings as pain

Well that's excellent!

Do you feel that 'no self' should make it possible to never experience pain or thoughts that refer to pain?

Love

Jon

[Aspera]

Hi Jon

True, we can't find a self, a 'me' that could be 'harmed'. But sensations of pain are really experienced, don't you find?

Are you saying that pain is not real because there is no self to experience pain?

Could it be more like this: that primary sensations such as aching back are experienced directly but there is simply no fixed, unchanging self present that 'handles' or 'doesn't handle' pain?

I was referring more to the emotional pain than manifests itself in the body as sensation. And then a thought label is created for this sensation - 'unbearable' for instance. Then the belief is created that we cant handle pain. The physical pain is real because it is felt but the emotional is not, as it is manufactured. Yes and I like your explanation that there is no unchanging self that handles or doesn't handle the pain.

So pain is really experienced. And what you did sounds practical. Do you feel you should be able to put up with ant amount of pain?

It's a difficult one.. Today I was wondering about my Goddaughter who lives on the other side of the UK. I love her to bits but whenever I visit her I see how neglected she is and a lot of emotional turmoil and pain is experienced as a result. Therefore I don't visit her very often as I know I will return in a state on shock and real sadness and feelings of helplessness about the situation. And I don't know if its right for me to limit the amount of times I see her to avoid the pain..We can not avoid the emotional pain as it can come upon us any time by loss of a loved one etc. But in the cases where we have the choice- to subject ourselves or not to the situation that is going to cause the pain? I guess it can be decided case by case scenario and the decision fully accepted

Do you feel that 'no self' should make it possible to never experience pain or thoughts that refer to pain?

I don't think 'no self' will make this possible. I guess the pain will lessen as there wont be as much clinging to the pain or thoughts referring to the pain. That will allow the pain to pass through more easily, sort of wash through. And it will be an ongoing journey- noticing that pain or thoughts, allowing them to be there as I guess there will be oneness with the pain. When pain will be felt then that is what the direct experience will be , it will be felt but there wont be underlying thoughts 'this is my pain' , 'it is unfair to experience it', there will be just these raw sensation of pain manifesting.
Love

Agata

Love

Agata

[JonathanR]

Hi Agata

I was referring more to the emotional pain than manifests itself in the body as sensation. And then a thought label is created for this sensation - 'unbearable' for instance. Then the belief is created that we cant handle pain. The physical pain is real because it is felt but the emotional is not, as it is manufactured. Yes and I like your explanation that there is no unchanging self that handles or doesn't handle the pain.

Good looking!

It's a difficult one.. Today I was wondering about my Goddaughter who lives on the other side of the UK. I love her to bits but whenever I visit her I see how neglected she is and a lot of emotional turmoil and pain is experienced as a result. Therefore I don't visit her very often as I know I will return in a state on shock and real sadness and feelings of helplessness about the situation. And I don't know if its right for me to limit the amount of times I see her to avoid the pain..We can not avoid the emotional pain as it can come upon us any time by loss of a loved one etc. But in the cases where we have the choice- to subject ourselves or not to the situation that is going to cause the pain? I guess it can be decided case by case scenario and the decision fully accepted

This is a very hard thing. I'm sorry.

I don't think 'no self' will make this possible. I guess the pain will lessen as there wont be as much clinging to the pain or thoughts referring to the pain. That will allow the pain to pass through more easily, sort of wash through. And it will be an ongoing journey- noticing that pain or thoughts, allowing them to be there as I guess there will be oneness with the pain. When pain will be felt then that is what the direct experience will be , it will be felt but there wont be underlying thoughts 'this is my pain' , 'it is unfair to experience it', there will be just these raw sensation of pain manifesting.

Excellent.

Well, there may sometimes be thoughts about 'my pain' or 'it ought not to be happening' that appear alonside sensations of pain. But the emptiness of these thoughts is noticed now, ins't it? Apart from occasions where they can go unnoticed for a while?

Is it clear that the 'self' that seemed to 'own' or 'be' these thoughts was always just an assumption?

Is it clear that such thoughts do not have an owner?

Pain is experienced but where is the owner of pain, other than in thoughts?


love

Jon

[JonathanR]

HI Agata,

I noticed our thread had disappeared onto page two. Are you still finding this inquiry uncomfortable?

Let me know how you are getting on?

love,

Jon

[Aspera]

Hi Jon
Sorry for not being in touch for so long, I am currently away on holiday until next Tuesday and didn't manage to let you know beforehand.

Hope it's okay and that I can resume next Tuesday.

Love

Agata

[JonathanR]

Hi Agata,

Ok. I'll check back on Tuesday.

love

Jon

[Aspera]

Hi Jon

Well, there may sometimes be thoughts about 'my pain' or 'it ought not to be happening' that appear alonside sensations of pain. But the emptiness of these thoughts is noticed now, ins't it? Apart from occasions where they can go unnoticed for a while?

Is it clear that the 'self' that seemed to 'own' or 'be' these thoughts was always just an assumption?

Is it clear that such thoughts do not have an owner?

Pain is experienced but where is the owner of pain, other than in thoughts?

Yes, I can notice that the thoughts are not real, they are just the thoughts in cases when they are noticed. In most cases I still have those thoughts slip through and some more thoughts around the topic occurs. Especially now that i didn't have much time to do self-inquiry the tendency to churn thoughts intensified, but they were noticed much more often that when i started the process with you.

And it is clear to me what you are stating above - it is clear more still in my mind when i think about it, than when the actual experience happens. I can see the illusion clearly but still caught up in it as I mention above. I had some more unpleasant things happen to me like getting the speeding fine and my phone breaking just before the holiday so it was very stressful as i had to get last minute phone without having budgeted for it. And i still have thoughts 'why me' etc as these sort of mishaps are just ongoing in my life now. But there is much less 'pain' generated when i notice what is going through my head.

Thank you so much for your patience, really do apologize for recent luck of response, and really grateful for all the time you have invested helping me

Love

Agata

[JonathanR]

Hi Agata,

Great to read your post. Lets take a look at what you have said.

Yes, I can notice that the thoughts are not real, they are just the thoughts in cases when they are noticed. In most cases I still have those thoughts slip through and some more thoughts around the topic occurs. Especially now that i didn't have much time to do self-inquiry the tendency to churn thoughts intensified, but they were noticed much more often that when i started the process with you.

Good. You have described very well how thoughts can be seen and that sometimes they appear more active or prevalent.

When you say 'In most cases I still have those thoughts slip through', ....do you remember I once asked you if any thought could be prevented from appearing? Look now.

1) Is it possible to prevent any thought from happening?

2) Is it possible to prevent thoughts from appearing including the thought 'I'?

Is there an idea of having to prevent thoughts from 'slipping through'? And behind this an idea of a 'me' that has to stand guard in some way?

it is clear more still in my mind when i think about it, than when the actual experience happens.

Good, but great clarity can appear at the moment of the actual experience. For example I was once quite ill with relentless pain. I just lay there and did not push the pain away but noticed it fully. Mostly the experience was that the pain was real but for a moment it was seen that there is no 'sufferer' and that it wasn't 'my pain'. The sensation continued but the tension and 'suffering' vanished.

However I appreciate that whilst there is a lot going on, difficult challenges and so on, and there is chronic pain too, there will sometimes seem to be a self that suffers. If there is any secret it's to not resist pain, not resist thoughts and don't resist resistance.

When we guide at The Gate, the aim is to assist you to see that there is no self. It isn't terribly complicated or difficult and you have been willing to look simply and directly at experience each time I have asked you to do so. And you have been consistent in reporting that no self is found in direct experience. You also found no 'chooser' or 'decider'. But bodily pain and trying circumstances have made noisy thoughts of 'me' appear quite a lot and these noisy thoughts claim attention.

love

Jon

[Aspera]

Hi Jon

Is there an idea of having to prevent thoughts from 'slipping through'? And behind this an idea of a 'me' that has to stand guard in some way?

Yes, I do remember those questions and the answer to them was 'no', it is not possible to prevent the thoughts. If I look deeper then there is definitely an idea about having to prevent them and an 'i' that somehow needs to be vigilant enough to monitor those thoughts. In this case i'm not quite sure how the process of noticing these thoughts and not getting caught up in them supposed to happen. Is it just going to start automatically and some days more thoughts will be there unnoticed and other days their content will be noticed more and hence not trigger negative emotions, further negative thorughts?

Thank you for sharing your experience, it is really reassuring, as it feels like I am going around in circles with this inquiry and not progressing.. Its just my experience is quite erratic currently, as I learn to view things differently, my state can range from tremendous peace to unbearable pain. It feels like there is so much that I have accumulate and not felt that now that i'm letting it all come up, it is overwhelming. Like today I was feeling the discomfort for several hours and it feels like I have lived with that discomfort all my life. I want to run away from it, switch on TV, but I don't and feel the pain instead which temporarory lightens. And then I know tomorrow I will go to work and the discomfort is going to be there, its like discomfort of being me - no matter where I go, no matter what I do, it just follows. I know that there is no 'me' but this crippling discomfort is still there..

Love

Agata

[JonathanR]

Hi Agata,

Yes, I do remember those questions and the answer to them was 'no', it is not possible to prevent the thoughts. If I look deeper then there is definitely an idea about having to prevent them and an 'i' that somehow needs to be vigilant enough to monitor those thoughts. In this case i'm not quite sure how the process of noticing these thoughts and not getting caught up in them supposed to happen.

OK, well, in reality, right now and in every moment of looking, is it ever possible to find a 'me' a separate, unchanging entity that constitutes 'Agata'?

If not, the 'getting caught up in thoughts' is its self a thought about an assumed 'someone' that seems to get caught up, isn't it?

( Quite a slippery fish, thought). If you don't get this don't think about it too much but check in direct experience to find that 'Agata' that can get caught up.

Is it just going to start automatically and some days more thoughts will be there unnoticed and other days their content will be noticed more and hence not trigger negative emotions, further negative thoughts?

Yes and no. The beauty of this inquiry is that when all options are exhausted the penny drops. Then, any time you care to check it is clear that there is no self. So clearly that seeing this from time to time happens without effort. Previously held beliefs that were part of the self-identification start to fall away. That seems to already be happening.

However, negative emotions and negative thoughts may appear. But these can be investigated too with further guiding or inquiry. There are quite a few resources available. In fact, what is a negative emotion more than an enegetic sensation linked to a thought 'I feel negative'? Anyway, this can be seen though.

A nice exercise to try now might be to relax and just notice thoughts appearing. After a few moments look to see if it is possible to notice a gap between the end of one thought and the begining of the next? What do you find?

Thank you for sharing your experience, it is really reassuring, as it feels like I am going around in circles with this inquiry and not progressing.. Its just my experience is quite erratic currently, as I learn to view things differently, my state can range from tremendous peace to unbearable pain. It feels like there is so much that I have accumulate and not felt that now that i'm letting it all come up, it is overwhelming. Like today I was feeling the discomfort for several hours and it feels like I have lived with that discomfort all my life. I want to run away from it, switch on TV, but I don't and feel the pain instead which temporarory lightens. And then I know tomorrow I will go to work and the discomfort is going to be there, its like discomfort of being me - no matter where I go, no matter what I do, it just follows. I know that there is no 'me' but this crippling discomfort is still there..

Not at all pleasant. I am sorry. Sometimes the newness of going through the gateless gate, of seeing that there is no self can be uncomfortable and difficult as many changes can happen. This is where it is a good idea to join the LU Aftercare group.

I don't think you are going round in circles. You have said now that you have seen no self. But this has created a lot of questions and turbulence. I would like to ask you a series of final questions, including some that I already did ask you. Would that be OK?

I'd like you to reflect on what I have said about the possibility of further guiding and that what we are doing in this inquiry is simply exhausting any doubts that a separate self may exist or that there may be 'control' or 'decisions'.

love

Jon

[Aspera]

Hi Jon

OK, well, in reality, right now and in every moment of looking, is it ever possible to find a 'me' a separate, unchanging entity that constitutes 'Agata'?

If not, the 'getting caught up in thoughts' is its self a thought about an assumed 'someone' that seems to get caught up, isn't it?

Yes this makes sense, whenever the looking happens(which happens randomly) there is no 'me' found. Usually it happens when the experience is uncomfortable though and seeing that there is on self helps to alleviate the tension . it's quite tricky to wrap my head around the fact that 'getting cought up in thoughts' is just a thought, as the process of identifying with the thoughts really happens vs moments when thoughts can be observed.

A nice exercise to try now might be to relax and just notice thoughts appearing. After a few moments look to see if it is possible to notice a gap between the end of one thought and the begining of the next? What do you find?

I cant even notice the beginning of the thought- i only notice the thought as it has already passed my head and then consequently i can not notice the gaps either. Thinking is not a linear process when one thought follows the next like when someone is narrating a film. As there are so many external stimuli nowadays, there seem to be cluster of thoughts happening so close together where one thought can be sort of thought halfway through, when a text message comes to your phone and you start thinking about the response to that message instantly.

I don't think you are going round in circles. You have said now that you have seen no self. But this has created a lot of questions and turbulence. I would like to ask you a series of final questions, including some that I already did ask you. Would that be OK?

Yes, sure, that would be okay, i'll answer without looking at my previous reply, based on my current experience.

I'd like you to reflect on what I have said about the possibility of further guiding and that what we are doing in this inquiry is simply exhausting any doubts that a separate self may exist or that there may be 'control' or 'decisions'.

Yes, that would be helpful if i could have some further guiding to help with issues that are still coming up.

love

Agata

[JonathanR]

Hi Agata,

I cant even notice the beginning of the thought- i only notice the thought as it has already passed my head and then consequently i can not notice the gaps either. Thinking is not a linear process when one thought follows the next like when someone is narrating a film. As there are so many external stimuli nowadays, there seem to be cluster of thoughts happening so close together where one thought can be sort of thought halfway through, when a text message comes to your phone and you start thinking about the response to that message instantly.

Don't worry about this. I know what you mean.


Here are some questions that are not the six you answered before (those will come soon) but please answer these first, one at a time:


Have you been able to find, a ‘self’ that is the ‘experiencer’?

Or a self that is the doer, or can control what happens?

Or a self that ‘makes’ decisions?

Or a self who ‘does the thinking’?

Is the "body" just another thought label for sensations (namely tactile & kinesthetic)?

Are the five body senses made to arise or experienced by this ‘self’?

Is there a self ‘in here’ which is separate from the world and others ‘out there’?

Is there doubt or unclarity that in all these cases the ‘self’ is nothing other than a mental fabrication?

And finally:

Are there any doubts about seeing through the illusion of separate self?

love

Jon