In a rented house in Brook Street

[Hannapple]

Evening Nina,

If there never has been a "you", what could possibly change?
It is just a thought that says there is something to let go of.
There is nothing to let go of.
It is time to see what has always been there.

The stories will be there after the gate. The difference is that it will be clear what is a story and what isn't.

That feels like deep relaxation in my body. My shoulders dropped.

A "brain" cannot be found in actual experience other than as a thought label.
Is it possible to see this is all it is? A thought label?
A thought label for something nobody really understands?

Yes. I can see this. I cannot find or experience my brain.

Is memory different from any other thought?
Or is it just a thought?
Is there another thought saying "this is about the past"?

No, I don't think memory is different from other thoughts. Memories pop up, they disappear, they stick, they move on. In exactly the same way as every thought. Memory is thought. I sense that clearly. "I used to love him" comes in the same as "we need milk for breakfast'. They have different emotional tones but yes, thoughts. And yes, thoughts place thoughts in their time lines.

Are there as many "mes" as there are thoughts?

Yes. I could endlessly come up with thoughts of me.

Is there a "me" anywhere else in actual experience other than in thought?

No. Thought conjours up the me. I sat outside on my balcony in the twilight, in the breeze, doing nothing, no effort. Just for a little while. And I stopped and the breeze breezed, the sensation 'chilly' was felt, leaves rustled in the trees and it was deeply relaxing.

Is it possible to find an "I" outside thought?

No.

Is there another thought saying "yes, you are definately Hannah"?
And another thought saying "look at all these memory thoughts - I am definately Hannah"?
And another thought saying "Hannah loves thoughts"?

Not right now. They didn't come. I feel tired of listening to those thoughts.

What is saying "I strongly want to believe it"?
Is it another thought?

Of course.

What are all these "I"s and "me"s in actual experience?
If there is just experience flowing - just experience happening - what is the "I" and "me"?
Two days ago it was seen that "I" was a "symbol".
How are "symbols" known in actual experience?
Are symbols sound, colour, smell, taste, sensation or thought labels?

These 'i's and 'me's in actual experience are thoughts. I think the I.
Experience is just flowing. My 'I' gets in the way of me experiencing. The 'i' and 'me' are thoughts. Symbols aren't known in actual experience. They are constructs and thoughts- shorthands to make life 'simpler'. Symbols are thought labels. They don't have sound, colour, smell, taste or sensation. They are thought.

I've been caught in thoughts and stresses- first day of school tomorrow, new job for me on Monday, applying for a psychotherapy course. So much thought!!! Now I feel 'stopped'. Relaxed. Tired.

Thanks you Nina,

Love Hannah x

[Nina45]

Good morning Hannah!

Hope the school run went ok!

No, I don't think memory is different from other thoughts. Memories pop up, they disappear, they stick, they move on. In exactly the same way as every thought. Memory is thought.

Great :) :) :)

Thought conjours up the me. I sat outside on my balcony in the twilight, in the breeze, doing nothing, no effort. Just for a little while. And I stopped and the breeze breezed, the sensation 'chilly' was felt, leaves rustled in the trees and it was deeply relaxing.

Beautiful :)

These 'i's and 'me's in actual experience are thoughts. I think the I.
The 'i' and 'me' are thoughts. Symbols aren't known in actual experience. They are constructs and thoughts- shorthands to make life 'simpler'

.

Yes! It is all thought.

Let's chip away at some more concepts.

It is possible to find things that defy labels and this can really help to see through thought.
For example, an old fallen tree in a forest. It is not a tree, it is not a log, it may even defy the label "wood". It is not bark, branches or just moss. It does seem to be a whole ecosystem for small animals and bugs ..... but is it more than that?
The beach is a good place to look too. What on earth is a beach? What are the stones on the beach? The shells? The rock pools? What is drift wood? Is it where the sea meets the land ..... or something else? What lives here? What are the sounds? Is anything the same for more than a moment? Does beach mean anything?

If it is possible, go out and have a look!!

And here is a exercise for the "body":

Sit with eyes closed for about 15 minutes (or in a dark room).
Pay attention only to the pure sensations, without relying on thoughts or mental images:

Can it be known how tall the body is?
Does the body have a weight or volume?

In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?
Is there a boundary between the body and the clothing?
Is there a boundary between the body and the chair?

Is there an inside or an outside? If there is an inside - inside of what exactly?
If there is an outside, the outside of what exactly?

What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to?
What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?

Look very carefully, especially with the last question. Take your time, don’t rush. You can look several times during the day while doing other things (like washing hands, showering, having a short break from work, walking, etc.) before replying.

Have some fun with it!

Lots of love

Nina
Xxx

[Hannapple]

Hi Nina,

i came to see if you'd replied but I can't see what i sent you last night.I replied earlier than usual, at about 8.30 but i can't see it anywhere. Any ideas? Love Hannah x

[Hannapple]

oh no, I found both mine and your reply. thank you! H x

[Hannapple]

Evening Nina,

For example, an old fallen tree in a forest. It is not a tree, it is not a log, it may even defy the label "wood". It is not bark, branches or just moss. It does seem to be a whole ecosystem for small animals and bugs ..... but is it more than that?

Isn't it all of those things and an infinite number besides- and none of them. We might reduce it in words to 'the fallen tree' and of course that would not describe the experience of what was there.

The beach is a good place to look too. What on earth is a beach? What are the stones on the beach? The shells? The rock pools? What is drift wood? Is it where the sea meets the land ..... or something else? What lives here? What are the sounds? Is anything the same for more than a moment? Does beach mean anything?

Words. I (we) use words to describe, to communicate BUT I then rely on the words and ignore the actual experience. Beach. Beach is an incredible shorthand- once again- for an infinite variety of habitats, sensations and experiences. One thing I know from living right by the sea is that it has NEVER been the same twice. The variations in my experience of going to the 'beach' are endless. I know deeply that I can never replicate an experience there- tide time, wind direction and strength, sun height, time of year, people I'm with etc etc etc etc etc all change 'beach' every time!!!! "we're going to the beach", It seems so simple and it's only a symbol of what actually happens at this peculiar place where pebbles, water, crabs, oyster catchers, anemones etc etc etc all exist and move and change infinitely. Beach is a very good example for me to see how the thought of 'beach' is so massively limited that it almost means nothing.

Can it be known how tall the body is?
Does the body have a weight or volume?

I lay on the sofa, in the dark, relaxed and calm.
No, I couldn't know how tall I was, how heavy this body was or the volume of it. My nada rested on my stomach and they seemed to meld into my stomach. there were no sharp edges, beginnings or endings.

In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?
Is there a boundary between the body and the clothing?
Is there a boundary between the body and the chair?

No, my body had no shape or form as I lay there. I was sensation, I was movement, i felt breeze. There was no boundary between the body and my clothing. i didn't particularly feel or notice my clothes. I didn't particularly notice the sofa. I was in a quiet, dark space and inside I felt spacious and edgeless and soft and amorphous.

Is there an inside or an outside? If there is an inside - inside of what exactly?
If there is an outside, the outside of what exactly?

I felt a sense of space that with my eyes shut, felt neither in or outside. It's a familiar feeling from meditation when I have a sense of spaciousness, of depth and few thoughts or when I'm able to see the thoughts coming and going without identifying or getting carried away with them.So, this time I didn't experience inside or out, I felt spaciousness and no edges, no container if you like.

What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to?
What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?

Ummmm. That's a good question. Sitting here now, at my computer, in a more 'thoughtful' approach, my body is this physical mass in front of me. As i lay on the sofa the word body didn't describe very much. There really wasn't a real and true thing IN MY EXPERIENCE called body. The experience of 'body' is sensation- there is no big mass that stays the same and feels the same and senses the same all the time. Pain and sensations come and go but they aren't stuck to this body. My asthmatic lungs don't really exist until I wheeze, then I am experiencing the sensation of a tightening chest, hearing the sound of light squeaks and whistles as the airflow is constricted, the thought of fear, the thought 'inhaler'.

Thanks Nina. The school run was sweet. My three had a good day. So did I.

Much love to you, H x x x

[Nina45]

Hello Hannah!

Beautiful description of the "not beach":

Words. I (we) use words to describe, to communicate BUT I then rely on the words and ignore the actual experience. Beach. Beach is an incredible shorthand- once again- for an infinite variety of habitats, sensations and experiences. One thing I know from living right by the sea is that it has NEVER been the same twice. The variations in my experience of going to the 'beach' are endless. I know deeply that I can never replicate an experience there- tide time, wind direction and strength, sun height, time of year, people I'm with etc etc etc etc etc all change 'beach' every time!!!! "we're going to the beach", It seems so simple and it's only a symbol of what actually happens at this peculiar place where pebbles, water, crabs, oyster catchers, anemones etc etc etc all exist and move and change infinitely. Beach is a very good example for me to see how the thought of 'beach' is so massively limited that it almost means nothing.

Here is a similar exercise to do in front of the mirror: it may be a good idea to take the instructions to a mirror or bring a mirror to the computer!

(1) First, close the eyes and feel the sensations labelled ‘body’.

(2) Then open the eyes and look into the mirror while still pay attention to the sensations.
Is there any connection between the felt sensations and the image in the mirror?
Or just thoughts (and/or mental images) suggest that there is?

(3) While still paying attention to the sensations move one hand and observe the movement from the mirror.
Is there any connection between the felt sensations (labelled ‘hand’) and image of movement in the mirror

(4) Now, pay attention only to the image in the mirror.
Does the image by itself suggest in any way that is ‘you’ or ‘your body’?
Does the image itself suggest in any way that it is a ‘body’ at all?
Or are there only colours and shapes?

(5) Study the image in the mirror closely.
Look closely at the places in the image that defy labels (e.g. lips, eyes, eye lids, cheeks etc.)
Look closely at the variation in colours.
What is observed?


Some really fantastic Looking at the "not body" Hannah!

As i lay on the sofa the word body didn't describe very much. There really wasn't a real and true thing IN MY EXPERIENCE called body. The experience of 'body' is sensation- there is no big mass that stays the same and feels the same and senses the same all the time. Pain and sensations come and go but they aren't stuck to this body. My asthmatic lungs don't really exist until I wheeze, then I am experiencing the sensation of a tightening chest, hearing the sound of light squeaks and whistles as the airflow is constricted, the thought of fear, the thought 'inhaler'.

Yes - there is just experience happening. Nothing stays the same long enough to be caught by a thought label!
So what is "body" in actual experience? .... (sensation, colour, taste, smell, sound or thought)?

Here is another exercise that may be interesting to do - an essential for anyone who has done the "mindfulness of breathing" (or would it be better named something else)?

Close your eyes and become ‘aware of breathing’. Ignore everything that thought says about breathing and what thought says happens when breathing seemingly occurs and just notice experience.

1) Notice the ‘nose’ and the ‘air’ that is being ‘breathed in and out’.
Does the sensation suggest in any way that there is a nose?
Does the sensation in any way suggest that breathing is happening ‘through the nose’?
Does the sensation in any way suggest that breathing is happening at all?
Does the sensation suggest in any way that there is ‘air’?

2) Now notice the rise and fall of the ‘chest’ and ‘abdomen’
Does the sensation suggest in any way that the chest and abdomen are ‘moving up and down with the breath’?
Does the sensation in any way suggest that breathing is happening at all?
Does the sensation suggest at all that there are ‘lungs that are expanding and contracting with air?
Does the sensation suggest in any way that there is ‘air’?

3) Now take notice of the sound of ‘breathing’.
Does the sound in any way suggest that ‘breathing’ is happening?
Does the sound in any way that there is ‘something/someone’ that is ‘breathing’?

4) Once again, notice the ‘nose’, ‘chest’ and ‘abdomen’ and the mental images that arise in response to the thought labels.
Do these images, in any way suggest that ‘breathing’ is happening?
Do these images suggest in any way that ‘movement’ is happening?


Very good luck with this Hannah!

Have fun looking.

Lots of love

Nina
xxxx

[Hannapple]

Dear Nina,

I read your reply- it was written in brown ink- and now it has disappeared from my thread. Exercises with the mirror etc. it could just be a weird glitch. Would you be able to re post it please? I'll look again but if not soon, i'll respond in the morning.

Thanks you, Hannah

[Nina45]

Hi Hannah-

It is still visable to me .... but I will post again.

[Nina45]

Hello Hannah!

Beautiful description of the "not beach":

Words. I (we) use words to describe, to communicate BUT I then rely on the words and ignore the actual experience. Beach. Beach is an incredible shorthand- once again- for an infinite variety of habitats, sensations and experiences. One thing I know from living right by the sea is that it has NEVER been the same twice. The variations in my experience of going to the 'beach' are endless. I know deeply that I can never replicate an experience there- tide time, wind direction and strength, sun height, time of year, people I'm with etc etc etc etc etc all change 'beach' every time!!!! "we're going to the beach", It seems so simple and it's only a symbol of what actually happens at this peculiar place where pebbles, water, crabs, oyster catchers, anemones etc etc etc all exist and move and change infinitely. Beach is a very good example for me to see how the thought of 'beach' is so massively limited that it almost means nothing.

Here is a similar exercise to do in front of the mirror: it may be a good idea to take the instructions to a mirror or bring a mirror to the computer!

(1) First, close the eyes and feel the sensations labelled ‘body’.

(2) Then open the eyes and look into the mirror while still pay attention to the sensations.
Is there any connection between the felt sensations and the image in the mirror?
Or just thoughts (and/or mental images) suggest that there is?

(3) While still paying attention to the sensations move one hand and observe the movement from the mirror.
Is there any connection between the felt sensations (labelled ‘hand’) and image of movement in the mirror

(4) Now, pay attention only to the image in the mirror.
Does the image by itself suggest in any way that is ‘you’ or ‘your body’?
Does the image itself suggest in any way that it is a ‘body’ at all?
Or are there only colours and shapes?

(5) Study the image in the mirror closely.
Look closely at the places in the image that defy labels (e.g. lips, eyes, eye lids, cheeks etc.)
Look closely at the variation in colours.
What is observed?


Some really fantastic Looking at the "not body" Hannah!

As i lay on the sofa the word body didn't describe very much. There really wasn't a real and true thing IN MY EXPERIENCE called body. The experience of 'body' is sensation- there is no big mass that stays the same and feels the same and senses the same all the time. Pain and sensations come and go but they aren't stuck to this body. My asthmatic lungs don't really exist until I wheeze, then I am experiencing the sensation of a tightening chest, hearing the sound of light squeaks and whistles as the airflow is constricted, the thought of fear, the thought 'inhaler'.

Yes - there is just experience happening. Nothing stays the same long enough to be caught by a thought label!
So what is "body" in actual experience? .... (sensation, colour, taste, smell, sound or thought)?

Here is another exercise that may be interesting to do - an essential for anyone who has done the "mindfulness of breathing" (or would it be better named something else)?

Close your eyes and become ‘aware of breathing’. Ignore everything that thought says about breathing and what thought says happens when breathing seemingly occurs and just notice experience.

1) Notice the ‘nose’ and the ‘air’ that is being ‘breathed in and out’.
Does the sensation suggest in any way that there is a nose?
Does the sensation in any way suggest that breathing is happening ‘through the nose’?
Does the sensation in any way suggest that breathing is happening at all?
Does the sensation suggest in any way that there is ‘air’?

2) Now notice the rise and fall of the ‘chest’ and ‘abdomen’
Does the sensation suggest in any way that the chest and abdomen are ‘moving up and down with the breath’?
Does the sensation in any way suggest that breathing is happening at all?
Does the sensation suggest at all that there are ‘lungs that are expanding and contracting with air?
Does the sensation suggest in any way that there is ‘air’?

3) Now take notice of the sound of ‘breathing’.
Does the sound in any way suggest that ‘breathing’ is happening?
Does the sound in any way that there is ‘something/someone’ that is ‘breathing’?

4) Once again, notice the ‘nose’, ‘chest’ and ‘abdomen’ and the mental images that arise in response to the thought labels.
Do these images, in any way suggest that ‘breathing’ is happening?
Do these images suggest in any way that ‘movement’ is happening?


Very good luck with this Hannah!

Have fun looking.

Lots of love

Nina
xxxx

[Hannapple]

Morning Nina,

Thank you for re posting. I've had a couple of times where threads appear to have disappeared. I've got it twice on the thread now. Anyway..

(1) First, close the eyes and feel the sensations labelled ‘body’.

(2) Then open the eyes and look into the mirror while still pay attention to the sensations.
Is there any connection between the felt sensations and the image in the mirror?
Or just thoughts (and/or mental images) suggest that there is?

No, there's no connection between the felt sensations and what i can see in the mirror. I laughed when i looked.
I guess thoughts are the connecting, 'middleman/woman'. Images know what the body looks like from the outside so those images interfere with direct sensation. But there is the seeing sense and my eyes can see this torso, these freckles, this vest top etc.

(3) While still paying attention to the sensations move one hand and observe the movement from the mirror.
Is there any connection between the felt sensations (labelled ‘hand’) and image of movement in the mirror

Oooh. That did feel more like there was a connection. I moved my hand slowly, gracefully and there did seem to be a correlation between how my hand felt and what it looked like. Is that because i started moving my hand and the image was imprinted in my mind so informed the sensations I felt?

(4) Now, pay attention only to the image in the mirror.
Does the image by itself suggest in any way that is ‘you’ or ‘your body’?
Does the image itself suggest in any way that it is a ‘body’ at all?
Or are there only colours and shapes?

It only suggest 'me' or body because my thoughts associate what I'm seeing with 'me'. The image doesn't really suggest body- it's a section of my torso in a bright vest with summer browned arms which actually all just look like globes and patterns and colours. There are only colours and shapes. It really doesn't look like body at all.

(5) Study the image in the mirror closely.
Look closely at the places in the image that defy labels (e.g. lips, eyes, eye lids, cheeks etc.)
Look closely at the variation in colours.
What is observed?

It's like seeing to photograph or to draw, where what I try to see are lines, colours, variations of pigment, dark, light, subtle shades of colour. What I can see is not eye, ear, nose etc, I can see pi k, brown, dark, darker, line, silver etc etc.

So what is "body" in actual experience? .... (sensation, colour, taste, smell, sound or thought)?

In actual experience body is sensation, and that includes what I see but when I see what is really there, without labelling as a shorthand, it is sensation of colour, shape, even smell etc. My thoughts attach the labels and almost try to shortcut my direct experience because I think I know very well what this face "Hannah' looks like but when i actually look without labels, I can see what constitutes it.

1) Notice the ‘nose’ and the ‘air’ that is being ‘breathed in and out’.
Does the sensation suggest in any way that there is a nose?
Does the sensation in any way suggest that breathing is happening ‘through the nose’?
Does the sensation in any way suggest that breathing is happening at all?
Does the sensation suggest in any way that there is ‘air’?

No, sensation doesn't suggest 'nose'.
Sensation does happen in the front of this face and I can feel air passing through- up and down- but not that it is going through the nose.
The sensation doesn't suggest that breathing is happening. What is breathing?!
What is 'air'?!

2) Now notice the rise and fall of the ‘chest’ and ‘abdomen’
Does the sensation suggest in any way that the chest and abdomen are ‘moving up and down with the breath’?
Does the sensation in any way suggest that breathing is happening at all?
Does the sensation suggest at all that there are ‘lungs that are expanding and contracting with air?
Does the sensation suggest in any way that there is ‘air’?

No, the sensation doesn't suggest that the chest and abdomen are moving up and down. There is a process of something though. I can feel something but not the abdomen/chest specifically.
Breathing is a thought so no, the sensation doesn't suggest that. I feel movement, maybe in and out, maybe up and down, I feel and hear something at the front of my face but it is just sensation.
Definitely I have son sense of lungs contracting or expanding.
Air?! No, there is no suggestion of 'air'.

3) Now take notice of the sound of ‘breathing’.
Does the sound in any way suggest that ‘breathing’ is happening?
Does the sound in any way that there is ‘something/someone’ that is ‘breathing’?

The sound is a sound. A tiny sound. It doesn't suggest anything other than sound.
No, I can't sense someone/something breathing from the sound.

4) Once again, notice the ‘nose’, ‘chest’ and ‘abdomen’ and the mental images that arise in response to the thought labels.
Do these images, in any way suggest that ‘breathing’ is happening?
Do these images suggest in any way that ‘movement’ is happening?

No, they don't. That feels a bit trickier in that I'm thinking and imagining them but i can't find movement or breathing in them,

Thank you again. i hope you have a great day,

Love Hannah x x x x

[Nina45]

Hi again Hannah -

Keep "playing" with those exercises. They may change overtime. Certainly, when meditating, just looking at sensation is likely to feel like a much more useful practice than before.

How are things going Hannah? How are the emotions? How is thought? Anything odd or unusual going on?


A big question to consider when "I" is seen as an illusion are other beliefs we hold about "choice" and "responsibility". What happens if the is no one in the driving seat to control, choose or take responsibility? Are they just concepts too?
Is there no choice to make?
Is there no responsibility to take?

Have a look at this:


1. Place both hands on a table in front of you, palms down.
2. When you have done that, rest for a moment and then raise one hand in the air but not the other.

Don't go to thoughts, examine the actual experience. Do this as many times as you like, and each time inquire…

What is it exactly that is choosing which hand to raise?

Can you find a separate individual or anything that is doing the choosing?

What is it that is controlling the hand?

Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?

Can anything be found that makes the hand

How is the decision made?

How are choices made?

Is it possible to "take responsibility"?

What feelings arise in response to these questions?

Lots of Love

Nina
Xxxx

.

[Hannapple]

Dear Nina,

How are things going Hannah? How are the emotions? How is thought? Anything odd or unusual going on?

I'm going to reply in parts. I'm off to a late night cinema tonight... I'm struggling with finding your messages- My notifications aren't coming through anymore (i'll check settings etc in the morning) and when I've looked at different times today, I haven't seen a reply and there is a 0 under notifications but I saw tonight that you did reply at 9ish this morning. I wonder if it's because there are lots of posts between us now? Practical stuff to figure out.

Things are going ok with this and I do feel very guided by you. I am feeling that my time has been very squeezed. It's been a particularly full on couple of weeks with many forms/application/places to be (new job, new school, new course) and time has been short. There is no point in waiting for the 'right time' to do something like this so I'm still very here. It does take time and commitment tho and sometimes it's hard in the day to remember exactly what I'm meant to be looking at/through and it's been the best when my three are in bed.... but that's also the time loads of other stuff needs to happen....

My emotions don't feel particularly different from before starting, my thoughts do feel as though I am able to be less controlled by, they seem to have less strength BUT saying that, I do have a strong story running through my head that I'm struggling to let go of so that's interesting...Something to look at.

In terms of anything odd or unusual, not really. Nothing comes to mind. I fear I may be one walking up to the gate over and over and not quite getting through...I know. Thought.

Much love Hannah x x x

[Nina45]

Hi Hannah -

Sorry about the notifications. There is a problem across the board at the moment.

I will wait for the rest of the reponses to today's questions before replying properly.

Nina
Xxxx

[Hannapple]

Hi Nina,

Thanks for letting me know about the notifications. That helped. I relied on seeing them as they've worked since I began this but now I'm going straight in to the last page of our communication and checking.

What is it exactly that is choosing which hand to raise?

The first time it felt like the right hand 'chose itself' and it felt like that happened because I am right handed so the dominant one just went first. I didn't internally say "go right hand, your turn!" They they started alternating or going in what ever random order 'they' chose.

Can you find a separate individual or anything that is doing the choosing?

No. I can't. I'm doing it over and over and sometimes I move the left, sometimes the right. I'm looking at the hands and their movement seems to be bypassing my 'control centre' - my thoughts/mind/brain and by just looking, I can see them moving without my consciously telling them how to do it.

What is it that is controlling the hand?

I don't know. An instruction has happened. 'I' am responding to the request you sent to do the exercise which means that there is some process. You wrote me the message , I read it and agreed to be instructed and then movement came so 'I' am engaged in the moving hands....

Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?

There is no 'fat controller'. But then I started 'controlling' like a Sergeant Major saying "left hand, right hand, right hand left hand" etc etc and I could tell them what to do. Or it felt like i could.

Can anything be found that makes the hand

I'm not sure if that question wasn't quite finished? Perhaps it's meant to say 'makes the hand move?' The intention i had to engage is surely part of the movement? Without your instruction, the chances are my hands would not be doing what you asked of them so in some way I am mediating the instruction to these hands? I can't find anything in my actual experience that makes the hands move. Movement seems to come from them.

How is the decision made?

I've tried this over and over and at first they just 'did' but then i did more and more and I do seem to be able to make a decision. It may be illusory but My thoughts said 'keep lifting the right hand'. So I did. Over and over. And the thought said, 'keep going' so I did.

How are choices made?

Again, at first I didn't think 'i' was making the choice and then it felt like 'I' could make choices- or my thoughts could. Then i wondered if that was an illusion and my thoughts were happening milliseconds seconds after the raising hands, leading thoughts to think they were deciding.

Is it possible to "take responsibility"?

I'm not sure. i'm thinking of world class athletes whose physical movements are so minute and tuned that there is 'control' there. If not, how do they get to that level?

What feelings arise in response to these questions?

A muddle, a jumble, confusion. At first it felt clear to me that I was watching my hands moving up and down of their own accord. Then I started playing with it and trying to 'make' them do what my thoughts asked so I felt like there WAS a controller, someone at the centre making the decisions/choices/movements. Is that just thought clinging?

I feel like I began that activity open to seeing my hands moving almost of their own free will then my thinking mind tried to understand it and confusion set in.

Ah!

Love Hannah x x x

[Nina45]

Hi Hannah!

I hope the first day of the new job has gone well?

I am feeling that my time has been very squeezed. It's been a particularly full on couple of weeks with many forms/application/places to be (new job, new school, new course) and time has been short. There is no point in waiting for the 'right time' to do something like this so I'm still very here. It does take time and commitment tho and sometimes it's hard in the day to remember exactly what I'm meant to be looking at/through and it's been the best when my three are in bed.... but that's also the time loads of other stuff needs to happen....

It shows great determination that you are here now. It is an indication that this must be the right time.

My emotions don't feel particularly different from before starting, my thoughts do feel as though I am able to be less controlled by, they seem to have less strength BUT saying that, I do have a strong story running through my head that I'm struggling to let go of so that's interesting...Something to look at.

Is the story a about "you"?
How does thought respond to this question?

Now, don't look at thought, look at sensation and ask the question
"is this a story about "you"?

Is the answer that arises different, depending on whether thought or sensation is looked at?

I fear I may be one walking up to the gate over and over and not quite getting through...I know. Thought.

Walking up to the get and not getting through. Is there a barrier there? Is the gate locked? Is this a familiar feeling .... that something is stopping "you" from going where "you" wants to go?
Unfortunately "you" can't cross the gate. "You" has to be left behind.
Why can't "you" go through the gate?

Thanks for trying the hand exercise so thoroughly!

The first time it felt like the right hand 'chose itself' and it felt like that happened because I am right handed so the dominant one just went first. I didn't internally say "go right hand, your turn!" They they started alternating or going in what ever random order 'they' chose.

Great! Hands don't need an "I" in the driving seat to function.

I'm doing it over and over and sometimes I move the left, sometimes the right. I'm looking at the hands and their movement seems to be bypassing my 'control centre' - my thoughts/mind/brain and by just looking, I can see them moving without my consciously telling them how to do it.

Fantastic! No control centre! No little "me" sitting behind the eyes with a steering wheel.

I can't find anything in my actual experience that makes the hands move. Movement seems to come from them.

Marvellous! Hands move on their own. They just do it.

I've tried this over and over and at first they just 'did' but then i did more and more and I do seem to be able to make a decision. It may be illusory but My thoughts said 'keep lifting the right hand'. So I did. Over and over. And the thought said, 'keep going' so I did.

Oh. So hands were managing to just move without a controller.
Then along comes thought and says "ok, I'm in charge now: Left! Right! Left! Right!"
Then "I" shows up and says "Oh ... I can make a decision after all!"
Well that is a relief! Thought says "I" exist and "I" am in control so it must be true!
Thought says "Disregard all other evidence immediately!".

At first I didn't think 'i' was making the choice and then it felt like 'I' could make choices- or my thoughts could. Then i wondered if that was an illusion and my thoughts were happening milliseconds seconds after the raising hands, leading thoughts to think they were deciding.

Ahhhhhhhh.
Ever found yourself eating something without having thought about eating it first?
Ever found yourself in a shop without any thought of needing to go there?
A sort of "automatic" thing happening?
What does thought say when that happens? Does it tell "you" off? Does it get cross with "you"?

I feel like I began that activity open to seeing my hands moving almost of their own free will then my thinking mind tried to understand it and confusion set in.

Ah!

OK! OK!
What is that "Ah!" Hannah?
Stay with it.

Follow this instruction:

Point to yourself with a single finger.

Where is the finger pointing to?

What is under the finger?

Are "you" under the finger?


NOW

Find an image of "you" in thought.

Look closely at the "you" in thought.

Find another image of "you" in thought.

Look closely at that image of "you" too.

It is possible to see the two thought images at the same time? Like two playing cards lying next to each other?

Which playing card is the real "you"? Either of them?

NOW LOOK BACK AT WHAT IS LOOKING.

What is there?


Looking forward to the reply!

Lots of love

Nina
xxxxx