Looking for a guide

[Rudra]

[quote="0kay"Taking direct experience as the truth... Can you give it a try, taking it simple? Tasting this for today, here-now?

So...
It is very intense. It's a bit like becoming aware of a new dimension and in the same time not being fully in the experience. It triggers or it makes me aware of a fear. Also, it's easier when experience is smooth, more demanding when experience is more difficult, because difficulties trigger judgment towards the experience.

I can see that I'm trying to escape the fear and it makes me escape direct experience in thoughts. I can see that escaping from fear is a strong motivation to focus on thoughts instead of direct experience.

At some point vision changes, what I look at seems less tangible, like made of light. The limits of the body are less clear.

There is a belief that I should do something when identification is running or to get away from sticky thoughts
Where it refers to, where it belongs to? Is it stronger than direct experience?[/quote]

This belief is linked to fear I mentioned before. I think there is a belief direct experience should always be enjoyable. If it's not I believe I am doing something wrong (I see how absurd it is but it's still here).

Direct experience is stronger that thoughts. In a sense it seems to stop the automatic thinking process.

[0kay]

It is very intense. It's a bit like becoming aware of a new dimension and in the same time not being fully in the experience. It triggers or it makes me aware of a fear. Also, it's easier when experience is smooth, more demanding when experience is more difficult, because difficulties trigger judgment towards the experience.

Yes, here it was the same during the first weeks. No problem, take a break when needed. Often it needs only half a minute to calm down.

I can see that I'm trying to escape the fear and it makes me escape direct experience in thoughts. I can see that escaping from fear is a strong motivation to focus on thoughts instead of direct experience.

Everything new is exciting. We can have a calm look for concerns and fears when in direct experience: Does the fear protect something, what exactly? Does fear have an owner or is it more like a visitor, come and go? How long is it active after beginning to watch it? What body sensations come with fear and what happens to them when being watched continuously for half a minute?

At some point vision changes, what I look at seems less tangible, like made of light. The limits of the body are less clear.

Great look. Look for this more often, is there really a border/seperation or is it all one?

There is a belief that I should do something when identification is running or to get away from sticky thoughts
Where it refers to, where it belongs to? Is it stronger than direct experience?

This belief is linked to fear I mentioned before. I think there is a belief direct experience should always be enjoyable. If it's not I believe I am doing something wrong (I see how absurd it is but it's still here).

It is OK with me as is. Can you hold something when thoughts and sensations come and go? Is there an i who can hold something?

Direct experience is stronger that thoughts. In a sense it seems to stop the automatic thinking process.[/quote]
Yes, well done!

[Rudra]

Hey 0kay,

I will answer tomorrow :)

Thanks

Rudra

[Rudra]

Good morning

With fear :

It's a fear responding to the sensation of losing control and the sensation of not knowing what will happen next. I would say it protects the body / mind against harm. So when I am identified it seems that I am afraid, but observed in direct experience, it's only a feeling in the body (contraction in the belly and in the throat).

Does fear have an owner or is it more like a visitor, come and go?
Usually fear does not have an owner, it's like a visitor that comes and goes. If I grasp it then it becomes my fear, my experience.

How long is it active after beginning to watch it?What body sensations come with fear and what happens to them when being watched continuously for half a minute?
I would say it lasts a couple of minutes sometimes, changing form and place in the body, but without triggering thoughts to solve it if I observe clearly. As soon as I grasp it it triggers different stories. It comes with contractions in the belly and the throat. In direct observation it comes and goes in different ways and speed, sometimes it disappears.

Great look. Look for this more often, is there really a border/seperation or is it all one?
No separation. It seems that there's only me but not as me the body/mind. Just me everywhere. Also when I drive my car direct experience is easy and I see that nothing is moving, nobody is driving, etc.. The body seems to relax from the tension of being somebody ah ah ah.

Also, today I woke up with strong identification, but I guess that if I can observe that, it means it was not full identification ? Observing is a bit difficult as I can observe strong desire to get distraction from direct experience. A tendency to despise direct experience as "not good enough" runs strongly. Here "I" have a choice : direct experience or the thinking habits.

[0kay]

Fear... I would say it protects the body / mind against harm. So when I am identified it seems that I am afraid, but observed in direct experience, it's only a feeling in the body (contraction in the belly and in the throat).

This is a good found, in direct experience there is just feeling.
There could be more release. Ask this feeling of concern or fear what should be protected.
Is it a space of it´s own? What is it, what does this "to be protected" belong to?


Usually fear does not have an owner, it's like a visitor that comes and goes. If I grasp it then it becomes my fear, my experience.

Good.



No separation. It seems that there's only me but not as me the body/mind. Just me everywhere. Also when I drive my car direct experience is easy and I see that nothing is moving, nobody is driving, etc.. The body seems to relax from the tension of being somebody ah ah ah.


Great.

Also, today I woke up with strong identification, but I guess that if I can observe that, it means it was not full identification ? Observing is a bit difficult as I can observe strong desire to get distraction from direct experience. A tendency to despise direct experience as "not good enough" runs strongly. Here "I" have a choice : direct experience or the thinking habits.

Yes, this was good seen. "i" comes with identifications. Do these identifications come with direct experience, what is, or do they come with thoughts or do they connect to thoughts?

Are these identifications about an i refer to something real living or to thoughts only?

There is a PM for you.

[Rudra]

One thing, sometimes when mind is at rest there is an intense response of the body, like if it was burning inside from a joyful fire. It lasts a few minutes sometimes. I keep in mind not to get attached to the experience.

Ask this feeling of concern or fear what should be protected.Is it a space of it´s own? What is it, what does this "to be protected" belong to?

Hum... it's strange. Fear seems to protect the body-mind but for the fears that are rising now they are linked to ideas / concepts / belief. That "I should do this" or that "I should be like this" or that "I should control what I say or how I behave". So, they protect the idea of me.

I also see that for now when I interact with others it's a bit trickier to keep the recognition of who I am as there is a bit more informations to deal with.

Do these identifications come with direct experience, what is, or do they come with thoughts or do they connect to thoughts? Are these identifications about an i refer to something real living or to thoughts only?

Identification seems to run along with fear. I don't know which one comes first. So it's connected with thoughts I mentioned before : I should do this, etc...

Identification is connected to an "I" that is only a thought then the feeling of fear (or sometimes anger) gives it a sensation of existence. But in direct experience, the I is a thought and the fear just a feeling.

Also, this recognition is coming and passing. Like if it's being forgotten for some minutes or an hour and then it comes back, more or less strongly. When identification is running, it shows aspects of thoughts that are still believed to be true and fears that are still believed to be true too.

[0kay]

One thing, sometimes when mind is at rest there is an intense response of the body, like if it was burning inside from a joyful fire. It lasts a few minutes sometimes. I keep in mind not to get attached to the experience.

Some have the experience of bliss for a while sometimes, this can be connected to the body partially like humming vibrations or mild burning. Is it like this? Or is it more intense, as if there is something what has to go with joyful fire?
(I´ve watched this during my first days after the gate. Watching, let them go, step by step, covered in/with love. You can read "the awakeneds guide through the galaxy" about this, it can ge found via google.)

(Fears) Hum... it's strange. ... they protect the idea of me.

Good, you have seen there is fear connected to an idea of doing something to protect an idea.
Look for this if fear shows up. Look around until there is relief.

when I interact with others it's a bit trickier to keep the recognition of who I am...

Can you go into direct experience for some seconds to be shure, then?

In direct experience, the I is a thought and the fear just a feeling.

Great found. But it looks like the i-thoughts are connected to some ideas about decision, choose, control and responsibility. So let´s have a look at this in direct experience:

Take five lightweight small peaces like paperballs, coins or something.
Throw them up and catch some when falling down.

Did an i decide to do the exercise?
Did an i choose where to do this, when it starts, what hand catches?
Did an i control the strength of the throw, move of the eyes, move of the hand, falling parts?

Some parts are laying on the floor.
Who is responsible for parts on the floor and dirt on the floor here-now?

[Rudra]

Some have the experience of bliss for a while sometimes, this can be connected to the body partially like humming vibrations or mild burning. Is it like this? Or is it more intense, as if there is something what has to go with joyful fire?
(I´ve watched this during my first days after the gate. Watching, let them go, step by step, covered in/with love. You can read "the awakeneds guide through the galaxy" about this, it can ge found via google.)

It is more like a vibration, like a wave in the body, but it stops before being to strong, before taking everything away. Everything being "me". It exactly is as if I would go through the gate for a little time, enjoy the experience, then come back. It has been like that for some time. Some part of me seems reluctant to fully jump from the cliff.

Good, you have seen there is fear connected to an idea of doing something to protect an idea.
Look for this if fear shows up. Look around until there is relief.

The vibration in the body is relief, clearly. But then it's a bit confusing. It's quite, vision is less "real", but I am still here, observation still happens.

Great found. But it looks like the i-thoughts are connected to some ideas about decision, choose, control and responsibility. So let´s have a look at this in direct experience.

I did the 5 coins experience. It reminds me of the observation of walking in vipassana meditation. Sometimes it was seen that there is a mental impulse to walk and then the walking, both without a doer. I know it, it's a nice concept now in my mind, but I kind of avoid looking too much at it, like if I was reluctant to dive in it. I will observe this more today and do the game again.

Can you go into direct experience for some seconds to be shure, then?

Yes, you're right, it's just a story. Going back to direct experience is fully ok with others.

[0kay]

OK, answer to the questions about choosing, decision, control an responsible
after seeing with coin throwing in direct experience.

Sensations change in direct experience.
Who needs being aware, waves, vibrations, full through?

[Rudra]

Did an i decide to do the exercise?
Did an i choose where to do this, when it starts, what hand catches?
Did an i control the strength of the throw, move of the eyes, move of the hand, falling parts?
Some parts are laying on the floor.
Who is responsible for parts on the floor and dirt on the floor here-now?

So, the first movement is to answer with the mind the easy answers (nobody is doing anything).

But, in direct experience, there is the impulse to do the exercise, the idea comes from what has been read then, after the natural impulse, the question "who is doing this arises". When who or why is asked, the only answer is : I don't know. I don't know why here, why now, etc... All happens by itself. I don't know why I think this or that or why I do this or that. I can pretend I know and I can pretend I chose. But reality is, I have no clue. Fear rises from that (I'm writing at the same time I am experiencing). Fear of losing the illusion of control.... what to do.

I guess recognizing this more and more will slowly dissolve the fear as it's really irrelevant ! Recognizing that whatever happens, all there is are feelings, thoughts, the natural impulse and attention naturally going from one to another.

So nobody is responsible for the parts on the floor. It just happened. In fact once I observe them on the floor, they are just on the floor, nothing happened before. Everything is just now and not moving.

[Rudra]

And then I had the question : who is recognizing anything ? that appeared...

Nobody of course

I can see you don't need the internet to send me questions ;)

[0kay]

Great work, looking for things in direct experienc with own question at least.


With 'you' revealed as a thought story, what remains?

What experiences?

What thinks?

What does?

What is aware?

[Rudra]

Before I answer, some more observations.

Direct experience
All is as it is.
Fear or a Me story rises
If fear, it's linked with the idea of Me who has to control or who risk losing control.
If a me story, it covers fear ah ah ah
In direct experience, all of this is fine, as nothing is under control.

It is observed that there is a tendency / habit to build up a new Me story about every experience, a tendency to make it My experience.

Also, "not direct" experience is experience filtered / colored by thoughts or emotions, is it right ? So in a sense it is direct experience of filtered experience. So there is always direct experience of something, it's never lost. It can't be lost.

Yesterday, in my car, driving, everything was just a movie being watched and there's not even a watcher.

Experiences just happen and go
Thoughts just appear and disappear
Doing is just done and gone
Awareness just happens by itself

And the combination of all of this gives the sense of Self, of existence. The sense of existing is just a pile of direct experiences combine together.

So I don't have any answer to the question what is doing or what thinks, etc...

The fear keep rising all the time, but it matters less and less, the it is seen that it's all fine.

[0kay]

I see and i´m happy with you.

Let us do a short looking for some more questions.

Is awareness what you are? Really?

Have you been able to find, a ‘self’ that is the ‘experiencer’?

Or a self that is the doer, or can control what happens?

Or a self that ‘makes’ decisions?

Or a self who ‘does the thinking’?

Is the "body" just another thought label for sensations?

Are the five body senses made to arise or experienced by this ‘self’?

Is there a self ‘in here’ which is separate from the world and others ‘out there’?

Is there doubt or unclarity that in all these cases the ‘self’ is nothing other than a mental fabrication?

Let me know if one or more of these questions needs further looking.


When this is done you may answer the final six questions in the box or leave it untouched for looking here in the thread a bit longer. When they are all answered some other guide will take a look for.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

6) Anything to add?

[Rudra]

Hi 0kay,
I will be gone for work until Tuesday so, I will go through the all thread again and the last post and answer on Tuesday evening.
Take care,