Guide on self-analysis appreciated

[yuksaka]

Question1: Given these observations, does "I" exist in any form other than as a thought?

No it does not exist other than as a thought.

Question2: How does the answer to Question1 change your perspective from when you started this discussion?

Hmm, well the moment I start saying "my perspective ..." that is more imagination...thoughts. The same for "change in my perspective", there can never be a real "change" to something that is imagined...it would be only more imagination about that thing.

[QuantSelfLaFont]

the moment I start saying "my perspective ..." that is more imagination...thoughts. The same for "change in my perspective", there can never be a real "change" to something that is imagined...it would be only more imagination about that thing.

Sure, and don't let the communication convention get us too much into the detail. I'm not trying to trip you up, just take us deeper into the implication of these simple concepts.

Exercise: Recall the perspective you had when this conversation started and contrast it to how you are viewing thoughts, "I" and intention now.

Thanks

[yuksaka]

Sure, and don't let the communication convention get us too much into the detail. I'm not trying to trip you up, just take us deeper into the implication of these simple concepts.

Ok, hehe, sorry, reading a little too much into the question there.

Exercise: Recall the perspective you had when this conversation started and contrast it to how you are viewing thoughts, "I" and intention now.

So, at the start of our discussion, I thought that "I" was more than a thought. I also thought that there is some "I" hiding beneath such things as decision, intention, desire etc. Now, I see "I" as no more than a thought. In direct experience, decision, intention, desire etc. seem to be just body responding to various sensations, but we tend to automatically label them as "I made such and such decision" or "I have this intention" after the fact using thought. This is a tenacious habit and our usual mode of being, engrossed in contents of thoughts rather than direct experience. I also learned that I do not or even cannot stop this mechanism that gives impression that "I" exists. It is the way our human body/mind is wired to make the human experience possible.

Thanks.

[QuantSelfLaFont]

also thought that there is some "I" hiding beneath such things as decision, intention, desire etc. Now, I see "I" as no more than a thought.

Great.

Early on you said coming to this you were hoping to gain "true conviction" that "I" does not exist.

Question: Do you have true conviction, or is such conviction needed any longer?

[yuksaka]

Early on you said coming to this you were hoping to gain "true conviction" that "I" does not exist.

Question: Do you have true conviction, or is such conviction needed any longer?

No conviction is needed any longer. Because "I" is seen to be imaginary. any conviction that "I" could have would also be imaginary. So, the hope for gaining a conviction was also a story that I was carrying around.

[QuantSelfLaFont]

conviction was also a story that I was carrying around.

Good noticing.

Question: How does control work?

[yuksaka]

Question: How does control work?

I think that control works in a similar way as your example of perceiving "an absence of color" when we see white. Our mind is wired to perceive a controlling activity happening when there is a coordinated activity among the various senses.

For example, when I am pushing an object with my hand at a steady speed, there is a kinesthetic sensation inside the arm of the force that is experienced, there is a tactile pressure of object against the hand, there is a visual sense tracking the object, and there is the perception that these various senses are going off in a specific pattern as to appear that a controlling is happening. Perhaps then there is another thought that says "I am pushing this object".

There is no controller in actuality that is experienced here. Only a perception of a controlling happening and a thought that says "I am controlling this".

Thanks.

[QuantSelfLaFont]

Our mind is wired to perceive a controlling activity happening

Good noticing.

There is no controller in actuality that is experienced here

Right.

I am going to ask you four questions to check your perspective:

Question 1: Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there
ever?

Question 2: Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from
your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.


Question3: How does it feel to see this?

Question4: In terms of free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How
does it work? What are you responsible for?

[yuksaka]

Question 1: Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

There is no separate entity at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form. There never was one. It only existed as a content of a thought but not in actuality.

Question 2: Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

As an example, when there is "breathing" happening, there is the direct sensory experience of the breath. Then, there is our mind that automatically perceives a pattern in that direct experience and labels it as "breathing". Then, because of the way our language is structured, that requires a subject that is doing the action, a thought is created that presumes an entity called an "I" that is doing the "breathing" as in "I am breathing".

Because our ability to use our language smoothly and effectively depends on our ability to take the content of a thought as real and at face value, we basically overlook the fact that "I" is an effect of the structure of our perception and our language but not experienced in actuality.

So, direct experience + words that point to the direct experience + our ability to believe in the contents of a thought + structure of our language with subject/object split => illusion of "I" that experiences the experience, is created.

Question3: How does it feel to see this?

On the one hand, I feel clearer about how this "I" illusion works, and lighter because "I" is seen to be nothing but an imaginary entity. On the other hand, there is a feeling of a bit of a loss as to what to do next. Also, there is still the compulsion to think and do the things on the assumption of a separate self. The thoughts that I have been recycling for so long in my life is still going on, although in a lighter way and are seen as mere stories going on when I examine them in light of the new perspective.

Question4: In terms of free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for?

There is no entity that makes these things happen. Will, choice and control may be happening as a part of the mechanism of this body/mind as it interacts with things in the world. However, there is no "I" that wills, chooses or controls that is experienced in reality. What is experienced are series of mental/physical activities and sensations that imply that there is a will, a choice, or a control happening, but there is no "I" to be responsible for them. It is only a thought that says that "I" am responsible for these mental/physical activities and sensations, that sometimes arises along with them.

[QuantSelfLaFont]

Great, I am going to have some other Guides look at our conversation and see if they have questions.

[yuksaka]

Okay, thank you.

[QuantSelfLaFont]

Hi, one of our Guides had the request:

"Describe the experience of seeing through the illusion of self to a friend, who has never heard anything about it."

Thanks

[yuksaka]

"Describe the experience of seeing through the illusion of self to a friend, who has never heard anything about it."

Thanks. I thought to describe this in an imagined dialogue, much like the exercises you gave me. It's a bit long, but here it goes:

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Sit comfortably, and notice your experience that is happening now. Notice that all that are being experienced is either a sensation or a thought. A sensation can be colors and shapes seen by the eyes, a sound heard by the ears, a touch sensed by the body, a smell smelled by the nose, a taste tasted by the tongue, or anything else that are being sensed. A thought can be imagined colors and shapes, an imagined sound, an imagined touch sensation, an imagined smell, an imagined taste, or anything that are being imagined.

Notice that nothing in your experience is other than a sensation or a thought. For example, you may feel some emotion right now...say that you are depressed. Is it not that what are actually experienced are sensations in your body (e.g. tensions in your head, chest and gut) and thoughts (e.g. depressing stories of "you" going in circles)?

Now, feel your hand. What is being experienced? There may be a warmth (sensation), a pressure (sensation), an image of a hand (thought) and an internal voice that says "my hand" (thought), but is there an actual experience of "my hand"? What makes these sensations "yours", other than the mere thought that says "they are mine"?

Now, imagine that you are sitting in a cafe, talking animatedly about some topic that you are passionate about with a friend. What is being experienced? There may be an imagined smell of a coffee (thought), imagined background music (thought), an imagined sight of your friend (thought), and "you" as an imagined person talking with a friend (thought), on top of the sensations that you are feeling in response to the imagination (sensation of heart pumping faster, sensation of warmth in your body etc). But, is there an actual experience of "you" there, apart from these sensations and thoughts?

You might say, '"I" am the one who is imagining these things'. But what is this "I" that is imagining oneself? Is it a sensation or a thought? Can a sensation imagine something? Can a thought imagine something? Isn't it simply that there is a separate thought that says "I am imagining myself talking to a friend in a cafe"?

So, you see, you cannot find this "I" in actual experience. It is only found as a content of a thought and nothing else. The experience of seeing through the illusion of self is simply to see sensations as sensations, thoughts as thoughts, and self as nothing but a content of a thought, e.g. an illusion.

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Thanks.

[yuksaka]

Actually, there is now a bit of uncertainty about some parts of my understanding. I do not have a doubt that self is an illusion but I think my understanding about how experience works may have been a bit too simplistic. When I experience, say, a sensation of my hand, my impression was that there are separate experiences of a touch sensation, an internal image of a hand, and a thought label "my hand". But if I really look, I don't think they are separate experiences at all. There is only one experience....and this one experience at once seems like a "touch", an "image", and a "perception: this is my hand" at the same time. In other words, I do not think there is a clear dividing line between a sensation and a thought labeling it what it is. Or putting it still another way, sensation is already thought-like in the sense that it seems to contain some meaning. In the case above, the meaning that the sensation seemed to contain was that it was the sensation of "my hand".

I think this is basically what you were pointing to with the white looking like an absence of color exercise, althought I did not fully get it at the time. Sensation of "white" already has this thought-like nature containing a meaning that it looks like an absence of color. Looking like an absence of color comes inseparably with the sensation of "white", so I could not do anything to make it not look like an absence of color.

So, I guess the self is also like this. A thought can "seem like" a self. A sensation can "seem like" a self. A feeling can "feel like" a self. Because all experiences has this thought-like aspect (e.g. that it "seems" to contain a meaning), sometimes an experience (whether it be thought, sensation or feeling) can "seem" like a self. We basically make an error when we take this "seeming-ness" part of the experience as real.

In any case, I just wanted to post this, because I was under a strong assumption that there was a clear line between a sensation and a thought, but now I guess I was a bit mistaken. Consequently, I think that what I should say now is: "I"-thought or "I"-sense is real, but the "I" in the "I"-thought or "I"-sense is not.

Thanks.

[QuantSelfLaFont]

I could not do anything to make it not look like an absence of color.

So, I guess the self is also like this.

Right, there is nothing that can change the sense we have of an entity

"I"-thought or "I"-sense is real

Question: What is this I- thought and who is thinking it?

Thanks