Need help seeing through the illusion

[mikeymike]

What brings you to Liberation Unleashed?:
My name is mike, 26 years old. Living in the Netherlands.
When i was 15 due to some events that happened in my life, I got a bit depressed.

I wanted to solve this and become better, and started looking on the internet.
Soon I found out about budhism, meditation, chakras, enlightment, you name it.

I felt my ego was damaged and I could not create a normal teenager self image anymore.
So I saw the spiritual "enlightment" as the goal that would solve all my problems.

Since then I have a deep desire to find that truth.
It was not a constant search but the last few months the desire is burning.
I was searching for more information on the "Who am i" enquiry and I found this site.

What are you looking for? What do you expect from this?:
I hope to finnaly find liberation and the end of the mental suffering that I feel.

What is your background in terms of seeking and inquiry?:
I tried a lot of "methods" affirmations, different meditations, mantras, walking hours and hours, reading from different teachers and more.
The last few months I started with the "who am i" enquiry. Almost daily for hours and hours.
I feel I made some progress with this method.

I discovered this website a few days ago and have been practicing pinpointing the "I".
I also read some stories in gateless gatecrashers.

And I feel that i am starting to see through the illusion and understand it in a logical way.
But then again I feel like so much thought patterns and emotions are attached to the feeling of "I" that it all gets overwhelming sometimes, then I feel caught up again.

How ready are you to question your beliefs about who you are and see the truth no matter what? On a scale from one to ten (ten being most ready). : 10

[QuantSelfLaFont]

Hi mikeymike, I can guide if that is OK with you. I am in the Mountain time zone in the USA (GMT - 7).

[mikeymike]

Hello,

Yes please thats fine with me.

Thank you.

[mikeymike]

Hello,

I feel that I made a lot of progress this week, can somebody guide me to take the last few steps?

Thank you.

[QuantSelfLaFont]

Hi Mikey, sorry the notifications seem to be off so I missed your posts. What progress have you made?

Thanks

[mikeymike]

No problem, I have been reading a lot from the enlightening quote app and finished the gateless gatecrashers book.

I have been walking a lot outside while practicing seeing and watching thoughts and emotions.
When I watch and search for an "I" there is nothing to find.
I see thought patterns coming up with a story about me.
Sometimes I had to laugh when I watch when certain thoughts come up, because they are so ridiculous.

I also practiced watching who is walking/driving and then I also noticed that walking/driving is happening and that there is no identity that controls it.

There are a lot of painful emotions coming up when I practice seeing, and I try to stay with the emotions to see what happens.
There is a lot of conditioning and patterns build up from the past.
Sometimes there is some more clarity afterwards but then I feel getting caught up in a new "positive story".
For example: "you are making progress" "now you can do this and this in the future" "you will become a better man now"

Sometimes I notice the thoughts coming up and I can laugh them away but sometimes I start believing them again.
I feel that I understand it on an intellectual level but then it falls away again after I start seeing.


In the past there always was this striving for progress on the spiritual path/ enlightenment.
I feel that there is a big spiritual "I" conditioned from the past that wants to progress and practice.
It does not make any sense anymore that a bundle of thoughts and emotions "I" can reach a certain state or progress.
It all makes sense that falling away of the "I" is the progress itself.

Its a long message but I hope you can see a bit where I am on the road right now.

Thank you.

[QuantSelfLaFont]

practicing seeing and watching thoughts and emotions.

Great, lets see the progression. Below are example thoughts (T) and direct experience (DE)

T: I am late for my appointment
DE: Clock ticks on wall
T: I am trying to be calmer in situations
DE: Heat arises in my chest, pulse quickens


Exercise: Sit quietly in your favorite place and write out your DE. See if you can keep it only to DE.

[mikeymike]

Sat with this for about 15 minutes before work.
When i started watching, already after 2 minutes i start feeling sadness. Maybe i can describe it as some emptiness or loss of hope.
When i watch in the mirror I look really down.

In the past i tryed to block these feelings with creating more storys for a "better future".
I tryed that so many times and it never worked.

I grew up in a family where showing emotions was seen as sign of weakness, and i learned to repress the emotions as a teen resulting in a lot of anger problems when i was younger.

I dont want to run away anymore for the feelings that are there.

I will sit with this tonight again after work for longer periods and report back to you.

I had this quote from a song from demi lovato on my mind that shows how i feel a bit:
"Skys are crying, i am watching, catching teardrops on my eyes, only silence has it ending, like we never had a chance.

[QuantSelfLaFont]

i start feeling sadness

Direct Experience (DE) or thought (T)?

I grew up in a family where showing emotions was seen as sign of weakness

Direct Experience (DE) or thought (T)?


My DE right now: Air conditioner hiss from vent, light upper left and upper right, computer on lap, fingers tapping.

My T right now: Has my wife has picked our friends up from the airport yet?

Let's focus in on DE.

Thanks

[mikeymike]

i start feeling sadness

Direct Experience (DE) or thought (T)?

A thought about a feeling

I grew up in a family where showing emotions was seen as sign of weakness


Direct Experience (DE) or thought (T)?

Just a thought.

Ok practiced this yesterday evening and this is what I noticed:
There where different sensations in different parts of the body, all not so intense in the beginning.
It felt pleasant just watching feelings coming up in the body and doing nothing else.

Bundles of thoughts coming up, sometimes they where believed sometimes not.
The thoughts that where believed keep coming up and sometimes there was this talking back with thoughts:
"Now you have this thought again" "Just ignore the thought and it will go away".
I understand that we are not able to control the thoughts coming up. But for some reason I still try to control certain thoughts (especially unpleasant one's).

After a while a more intense feeling in the lower part of the stomach, unpleasant feeling.
Tryed to stay with the feeling but got distracted and went for a walk.
Unpleasant thoughts in combination with feelings came up.
I was trying to hard and there where no results this frustrated me, I had feeling of hopelessness.

Going to practice to stay with the direct experience again today.

[QuantSelfLaFont]

Just a thought

Right.

Going to practice to stay with the direct experience again today.

There is no requirement to "stay" with DE, rather it is useful to know what is T and what is DE because we confuse the two. "I" is T, but we take it as a given, an entity that arises in our DE.

Label your sentences with T or DE to show how hard it is to discern at times:

-sensations in different parts of the body
-all not so intense in the beginning
-It felt pleasant just watching feelings coming up
-thoughts coming up
-they were believed sometimes not
-"Now you have this thought again" "Just ignore the thought and it will go away"
-I understand that we are not able to control the thoughts coming up
-intense feeling in the lower part of the stomach
-unpleasant feeling


Thanks

[mikeymike]

Label your sentences with T or DE to show how hard it is to discern at times:

-sensations in different parts of the body DE
-all not so intense in the beginning T
-It felt pleasant just watching feelings coming up T
-thoughts coming up T
-they were believed sometimes not T
-"Now you have this thought again" "Just ignore the thought and it will go away" T
-I understand that we are not able to control the thoughts coming up T
-intense feeling in the lower part of the stomach DE
-unpleasant feeling DE, but not sure, maybe a thought about a feeling?

Practiced this yesterday again and I think I am able to see the difference between them better now.
There where a lot of different sensations in the body, changes in breathing, sometimes tears.
Sometimes I was distracted by thoughts but then I returned to the DE again.

[mikeymike]

While the DE is sometimes unpleasant there are no real problems that need to be solved, life is fine as it is right now, apart from the story's in my head.

All the problems are created by the "I", "My"problems.
The distraction comes when the thought is believed and this causes the suffering.

So just go back to the DE after being distracted by thoughts, thats all there is to it right?

[QuantSelfLaFont]

life is fine as it is right now, apart from the story's in my head.

Good insight

All the problems are created by the "I", "My"problems.

Question: Who, or what i, is creating the "I" problem?

Thanks

[mikeymike]

All the problems are created by the "I", "My"problems.


Question: Who, or what i, is creating the "I" problem?

The thoughts that are believed are creating the problems.
But, if i search for who is believing the thought i find nothing... one thought is believing another thought.
So i think that the conditioned network of thoughts with "I" in it is causing the problems.

What or who is creating the "I" problems?

I dont know, the thoughts are there and experienced as real.
It seems there is nobody creating the problems.. its just there..

But that thoughts are causing problems is also a thought, and since I can not influence thoughts in any way.. there is nothing I can do?

The resistance against the "bad" thoughts causes frustration. Then there is a feeling that the bad thoughts are happening to ME.
And then I want to have control over the thoughts, this obviously never works and then there is frustration again.
Feels like a circle that keeps repeating itself.

But I feel now I see that circle I can watch it more from a distance.

I wanted to ask if its normal to feel like i'm in a rollercoaster of emotions since I started this process?
Sometimes I feel I get it and i'm laughing about it, but then 10 minutes later I could be really sad and down again.
I feel like there is still a big urge and desire to get this finally after searching for years and this desire is standing in the way.