Please nudge me through the gate

[Joyce]

PS Seems so crazy to want to hold on to something that causes so much pain. 'Joyce' and 'her' expectation of a beautiful intimate relationship.

Love to you Linda

[LindaR]

Hi Joyce,
Beautiful looking!

Words are difficult here so will put ‘I’ like this to show ‘I’ get it?

Sure. Language is structured in a way that makes communicating without using ‘I’ ‘me’ ‘Joyce’ a bit of a challenge. Using ‘I’ ‘me’ and maybe ‘a thought claiming ‘Joyce’ would all be fine. And I will still continue to invite you to look over and over again ;-).

Struggle is definitely a thought and when ‘Joyce’ owns that struggle there is an ache in the heart area.

1. Okay, for clarity, can a thought (Joyce) own a ‘struggle’ or anything, for that matter? Or do you mean when the thought of ‘Joyce’ is believed?
2. Can the sensation labeled ‘ache’ be welcomed instead of pushed away? Again, can you welcome it, allowing it to stay as long as it likes? Maybe ask what it has come to show you, like you did earlier?

What is ‘intimate relationship’?

This was a biggie - that's a thought. There was a realisation that there is a whopper story around intimate relationship which has been around forever. It is just a story.

Tearing up over here. Beautifully seen!

Want to say it all seems so obvious until a strong expectation comes up and then huge resistance. Not sure what else to do but to sit with it.

Sure. You have spent xx years forming societal beliefs, assumptions, concepts, theories and expectations. These thought patterns can be tough little critters to ferret out. Seeing through the illusion of a separate self is one of the HUGE beliefs, and other beliefs depend on this illusion to operate properly. So once the illusion of a separate self is seen through, other beliefs will most likely start being recognized, and so exploring continues. For this reason, we have some post-gate groups, where support and further exploration is available. You and I can also continue to explore together at that time, in a different section of the forum, if you prefer a one on one setting.

Now, with that said, perhaps you would consider this scenario:

Imagine a very large, majestic tree with beautiful, vibrant green leaves. Look up in the branches and watch the woodpeckers peck at the wood on the upper tree trunk, leaving small holes in the tree. Notice all the beautiful birds in the branches, some working hard to build a nest, others just perched on a branch, grooming and chirping. Now notice the two squirrels chasing each other up the trunk of the tree as their tiny paws tear at the bark while they play. Then watch as storm clouds approach and a violent storm ensues. The majestic tree sways and bends as the wind blows, turning, stretching, and ripping leaves. Listen as some branches crack, and fall with a thud to the ground, from lightening hits. Then watch the storm pass and the tree become still again.

1. Did the tree choose any of the unfolding activities? Is it even really a separate entity different from the birds, squirrels, weather conditions etc? Is it even the same entity moment by moment, or is it more the product of environmental conditions, like an ever-changing pattern?
2. can you find anywhere where 'I' autonomously intervenes into life, choosing something that is not the product of all the elements, that is not a part of the overall flow of life?
3. Was Life itself damaged or harmed in any way?
4. Did any of that movement show a preference for how Life unfolds? Would it have changed ANYTHING if the tree had a preference for how it unfolded? Would anything have been different?
5. Could it be possible that even “strong expectations” and thought stories about ‘intimate relationships’ is not separate from the single movement of life, but is the movement of Life? Is it possible that ALL experience, no exceptions, IS what life is doing? Can ALL of it be welcomed? What do you say?

Big hug,
Linda

[Joyce]

Hi Linda,

Have written a post. Need to read it through again in the morning before posting.

Thanks for you patience.

Love

Joyce

[Joyce]

Hi Linda,

And I will still continue to invite you to look over and over again ;-).

Thanks I need that!

Okay, for clarity, can a thought (Joyce) own a ‘struggle’ or anything, for that matter? Or do you mean when the thought of ‘Joyce’ is believed?

Yes when the thought of Joyce is believed – a thought cant own anything.

Can the sensation labeled ‘ache’ be welcomed instead of pushed away? Again, can you welcome it, allowing it to stay as long as it likes? Maybe ask what it has come to show you, like you did earlier?

Yes this is what was meant before by ‘sitting with it’. Yes the sensation can be welcomed although there is some resistance. This is the sensation that is constantly there in my torso. It shows ‘me’ that there are thoughts believed in like ‘he doesn’t care about ‘me’’, ‘‘I’ am not worth spending time with’ etc. These thoughts are not loud just constant quiet murmurs and thus have been difficult to see clearly and face. Like the story around intimate relationship. The feeling is one of sadness.

Seeing through the illusion of a separate self is one of the HUGE beliefs, and other beliefs depend on this illusion to operate properly. So once the illusion of a separate self is seen through, other beliefs will most likely start being recognized, and so exploring continues.

This feels like hearing beautiful truth.

Did the tree choose any of the unfolding activities?

No

Is it even really a separate entity different from the birds, squirrels, weather conditions etc?

No

Is it even the same entity moment by moment, or is it more the product of environmental conditions, like an ever-changing pattern?

Yes more like a changing pattern

Can you find anywhere where 'I' autonomously intervenes into life, choosing something that is not the product of all the elements, that is not a part of the overall flow of life?

Yes ‘I’ often tries to do this.

Was Life itself damaged or harmed in any way?

No that would not be possible

Did any of that movement show a preference for how Life unfolds?

Not sure this is understood – how can any of this have a preference?

Would it have changed ANYTHING if the tree had a preference for how it unfolded?

No

Would anything have been different?

No

Could it be possible that even “strong expectations” and thought stories about ‘intimate relationships’ is not separate from the single movement of life, but is the movement of Life?

Again took time and yes it is all the movement of life.

Is it possible that ALL experience, no exceptions, IS what life is doing?

This makes such sense

Can ALL of it be welcomed?

Yes because it just is and no point in resisting it

What do you say?

Yes

Makes such sense when I read it. Its like it is known deep down but not close enough to the surface yet. Wonderful process.

Thank you so much

Love

Joyce

[LindaR]

Hi Joyce,

Yes this is what was meant before by ‘sitting with it’. Yes the sensation can be welcomed although there is some resistance.

Okay. So, whenever you feel resistance, how about doing the exercise on ‘resistance’ that you did on July 3rd? Let me know how it goes.

Can you find anywhere where 'I' autonomously intervenes into life, choosing something that is not the product of all the elements, that is not a part of the overall flow of life?

Yes ‘I’ often tries to do this.

You said earlier that ‘I’ ‘me’ ‘Joyce’ is a thought. Now you say ‘I’ often tries to do this.
So you found ‘Joyce’? Great!

1. Please tell me about her. What does she look like? Where is she located? What color…what size…is ‘Joyce’? What does ‘Joyce’ sound like? Does she have a texture? Volume? Length? Please tell me with which senses prove the existence of ‘Joyce’.
2. Now, please explain the step by step process how ‘I’ tries to do anything? Look at what is ACTUALLY being experienced.

This is the sensation that is constantly there in my torso. It shows ‘me’ that there are thoughts believed in like ‘he doesn’t care about ‘me’’, ‘‘I’ am not worth spending time with’ etc. These thoughts are not loud just constant quiet murmurs and thus have been difficult to see clearly and face. Like the story around intimate relationship. The feeling is one of sadness.

What I would like to have you do, is for the paragraph above, please go through, like you did before, and mark EACH word as either a (T) for thought, or an (E) for what is actually experienced. Please do that now before proceeding.

Once you have that complete, then please consider the following questions:

1. There is a sensation in the torso area, sure. Now, try to re-associate back into that felt sensation and stay with it, being very curious about it. Don’t label the sensation…just notice the felt raw experience. Without using mental assumptions, beliefs, theories, concepts, and memory, is there ANYTHING about the sensation that makes a claim to ‘sadness’?

2. Can you find anyone, or anything, that actually ‘believes’? Or is it really just another thought claiming to believe another thought?

Its like it is known deep down but not close enough to the surface yet.

This is not something that is deep down. It is not something that is, is not, or can be “close enough to the surface yet”. It is right HERE, NOW, THIS. It has never not been HERE. It is not mysterious, it is not spiritual, it does not need to be believed, it cannot be understood, and it does not need to be found. THIS simply needs to be SEEN.

Look around. Take in all the sights, sounds, smells, textures happening right HERE. Notice thoughts that arise. Which one of the two feels alive, sensations or thought content?
Sensations can be verified to be happening, thoughts can be verified to be happening, in that they come and go, but can the CONTENT of thoughts be verified to be happening? LOOK and tell me what you see (NOT what you THINK!).

Which ‘focus point’ is preferred; experience (THIS, HERE)? Or thought content? Or both? Or?
There is no wrong answer to this question, Joyce. It just requires an honest answer.

Love & warmth,
Linda

[Joyce]

Hi Linda,

Thanks so much for this. Couple of very busy days at work so may be a couple of days before a reply comes as much in here.

Love and thanks

Joyce

[LindaR]

Sure, Joyce. I will be out of town Thursday and Friday with limited internet connection, so probably won't be able to respond until Saturday on this end, so no rush. Much love. xx

[Joyce]

Hi Linda,

Okay. So, whenever you feel resistance, how about doing the exercise on ‘resistance’ that you did on July 3rd? Let me know how it goes.

Much, much time spent being with sadness and yearning over the past few days when travelling and although there is a physical sensation it is thoughts that comment that the feelings are sadness and yearning. Sadness and yearning are not real in actual experience except through thoughts believed in. Thoughts believed in is becoming increasingly apparent as the notion of sadness or yearning arises and presence allows this to be seen more quickly and the sensation dissipates.

You said earlier that ‘I’ ‘me’ ‘Joyce’ is a thought. Now you say ‘I’ often tries to do this.
So you found ‘Joyce’? Great!

‘Joyce’ not really found just comes up as a thought believed in, is seen and then moves on. Hence 'Joyce' written. No senses can prove the existence of ‘Joyce’.

Now, please explain the step by step process how ‘I’ tries to do anything? Look at what is ACTUALLY being experienced.

‘I’ doesn’t do anything - rather there are thoughts of ‘I’ and then other thoughts which comment on what is being done or felt from ‘I’. Clearly see how thoughts comment on thoughts comment on thoughts……………………………………………….

What I would like to have you do, is for the paragraph above, please go through, like you did before, and mark EACH word as either a (T) for thought, or an (E) for what is actually experienced. Please do that now before proceeding.

This was a difficult exercise and have included thoughts and story as experience as they do come into direct experience. Also seeing in this context was tricky but is relating to direct experience.

This (T) is (T) the (T) sensation (E) that (T) is (T) constantly (T) there (T) in (T) my (T) torso (T). It (T) shows (T) ‘me’ (T) that (T) there (T) are (T) thoughts (E) believed (T) in (T) like (T) ‘he (T) doesn’t (T) care (T) about (T) ‘me’’ (T), ‘‘I’ (T) am (T) not (T) worth (T) spending (T) time (T) with’ (T) etc (T). These (T) thoughts (E) are (T) not (T) loud (T) just (T) constant (T) quiet (T) murmurs (T) and (T) thus (T) have (T) been (T) difficult (T) to (T) see (E) clearly (T) and (T) face (T). Like (T) the (T) story (E) around (T) intimate (T) relationship (T). The (T) feeling (E) is (T) one (T) of (T) sadness (T).

There is a sensation in the torso area, sure. Now, try to re-associate back into that felt sensation and stay with it, being very curious about it. Don’t label the sensation…just notice the felt raw experience. Without using mental assumptions, beliefs, theories, concepts, and memory, is there ANYTHING about the sensation that makes a claim to ‘sadness’?

No absolutely not.

Can you find anyone, or anything, that actually ‘believes’?

No

Or is it really just another thought claiming to believe another thought?

Yes of course.

Look around. Take in all the sights, sounds, smells, textures happening right HERE. Notice thoughts that arise. Which one of the two feels alive, sensations or thought content?

Sensations of course.

Sensations can be verified to be happening, thoughts can be verified to be happening, in that they come and go, but can the CONTENT of thoughts be verified to be happening? LOOK and tell me what you see (NOT what you THINK!).

Content of thoughts cannot be verified to be happening. This is the experience.

Which ‘focus point’ is preferred; experience (THIS, HERE)? Or thought content? Or both? Or?
There is no wrong answer to this question, Joyce. It just requires an honest answer.

Experience is preferred of course as there is no suffering here. Thought is seen and increasingly easier to see and let go of as not verifiable. Thought is absolutely not preferred but the pull is very strong at times and then thoughts pile on top of thoughts. Then the suffering starts and this is welcomed and seen and it lessens. The sooner it is seen the quicker the dissipation. This is an honest answer.

The feeling of going round in circles is not there anymore. Strong thought of yearning experienced tonight – just seemed to appear from nowhere. Time taken to sit with it and welcome it as a thought and all that it is saying which of course cannot be verified and is a story. Only 'Joyce' yearns.

Love and so much gratitude

Joyce x

[LindaR]

Hi Joyce,
Really great looking! Just wonderful.

Thought is seen and increasingly easier to see and let go of as not verifiable. Thought is absolutely not preferred but the pull is very strong at times and then thoughts pile on top of thoughts. Then the suffering starts and this is welcomed and seen and it lessens.

Sure. Again, it is normal that it can feel like a strong pull at times to get involved with thoughts. We have lived many years believing the content of thoughts, haven't we? So it can take some time changing the focus from thought content to actual experience. Exploring doesn't stop once the illusion of a separate self is seen through. It some ways, it just begins ;-).

What I would like to propose is that anytime ‘sadness’ or ‘yearning’ comes up, grab a notebook and write out what is happening. Include the sensations and what thoughts are claiming about the sensations. Then go back and (T) and (E) each word like you did above. Then notice how the (E)s are all that is actually happening. Sure, thoughts come up commenting on the sensations, but notice how the content of the thoughts are never actually happening. This tends to be a very effective way to sort out actual experience from thought content. And again, actual experience is always verifiable through the senses hearing, seeing, tasting, touching and smelling.

Okay, let’s do a check. Please answer the following questions from how it is currently seen at this point.

Is there a self that is an ‘experiencer’, ‘doer’ or ‘controller’?
Is there a self that ‘makes’ decisions, a self that thinks?
Is the "body" doing the actual experiencing, or is it experienced?
Is there doubt or lack of clarity that in all these cases the ‘self’ is nothing other than a mental fabrication?
Has there ever been a ‘Joyce/Ruth’ doing or choosing anything?

Also, when you came to the forum you said:

I would simply like to go through the gate. Sometimes my experience is so full that I feel I have and then I am not sure again. The major 'thing' that gets in the way is my yearning for a close and connected relationship with a man and I am still a little confused around this although much less so. Would be fabulous to be clear in my experience around this.

How does it feel when you read this statement now? Has there been any shifts in perspective?

Much love,
Linda

[Joyce]

Hi Linda,

Just requesting a bit of time to be with this.

Thanks and love

Joyce

[LindaR]

Sure, Joyce. Take whatever time is needed. xx

[Joyce]

Hi Linda,

Exploring doesn't stop once the illusion of a separate self is seen through. It some ways, it just begins ;-).

This is seen clearly.

Then notice how the (E)s are all that is actually happening. Sure, thoughts come up commenting on the sensations, but notice how the content of the thoughts are never actually happening. This tends to be a very effective way to sort out actual experience from thought content. And again, actual experience is always verifiable through the senses hearing, seeing, tasting, touching and smelling.

Wonderful when the Es and Ts are seen. So grateful for this gift.

Is there a self that is an ‘experiencer’, ‘doer’ or ‘controller’?

No

Is there a self that ‘makes’ decisions, a self that thinks?

No

Is the "body" doing the actual experiencing, or is it experienced?

It is just experienced.

Is there doubt or lack of clarity that in all these cases the ‘self’ is nothing other than a mental fabrication?

No

Has there ever been a ‘Joyce/Ruth’ doing or choosing anything?

No

I would simply like to go through the gate. Sometimes my experience is so full that I feel I have and then I am not sure again. The major 'thing' that gets in the way is my yearning for a close and connected relationship with a man and I am still a little confused around this although much less so. Would be fabulous to be clear in my experience around this.

How does it feel when you read this statement now? Has there been any shifts in perspective?

Yearning and the story around a connected relationship is seen for a series of thoughts believing thoughts. Very clear about this although the pull is very much still there at times and this has been felt strongly in the body in the last 24 hours because of renewed contact with someone. There is now a way of being with this which does not lead to the intense suffering as before as thoughts are seen. More practice needed as you suggest. So yes lots of shifts in perspective.

The simple thing is seeing clearly the difference between direct experience and thoughts upon thoughts and welcoming the feelings and thoughts and not pushing them away. That all of this is not generated by a separate self. Thought of not feeling sure of being able to stay in this place arises and some fear that you will not always be there (another thought). All seen.

Thanks so much

Love

Joyce xx

[LindaR]

Hi Joyce,
Thank you for those responses.

Very clear about this although the pull is very much still there at times and this has been felt strongly in the body in the last 24 hours because of renewed contact with someone.

This is completely understandable, Joyce. The body is used to responding to these types of experiences in a certain manner, sort of like a neuronal pattern. When this experience comes up, it is an invitation to take another look at what is actually happening. With continued looking, it may be noticed how little ‘mental suffering’ is generated from these experiences.

The simple thing is seeing clearly the difference between direct experience and thoughts upon thoughts and welcoming the feelings and thoughts and not pushing them away. That all of this is not generated by a separate self.

Beautiful.

Thought of not feeling sure of being able to stay in this place arises and some fear that you will not always be there (another thought). All seen.

Great that this is all seen. Just a couple questions to be sure ;-)
1.Are you ever NOT in direct experience? Is there past and future? Is there anything but THIS?
2. Is it anything other than a thought that would prefer life to be different?

Much love,
Linda

[Joyce]

Hi Linda,

The body is used to responding to these types of experiences in a certain manner, sort of like a neuronal pattern. When this experience comes up, it is an invitation to take another look at what is actually happening. With continued looking, it may be noticed how little ‘mental suffering’ is generated from these experiences.

There is certainly less mental suffering than before. This is because thoughts are seen as just thoughts and not real and so thoughts do not pile on thoughts as the first thought is not believed. That is the experience.

Are you ever NOT in direct experience?

When in deep sleep or anaesthetised the senses are not active so no direct experience. Is death the same? Is there really no experience? Not sure about this.

Is there past and future?

Only as thought forms.

Is there anything but THIS?

No

Is it anything other than a thought that would prefer life to be different?

Only thoughts would prefer life to be different.

Thanks to you Linda

Love

Joyce xx

[LindaR]

Hi Joyce,

There is certainly less mental suffering than before. This is because thoughts are seen as just thoughts and not real and so thoughts do not pile on thoughts as the first thought is not believed. That is the experience.

Beautiful.

When in deep sleep or anaesthetised the senses are not active so no direct experience.

How is this known? What evidence do you have that sensations are dependent on a body? This is one of the items we can explore a bit, if you like, in another section of the forum once we are finished here.

And it appears that you are ready for our summary questions :-).

Please feel free to take whatever time is needed to respond to the questions below. Be sure to answer honestly, from how it is actually, presently experienced.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail, as best you can, in your own words, even if fumblingly, what the illusion of separate self is, how it starts and works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Do you decide, intend, choose, control events in Life? Do you make anything happen? Please try to describe the process as best you can, even if gropingly. Don't forget to give some practical examples from your everyday experience (even if there is no real 'you'!) What are you responsible for? (Don't forget to answer this last element).

6) Anything you would like to add?

Looking forward to reading your responses when you are ready.

Love & Warmth,
Linda