Please nudge me through the gate

[Joyce]

Hi Linda,

This is not a way to escape your daily life.
This is not about gaining something extra, becoming something special.
This is not about cultivating an altered state of consciousness.
This isn’t a trick of the mind, or twisting the mind into believing certain thoughts.
This is not about gaining a particular bit of knowledge.
This is not about having a certain thought or sequence of thoughts.
This is not a belief, religion, or a philosophy, it not magical or mystical.
This is not going to lead you to eternal peace and happiness, it is not about happiness.
This is not about freedom from emotions and intense feelings.
This is not about getting rid of self, ego, I.
This is not a solution to problems in relationships.
This is not about stopping thoughts, changing thoughts, getting rid of thoughts.
This is not a way to make the story of you disappear.
This is not about convincing you of anything.
This is not something that will lead to accumulation of money or things.
This is not a self improvement program.

All of the above easy to see and no bodily sensation involved.

This is not about becoming a holy, good, moral or better person.

There is some feeling that the absolute knowing that Joyce does not exist and never did will bring benefit in the outer world – no idea how that might manifest. Some movement in my gut. Like a quiet lurch.

This is not a way to get free of depression or other diseases.

Experience is that awake people are not depressed – nothing to be depressed? No bodily sensation.

With much love

Joyce

[LindaR]

Hi Joyce,

Experience is that awake people are not depressed – nothing to be depressed? No bodily sensation.

This is not about gaining better states or being more spiritual. All we are doing here is looking into what has is, and has always ever been the case. That’s it.

Joyce when she is rebuilt through thought believed in.

How can something that never existed be "rebuilt"? Or does it sound more true to say that thoughts about ‘Joyce’ simply arise? Look and see what is actually happening.

Not sure about how feelings come about still? I felt they came after thought but now it seems that thought commentates so not sure of origin?

Okay, great. Let’s take another look here then.
It is important that you actually do these exercises. Don’t think through them. Thoughts will never see this. The belief in a separate self is a thought, so it is not possible to see this using thinking. It must be SEEN.

Grab a pen and paper. Now draw any picture you would like. It can be of a house, trees, the sun & sky, a stick person. Anything will work. Watch very closely and explain how the drawing happened.
Did a thought direct each stroke of the pencil? Or?

Now, go grab a small snack from the kitchen and watch how it all unfolds.
Notice the snack that was selected.

Did a thought arise first making a choice on which snack to select? Or did the snack just sort of happen and then a thought claimed responsibility for the action?

With love,
Linda

[Joyce]

Hi Linda,

Need more time please. Just want to say that there is something good going on - want to say that there is a feeling of warmth much of the time.

Thanks again for everything.

With love

Joyce

[Joyce]

Hi Linda,

How can something that never existed be "rebuilt"? Or does it sound more true to say that thoughts about ‘Joyce’ simply arise? Look and see what is actually happening.

Yes the thoughts do just arise. The experience that thoughts just arise and are not generated by ‘Joyce’ is starting to really be seen. The 'rebuilding' happens when the thoughts are deemed to be generated by Joyce.

Did a thought direct each stroke of the pencil? Or?

No absolutely thoughts did not direct the pen – the stick man just appeared.

Did a thought arise first making a choice on which snack to select? Or did the snack just sort of happen and then a thought claimed responsibility for the action?

After reading the exercise the thought came that a piece of toast would be lovely. That’s what was made and eaten and yes it did just happen and there was not even a thought claiming responsibility.

Still pondering about feelings and noticing how they come about. Feels like they are connected to thoughts in some way sometimes. Other times they seem just to arise spontaneously like thoughts. Linked to a comment you made about through doing what we are doing here it is possible feelings could become more acute.

Love and gratitude

Joyce

[LindaR]

Hi Joyce,
Thanks for the responses on the exercises.

Still pondering about feelings and noticing how they come about. Feels like they are connected to thoughts in some way sometimes. Other times they seem just to arise spontaneously like thoughts.

When you say “feelings” what exactly are you referring to? Give me an example or two, please.

Love,
Linda

[Joyce]

Hi Linda,

When you say “feelings” what exactly are you referring to? Give me an example or two, please.

This question around feelings took me back to the following dialogue we had some time ago.

I said:

The question that came up outside of the exercises was ‘this feeling I have in my gut much of the time – is that direct experience? Surely it must be?’

You replied:

Sure. For our purposes that is considered a ‘feeling’ which is in the ‘touch’ category.

One example of feeling is the constant sensation on my gut which I have as mentioned above. This has been labelled by various thoughts in the past as sadness, heaviness............ much less likely to do this now and see it just is.

The kind of feeling I am struggling to experience more clearly is when something happens like a piece of music that evokes a thought. The feeling comes after this is my experience. So if the music elicits a memory and a thought that is difficult what follows is a feeling of pain in the heart area. With your help I see this and just let the feeling be rather than labelling through yet another thought that this is sadness because of what happened. The thought does seem to elicit the feeling as it comes second as I experience it.

Interestingly not listening to, reading or watching spiritual teachings is no longer perceived as difficult and focusing on experience is beautiful and there is a feeling of more peace, more space.

Thanks to you Linda

Love

Ruth

[LindaR]

Hi Joyce,

The kind of feeling I am struggling to experience more clearly is when something happens like a piece of music that evokes a thought. The feeling comes after this is my experience...The thought does seem to elicit the feeling as it comes second as I experience it.

So what you are saying is that there is a sensation of sound, then thoughts commenting on the sensation of hearing, then a sensation in the heart region, then thoughts commenting on the heart region sensations, etc.?
How does any of this get translated into thoughts eliciting sensations? Show me the link between the two. Looking at what is actually experienced, can any link be proven to exist outside of a thought claiming a link?

Let’s explore another area. How about giving this exercise a try?

Go outside in nature somewhere. Listen to all the sounds. Maybe some birds, crickets, a plane, voices in the distance, whatever sounds are there, just take a minute to listen.

1. In actual experience can you locate ‘Joyce’ ‘I’ who is hearing the sounds? Or is there just hearing?
2. Can you locate a dividing line between the hearing and the awareness of hearing? If so, tell me where the line in located, and what sensation verifies the dividing line.
3. Are the sounds ‘out there’ and the hearing of them ‘here’? Or is it a single happening?

When you have done that, do the same exercise with the other sensations: smelling, tasting, touching, seeing. Report back what discoveries are made.

And now tell me: Can you find 'Joyce' 'I' 'me' who is having experiences? Or is there only experiencing?

With love,
Linda

[Joyce]

Hi Linda,

So what you are saying is that there is a sensation of sound, then thoughts commenting on the sensation of hearing, then a sensation in the heart region, then thoughts commenting on the heart region sensations, etc.?
How does any of this get translated into thoughts eliciting sensations? Show me the link between the two. Looking at what is actually experienced, can any link be proven to exist outside of a thought claiming a link?

This is the most amazing experience being here with you. So obvious when you describe – just missed a whole part of experience as in the sensation of sound and then thoughts commenting and on it goes! Of course there is no direct link between thoughts and sensations.

In actual experience can you locate ‘Joyce’ ‘I’ who is hearing the sounds? Or is there just hearing?

Just hearing and seeing and smelling and tasting and touching – beautiful.

Can you locate a dividing line between the hearing and the awareness of hearing? If so, tell me where the line in located, and what sensation verifies the dividing line.

Of course not – again so obvious now - and the same for seeing, tasting, touching and smelling.

Are the sounds ‘out there’ and the hearing of them ‘here’? Or is it a single happening?

It’s a single happening as is touching, tasting, smelling and seeing.

Can you find 'Joyce' 'I' 'me' who is having experiences? Or is there only experiencing?

There really is only experiencing – wonderful.

Now another question (thought I guess) – when a thought just appears with nothing obvious like a smell for the commenting to latch onto – it just is - yes – it just appears and if it is just noticed and not commented on it moves on – yes?

I love this and send much love to you.

Joyce

[LindaR]

Hi Joyce,
Big smile over here. Nice looking!

There really is only experiencing – wonderful.

Beautiful!

Now another question (thought I guess) – when a thought just appears with nothing obvious like a smell for the commenting to latch onto – it just is - yes – it just appears and if it is just noticed and not commented on it moves on – yes?

How about taking a look and tell me what you discover?

Now, let explore a bit more, if you are up for it. I would like to invite you to do the following exercise and answer the questions below.

With eyes closed, sitting still, notice the other sensations: hearing, smelling, tasting, touching. With only the input from those four senses, and without relying on thoughts or mental images:

1: Can it be known how tall the body is?
2. Does the body have weight or volume?
3. Is there a boundary between the body and the clothing?
4. Is there a boundary between the body and the chair?
5. In actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?
6. Is there an inside or outside?
7. What is the body in the direct experience?

Looking forward to hearing what discoveries are made.

Much love,
Linda

[Joyce]

Hi Linda,

Have been to a family wedding today. Will be with you tomorrow.

Love

Joyce

[LindaR]

Thanks for letting me know. Take whatever time is needed. xx

[Joyce]

Hi Linda,

Now another question (thought I guess) – when a thought just appears with nothing obvious like a smell for the commenting to latch onto – it just is - yes – it just appears and if it is just noticed and not commented on it moves on – yes?

How about taking a look and tell me what you discover?

We experience thoughts arising in direct experience also. But instead of accepting the contents of thoughts as factual, we will investigate, and perhaps discover that the content of thoughts can never be true.

Above is your recent post in response to my question together with something you said to me some time ago now. Thoughts arising spontaneously in direct experience was startling as was the idea that the content of thoughts can never be true.
I truly experience that experience happens and then thoughts start commenting and that thoughts can just sometimes arise and more thoughts start commenting on these thoughts if they are not seen and let go. The concept of Joyce is still there – if she were not then all thoughts would be noticed equally and none held onto.

It is those thoughts that just appear in direct experience that seem to be the originator of the most suffering as there is a struggle to let them go. These tend to be connected with intimate relationship. All else seems to be let go quickly but this thought lives in me constantly in relation to one person – it’s nothing to do with the person per se as the person has changed over the years but the feeling has been constant although much less intense these days. The only explanation is that the concept of Joyce is still there believing them even though I experience that there is only experience. The thought that comes up is ‘I so want to be free of this’.

So to the exercise:

Can it be known how tall the body is?
Does the body have weight or volume?

No to both of these.

Is there a boundary between the body and the clothing?
Is there a boundary between the body and the chair?

Not a boundary - the experience of touching where the clothing and the body meet and the body and the chair meet.

In actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?
Is there an inside or outside?
What is the body in the direct experience?

These were all similar in that there is an energetic sensation of the body – not really any of the senses although closest to touch. I feel this very strongly and have done for many years now.

Love and gratitude to you Linda.

Joyce

[Joyce]

Hi,

Pressed the button before one last change - there is an expression of I and only experience - this cannot be as there is only one. There is a feeling of knowing this and not living it.

So grateful you are there.

Joyce x

[LindaR]

Hi Joyce,
Nice looking concerning the body. Let’s look at one item that came up.

These were all similar in that there is an energetic sensation of the body – not really any of the senses although closest to touch. I feel this very strongly and have done for many years now.

Okay, so there is a sort of ‘energetic’ sensation, or aliveness. Close your eyes and zero in on this energy/aliveness sensation.

1.Does the sensation actually verify, or even make claim to a body? Or is ‘body’ really just a label for a collection of sensations? Take a look and let me know what you find.
2.Does this energetic/aliveness sensation require a separate entity ‘Joyce’? Is it a special, separate ‘me’ that has felt this for many years? Or is it possible that this ‘aliveness/energy/experiencing’ (pick whichever label you prefer…it doesn’t matter) is ALL that can be found to exist?
3.Do you FEEL ‘energetic sensations of the body’ very strongly? Or do you THINK ‘energetic sensations of the body’ very strongly? Again, I am looking for answers from actual experience, not from thoughts (i.e., memories, theories, concepts, beliefs and assumptions).
4.Are ALL currently held beliefs open for examination? Can ALL beliefs be let go, if they do not stand up under examination? No matter the perceived costs?

I truly experience that experience happens and then thoughts start commenting and that thoughts can just sometimes arise and more thoughts start commenting on these thoughts if they are not seen and let go.
Great. And what is this ‘I’ that “truly experiences that experience happens”?

Is there an experiencer that is experiencing? Or is it just experiencing? Look again at what is actually experienced.

The concept of Joyce is still there – if she were not then all thoughts would be noticed equally and none held onto.

1. Where did this belief/expectation come from? Did you get it from a teacher? Book? Video? Can this belief be let go also?
2. What is the problem with the concept (thought) of Joyce still coming up?
3. If it is seen that ‘Joyce/Ruth’ ‘I’ ‘me’ is a thought, what difference does it make if it still comes up (and it will!) …what does it matter if ANY thought comes up, regardless of the content?
4. Does a thought making claim to a ‘me’, actually point to a real ‘me’? What about sensations, do they point to a ‘me’? Do thoughts+sensations=’me’?
5. Do thoughts and sensations require the existence of a separate entity?

It is those thoughts that just appear in direct experience that seem to be the originator of the most suffering as there is a struggle to let them go.

1. Can a thought generate suffering? Or does it sound more true to say that believing the CONTENT of thought can SEEM to produce suffering? And what is it that makes claim to ‘suffering’?
2. What is it that wants to let thoughts go?
3.How is ‘a struggle’ actually experienced? What sensations verify ‘a struggle’. Or is ‘struggle’ simply a thought?

These tend to be connected with intimate relationship.

Again, leaving all thoughts aside (i.e., theories, concepts, assumptions, beliefs, memories) and answering from actual experience only:

1. What is ‘intimate relationship’?
2. Can you find a connection between thoughts and 'intimate relationships'? Or are these simply thoughts that comment on other thoughts, and a story ABOUT 'intimate relationship' is believed?

Lots to look into here, Joyce. Please be sure to answer all the questions and include sensations that come up as you read, and look into the questions above. Take whatever time you need.

With love
Linda

[Joyce]

Hi Linda,

Okay, so there is a sort of ‘energetic’ sensation, or aliveness. Close your eyes and zero in on this energy/aliveness sensation.

This felt easy to do.

Does the sensation actually verify, or even make claim to a body? Or is ‘body’ really just a label for a collection of sensations? Take a look and let me know what you find.

Yes absolutely – it is just felt as an intense aliveness.

Does this energetic/aliveness sensation require a separate entity ‘Joyce’? Is it a special, separate ‘me’ that has felt this for many years? Or is it possible that this ‘aliveness/energy/experiencing’ (pick whichever label you prefer…it doesn’t matter) is ALL that can be found to exist?

Yes again it is all that exists and - doesn't require 'Joyce'.

Do you FEEL ‘energetic sensations of the body’ very strongly? Or do you THINK ‘energetic sensations of the body’ very strongly? Again, I am looking for answers from actual experience, not from thoughts (i.e., memories, theories, concepts, beliefs and assumptions).

Yes feel, feel – no thought

Are ALL currently held beliefs open for examination? Can ALL beliefs be let go, if they do not stand up under examination? No matter the perceived costs?

Yes that is what ‘I’ am here for – there is nothing more important.

Is there an experiencer that is experiencing? Or is it just experiencing? Look again at what is actually experienced.

There really is just experiencing. Words are difficult here so will put ‘I’ like this to show ‘I’ get it?

The concept of Joyce is still there – if she were not then all thoughts would be noticed equally and none held onto.

Where did this belief/expectation come from? Did you get it from a teacher? Book? Video? Can this belief be let go also?

This was tougher and really helpful. Got this from misunderstanding a great number of teachings, videos etc is the thought that came. Yes it can be let go of.

What is the problem with the concept (thought) of Joyce still coming up?

None as long as 'she' is seen as a thought – took a while!

If it is seen that ‘Joyce/Ruth’ ‘I’ ‘me’ is a thought, what difference does it make if it still comes up (and it will!) …what does it matter if ANY thought comes up, regardless of the content?

It really doesn’t – again took a while regarding ‘Joyce’.

Does a thought making claim to a ‘me’, actually point to a real ‘me’? What about sensations, do they point to a ‘me’? Do thoughts+sensations=’me’?

No and no and no. Recognising thoughts of how could 'you' be so daft and some general aching in the body associated with this. There was no feelings associated with the easier exercises at the beginning.

Do thoughts and sensations require the existence of a separate entity?

No

It is those thoughts that just appear in direct experience that seem to be the originator of the most suffering as there is a struggle to let them go.

Can a thought generate suffering? Or does it sound more true to say that believing the CONTENT of thought can SEEM to produce suffering? And what is it that makes claim to ‘suffering’?

Yes it does sound true to say that believing the content of a thought can seem to produce suffering when ‘Joyce’ makes claim to that content.

What is it that wants to let thoughts go?

Nothing its just a thought of 'Joyce'

How is ‘a struggle’ actually experienced? What sensations verify ‘a struggle’. Or is ‘struggle’ simply a thought?

Struggle is definitely a thought and when ‘Joyce’ owns that struggle there is an ache in the heart area.

What is ‘intimate relationship’?

This was a biggie - that's a thought. There was a realisation that there is a whopper story around intimate relationship which has been around forever. It is just a story.

Can you find a connection between thoughts and 'intimate relationships'? Or are these simply thoughts that comment on other thoughts, and a story ABOUT 'intimate relationship' is believed?

Yes there are thoughts upon thoughts upon thoughts……………………………….
Some fear came up as this was examined closely as ‘Joyce’ has defined herself around this story and how to get there and the prospect of letting it go was scary - no wondrous place to aim for. Intense ache in my whole torso and a feeling of a lump in my throat area. Have been sitting with this all day and trying to treat it as a long lost friend as you suggested before. Still doing that. Your words about expectations getting in the way keep popping up as a thought. Feel tearful but can’t cry. Feels like a block and resistance and the one we have been circling around since the beginning. Another thought!

Gratitude for helping 'me' see a bit more. Want to say it all seems so obvious until a strong expectation comes up and then huge resistance. Not sure what else to do but to sit with it.

Much love

Joyce