Birdman

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vinceschubert
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Re: Birdman

Postby vinceschubert » Sat May 28, 2016 2:32 pm

That sounds interesting - please more about " We actually worshiped the mind."
i was referring to the importance given to education. Even over experience. Perhaps it's a class thing ? (just entertaining thought stuff )
Now you're using the concept "awareness"
No. i was using it in the mundane way. meaning the happening of noticing without judgement. Perhaps saying that 'noticing illuminates' might have been better ?
But also frustrating that there's nothing that can be done.
Ah, this is shining a light on the compulsive nature of the chapter on responsibility. Have a look at what is written (in your story of Self) on 'responsibility'.
Is it the same principle when examining an abstract or more complicated object?
You could try it out. See what happens.
Does the "material world" at all exist other than by experiencing from "inside"?
The answer to that one hasn't emerged from the great mystery for vince yet.
When you do this, do you find anything more than beliefs ?
Well, no...
So if there is only beliefs, then it becomes a simple matter of recognising the useful ones, and allowing all other thoughts to waft through into the great mystery.
Experience here, tells me that the useful ones call out to me. eezy peezy.
No, as I experience it, it's all very primitive, conditioning for millennia. It happens. Whether athletic, performing on any other physical or mental challenging task. It is not "put" at all, it is happening and it should, to enhance the odds for a possibly good outcome of the task - "hunt". I'm not talking out of control hysteria or anxiety fear but a sharpening of senses, a readiness in the body. If you're seasoned and used to it, there is control.
i DO know what you are saying, and accept that this is my story, but that sounds like mythology to me.
Certainly, it is true from a cultural perspective, and consequently is the way the protagonist experiences it. ..but there are alternative ways to experience it. Let's see if you still describe it in this way in a year from now.


love

vince
liberation starts with recognising some illusions

http://www.1ness.info

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Re: Birdman

Postby Birdman » Sat May 28, 2016 8:43 pm

Dear Vince!
Birdman wrote:
That sounds interesting - please more about " We actually worshiped the mind."
i was referring to the importance given to education. Even over experience. Perhaps it's a class thing ? (just entertaining thought stuff )
Oh, see what you mean now.
Birdman wrote:
Now you're using the concept "awareness"
No. i was using it in the mundane way. meaning the happening of noticing without judgement. Perhaps saying that 'noticing illuminates' might have been better ?
Ok! Excuse my questioning but feels it's important that I get what you're saying.
Birdman wrote:
But also frustrating that there's nothing that can be done.
Ah, this is shining a light on the compulsive nature of the chapter on responsibility. Have a look at what is written (in your story of Self) on 'responsibility'.
Yes, remember, the story of responsibility and obsessing with the nature of it and wanting to "know". Do you mean a letting go of the to "know" and to "do"? Problem is how to stop an old conditioning?
Birdman wrote:
Does the "material world" at all exist other than by experiencing from "inside"?
The answer to that one hasn't emerged from the great mystery for vince yet.
Good! I'm not alone.
Birdman wrote:
When you do this, do you find anything more than beliefs ?
Well, no...
So if there is only beliefs, then it becomes a simple matter of recognising the useful ones, and allowing all other thoughts to waft through into the great mystery.
Experience here, tells me that the useful ones call out to me. eezy peezy.
That was about "knowing" again... Yes purely beliefs, thoughts! Seems that there's stickiness all the time these concepts come up - "doing" and "knowing". I'm perfectly ok with the beauty of life "happening" or "unfolding". Sensed it very clearly during the day. But can't seem to get that there's nothing to "do" or "know" within that which unfolds. Uncomfortable feeling of predestination/blind destiny unfolds when looking into that nothing seems to be possible to "do".
Re. "knowing", maybe it's the concept of "trust" that is an issue. Seems like knowing and trusting belong together. Ha! I can hear how ridiculous this sounds but on some plane arises how can what is not "known" be "trusted"? It doesn't make sense in the big scheme. Two concepts woven by layers of thought that in some way could/should be "known" in order to be "trusted". Will this ever be seen beyond??
i DO know what you are saying, and accept that this is my story, but that sounds like mythology to me.
Certainly, it is true from a cultural perspective, and consequently is the way the protagonist experiences it. ..but there are alternative ways to experience it. Let's see if you still describe it in this way in a year from now.
I am prepared to change perspectives otherwise we wouldn't be investigating this. It is hugely being looked forward to! Some changes is already happened but as I said a couple of posts ago; it's wobbly :) "Knowing" and "doing" need more grinding and seeing through.

Best regards
Birdman

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vinceschubert
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Re: Birdman

Postby vinceschubert » Sun May 29, 2016 3:03 pm

Good evening Birdman,
Excuse my questioning
Of course !
but feels it's important that I get what you're saying.
Yes. ..and i'm happy to gnaw at anything until it is 'got'.
Problem is how to stop an old conditioning?
There's no problem, and to give old conditioning energy, is to strengthen it. Stopping happens. Not as something we do. (that's laughable) It simply takes recognition that old conditioning is active. Nothing more required. ..although, to celebrate that recognition, will hasten the whole process - hugely.
But can't seem to get that there's nothing to "do" or "know" within that which unfolds.
Ok, this is more subtle. (and so, more difficult to articulate) To say "that which unfolds", there is a suggestion that there is something to which unfolding is happening.
Then when you say "within that which unfolds", there is the implication that there is a 'within' and a 'without'.
If you were to say that 'life happens'. You would be implying that there is someone to whom life is happening.
This is language. It paints what is real for us. ..but it lies. ..but you have already seen this, haven't you ?
So, the closest we can get to an accurate description, might be to say that THIS is Life-ing.
..and it is totally expressed in your experiencing. There is nothing else. nothing..
It doesn't make sense
Of course. Nothing does. The mind is obsessed with labeling, describing, categorizing. As soon as one question is satisfied, another arises. There is no final point. It is on steroids. Never stops (until sleep or death) It is a constant attempt to feel good. With resolution, there is a sensation of satisfaction. "That was great, now, let's do it again".
Where we are going, no word can follow.
We will run out of words for this stuff soon.
"Knowing" and "doing" need more grinding and seeing through.
Did we experience a shift on this stuff yet ?
If you use mind to focus on the bits, then the bigger picture is missed.
Think of "knowing" and "doing" as shitting and pissing.
They are just stuff that happens.
It's a mystery, how and why, and not worth chasing, 'cos all we will end up with is a story that might or might not be accurate. (probably not)

love

vince
liberation starts with recognising some illusions

http://www.1ness.info

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Re: Birdman

Postby Birdman » Sun May 29, 2016 8:34 pm

Dearest Vince!
Birdman wrote:
but feels it's important that I get what you're saying.
Yes. ..and i'm happy to gnaw at anything until it is 'got'.
Feelings of being a real nit picker. To put it mildly, don't like that trait especially when seen in this mind.
Seems all is so close, have had not only moments but days of clear seeing, quietness, simplicity freedom and sense of liberation from "me". Keep falling back though. Or do "I" really? Maybe expectations pulling my leg?
Birdman wrote:
Problem is how to stop an old conditioning?
There's no problem, and to give old conditioning energy, is to strengthen it. Stopping happens. Not as something we do. (that's laughable) It simply takes recognition that old conditioning is active. Nothing more required. ..although, to celebrate that recognition, will hasten the whole process - hugely.
Giving old conditioning energy could happen by just dwelling on it you mean? Only noticing "There it goes again" with a smile..? Will celebrate each recognition with a virtual pils :P
Birdman wrote:
But can't seem to get that there's nothing to "do" or "know" within that which unfolds.
Ok, this is more subtle. (and so, more difficult to articulate) To say "that which unfolds", there is a suggestion that there is something to which unfolding is happening.
Then when you say "within that which unfolds", there is the implication that there is a 'within' and a 'without'.
If you were to say that 'life happens'. You would be implying that there is someone to whom life is happening.
This is language. It paints what is real for us. ..but it lies. ..but you have already seen this, haven't you ?
So, the closest we can get to an accurate description, might be to say that THIS is Life-ing.
..and it is totally expressed in your experiencing. There is nothing else. nothing..
Yes... I get that, maybe the heart of the matter? So close, so close... It's here, it's gone...frustrating. You are perfectly right pointing this out (of course). Embarrassment happens. Hmm, this "no-me" whatever-it-is, is not separate from the unfolding. Non-dualism realms now. No subject to that which unfolds. "What is" is same as "no-me"?
Then when you say "within that which unfolds", there is the implication that there is a 'within' and a 'without'.
This is hard as it is language wise and not being native English speaking sure doesn't make it easier. Had no thought of that should also be a "without". Should have stuck to "This". Or maybe "that"..? I only meant That what is.
This is language. It paints what is real for us. ..but it lies. ..but you have already seen this, haven't you ?
No, apparently not... More and more confusion instead of clarity. Sorry... Honestly thinking of calling this off. This semantic business is far beyond me now. Totally loosing the grip.
So, the closest we can get to an accurate description, might be to say that THIS is Life-ing.
..and it is totally expressed in your experiencing. There is nothing else. nothing..
I'm ok with that from a language point of view. I understand what you are saying but frustration has now reached a level that I barely can't cope with. Remember the dead end street with brick walls covered in graffiti? That's where I still am at. Should we take a break?
Birdman wrote:
It doesn't make sense
Of course. Nothing does. The mind is obsessed with labeling, describing, categorizing. As soon as one question is satisfied, another arises. There is no final point. It is on steroids. Never stops (until sleep or death) It is a constant attempt to feel good. With resolution, there is a sensation of satisfaction. "That was great, now, let's do it again".
Where we are going, no word can follow.
We will run out of words for this stuff soon.
Probably. And all I can think of is "words". Maybe I'm not gifted enough for this kind of enquiries?
Birdman wrote:
"Knowing" and "doing" need more grinding and seeing through.
Did we experience a shift on this stuff yet ?
A temporary shift has been clearly experienced as I explained above not only in bolts of insight but even hours, days of freedom but mind keeps coming back.
If you use mind to focus on the bits, then the bigger picture is missed.
Think of "knowing" and "doing" as shitting and pissing.
They are just stuff that happens.
It's a mystery, how and why, and not worth chasing, 'cos all we will end up with is a story that might or might not be accurate. (probably not)
Realise the above, mentally nearsighted... That last paragraph struck something in me. Of course love the down-to-earth angle!! Makes sense though! But dear Vince, I don't see how I ever can get past the "how" and "why", the "knowing" and the "doing" and settle for something that for me has an odour of predestination and passivity. I really don't know if there is any point for me wasting your time as it seems this "me" has come to a halt in this enquiry. Too much frustration, and maybe too high expectations, maybe a sort of language barrier? Not that I don't understand what you write but maybe having trouble reading between the lines. The finer nuances.
I don't know if you have had a "patient" this tough before. Do you have any clue on how to get any further? Because getting only more and more entangled in words and their meaning. I feel that I, as you say "focus on the bits, then the bigger picture is missed."

Thanks for all your patience!!

Birdman

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Re: Birdman

Postby Birdman » Sun May 29, 2016 11:35 pm

Missed at first the sentence about "resolution". So being resolved on, in my case not to obsess over "knowing" and "doing" could be an opening..? Really loved the metaphore with the bodily functions! That thoughts about "doing" and "knowing" happens but should be left with that established. No need to dwell on just as little as shitting or pissing!! Beauty!!

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Re: Birdman

Postby vinceschubert » Mon May 30, 2016 3:30 pm

Good evening Birdman,
Feelings of being a real nit picker. To put it mildly, don't like that trait especially when seen in this mind.
Oh, that story really pushes some buttons for you ? (have you chuckled over this yet ?)
Keep falling back though. Or do "I" really?
Do you mean, back to the same as you were before ?
Keep falling back though.
So you realize that it has happened, or you couldn't report it.
How many realizations does it take to dissolve a habit ?
No, apparently not... More and more confusion instead of clarity. Sorry... Honestly thinking of calling this off. This semantic business is far beyond me now. Totally loosing the grip.
This blows me away. i suddenly wonder what i have missed.
A moment ago it was "have had not only moments but days of clear seeing, quietness, simplicity freedom and sense of liberation", ..and now you're thinking of throwing the towel in.
i'm confused.
frustration has now reached a level that I barely can't cope with
Ah, this dispels my confusion.
Oh, i know about frustration. i use to get really angry when i was frustrated.
Should we take a break?
Sure, just post here again when you are ready to continue.
i would suggest that you put this whole thing out of your head for a couple of days, then re-read out thread, looking for red (or is it blue) pills.

love, compassion, and friendship.

vince
liberation starts with recognising some illusions

http://www.1ness.info

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Re: Birdman

Postby Birdman » Mon May 30, 2016 4:07 pm

Dear Vince!
No towels will be thrown or otherwise maltreated here, but at the same time don't want to waste your time as it seems I keep falling back all the time, not getting it. But it is true! - I have had (even shorter periods even of) beautiful enlightening experiences and deep quiet and peace happening! Yes frustration happens for sure. I'm not getting angry outwards but instead blaming myself. Aggression mostly directed inward here.
Take a rest from this tough "patient". Will reread everything we discussed and be back.

Hugs
Birdman

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Re: Birdman

Postby Birdman » Thu Jun 09, 2016 6:11 pm

G'day Vince!

Hope you're alright. Shall we go on for a bit? I have started to translate "Enlightening Quotes". Refreshing and exiting.
Otherwise not much has happened since last posting. I will soon be back at the island and hopefully have some calm happening. Looking at experiencing of this nothingness. Wonder a lot about the significance of the experienced "openings", the still eruptions of clarity, quiet of mind and peace that lasted a day or so at two occasions. Hallucinations or something real? A memory trace of a dream now anyway. Like Gollum, longing for "my precious"...
Feel rather empty of words and don't know where to begin again. I'm sure you have some revealing questions.

Hugs

Birdman

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Re: Birdman

Postby vinceschubert » Fri Jun 10, 2016 2:18 pm

'evening Birdman,
Shall we go on for a bit?
Yes, pleased that you're back.
and hopefully have some calm happening.
Yes, calm is nice. Pleasant.
..but be reminded that it is but a small part of the human repertoire.
Looking at experiencing of this nothingness.
The experiencing of this nothing ness is with you always. It is only the looking that calm expedites.
Hallucinations or something real?
Explain the difference ? Do this not from theory, but from experience. What are the qualities of something real, and what are the qualities of an experiential hallucination ?
Like Gollum, longing for "my precious"...
..and just like Gollum, you will suffer the whole time you don't have it. How long can a state last ?

love

vince
liberation starts with recognising some illusions

http://www.1ness.info

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Re: Birdman

Postby Birdman » Sat Jun 11, 2016 5:12 pm

Dear Vince!

Sorry for bad copy/paste. Away from computer only the pad with me. Doesn't seem to work.

Dear Vince!


Birdman wrote:
Shall we go on for a bit?
Yes, pleased that you're back.

Glad to be back!

Birdman wrote:
and hopefully have some calm happening.
Yes, calm is nice. Pleasant.
..but be reminded that it is but a small part of the human repertoire.

Yes sure, was thinking of the openings and what was experienced then. Still wonder about their significance.

Birdman wrote:
Looking at experiencing of this nothingness.
The experiencing of this nothing ness is with you always. It is only the looking that calm expedites.

Yes, if I understand you right, "expedite" here meaning "make easier"/"facilitate". So the calm is only making seeing happening easier...

Birdman wrote:
Hallucinations or something real?
Explain the difference ? Do this not from theory, but from experience. What are the qualities of something real, and what are the qualities of an experiential hallucination ?

From a dE point of view there doesn't seem to be any difference. Mind seems to decide what is what. Both are products of experiencing what is now. The "qualities" seem decided by the mind.

Birdman wrote:
Like Gollum, longing for "my precious"...
..and just like Gollum, you will suffer the whole time you don't have it. How long can a state last ?

Yes, it seems so! A state can last indefinitely if nothing stops the state happening, like realisation, seeing and the state (story) is seen through.

Hugs
Birdman

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Re: Birdman

Postby vinceschubert » Sun Jun 12, 2016 4:19 am

i'll be back in a few hours, in the meantime have a read of this lovely lady;
Joan Tollifson
June 2 at 12:39am · Politics · Thoughts

If you stop thinking just for a moment, what remains? There is still hearing-seeing-smelling-breathing-heart-beating-sensing-perceiving-awaring...yes? Not those words or concepts, but the actuality to which they point—the green of the leaves, the sounds of the traffic, the sensations of breathing, the knowingness of being present...all of it, one whole effortless happening.

Thought comes and goes. It labels what is being perceived, comments on it, judges it, evaluates, compares, tells stories, etc. The more you pay attention, the more you can discern the difference between thoughts and sensations, and between thinking and awaring. You can’t think your way to “getting” this. Clarity comes from paying attention wordlessly, and this attention is an open, spacious, relaxed devotion to the present moment, just as it is. Listening, seeing, being aware, being this boundless present moment. This is what intelligent meditation is all about.

You begin to see that the “me” who is supposedly the thinker, the meditator, the doer, the chooser, the experiencer, the controller, etc. is nothing more than a kind of intermittent mental mirage made up of thoughts, mental images, memories, sensations, and emotions. The more closely you look for the “me,” the more you discover it can’t be found. It is like chasing a mirage. Simultaneously, you begin to feel yourself as the unbound spaciousness of presence-awareness, the seamless fluidity of present experiencing, the vibrant aliveness of Here / Now, the infinite and most intimate Ultimate Subject from which nothing stands apart. It’s not that you’re THINKING of yourself as unbound awareness, or TRYING to remember to identify yourself as unbound awareness. It’s that you simply notice that you already ARE unbound awareness. And you notice that this boundless awareness has space for everything to be just as it is.

The deeply engrained habit is to try to resolve our doubts and uncertainties by thinking about all of this and trying to figure it out mentally in our heads. But the key to waking up is in being present, being aware, being embodied—and by embodied, I mean awake to the somatic sensations and energies that we think of as “my body.” Paradoxically, the more awareness and presence we bring to the body, the more we realize experientially that there is no body in the way we think there is—“the body” is a concept, while the actuality of what we call “the body” is fluid and alive, moving and changing, subtle and space-like, with no boundary between inside and outside.

Feeling the sensations in the body, feeling the breathing. Hearing the birdsong, the traffic sounds, the barking dog, the airplane passing overhead, the rain pattering on the roof. Smelling the coffee, tasting it, savoring it. Enjoying the colors and shapes and the whole visual dance of the moment in the way that you might enjoy abstract art or a plotless movie or the tumbling shapes in the kaleidoscope, as pure visual sensation. Seeing the thoughts as they arise without believing them or following them or getting caught up in their content. Allowing them to come and go without resisting them or judging them or getting caught up in secondary thoughts about the thoughts. In other words, simply being present as the living reality Here / Now, just as it is, without trying to change or understand it. This is true meditation or devotion to what is.

But don’t try to “do” all of this perfectly or “all the time,” and don’t make it into some methodical practice, but simply allow it to happen naturally whenever it invites you. This isn’t some kind of effortful, goal-oriented task in which we need to strain and struggle in order to achieve some result. It’s not about getting anywhere other than Here / Now, and it’s not about getting rid of anything that is showing up. It is simply being Here / Now. Being here is effortless. There is nothing to get, nothing that needs to happen, nothing that needs to be achieved or resisted or eliminated or figured out.

And if you notice that you ARE trying to figure it all out, or trying to do something or make something happen or “get” something or get rid of something, or if you notice that you are judging yourself or evaluating your progress, simply recognize (SEE) that this is happening, and that all of this is nothing more than a movement of conditioned thought, an old habit, a compulsive pattern of the universe—see it for what it is and allow it to pass through. Don’t imagine that these old habits mean something about the mirage-like “me,” that they are signs of spiritual failure or personal lack. They are nothing more than conditioned patterns of energy happening to no one. You are the awareness beholding them, and awareness is unconditioned and free. So, simply see these movements of thought for what they are and allow them to come and go naturally. Allow the sensations that accompany these thoughts to unfold and move naturally in the body as pure energy, and allow them to dissolve in their own time. Awareness is unconditional love. It’s not about resisting and hating these old patterns, but simply bringing them into the light. This is all about devotion to what is. It’s not a self-improvement project.

So don’t look for results. That’s the trap and the old habit of the mind—to get lost in past or future. You’re not going anywhere. This isn’t about vanquishing thoughts or achieving some fantasy version of enlightenment in which you always feel calm and blissful and spacious and loving. Rather, this is about discovering how it actually is Here / Now, however it is. It’s not about coming up with a conceptual formulation or a label or a description or an explanation for how it is, or getting some kind of mental picture or mental map nicely arranged in your head, but instead, simply being awake Here / Now, effortlessly—noticing how it actually is without needing to grasp or define it in any way. Simply hearing-seeing-sensing-awaring-thinking-being, just as it is. Just this!

If it feels complicated or difficult, that’s a clue that we’re thinking again, trying to grasp it conceptually or make something happen. Reality itself is simple, effortless, always already here. So if it seems otherwise, that’s the invitation to investigate directly—to stop, look and listen—to explore, and to relax into the simplicity of what is.

Don’t go to war with complexity or restlessness or resistance or efforting or confusion or seeking or trying or obsessive thinking if any of that shows up, but simply be aware of it—see the thoughts, feel the sensations in the body—allow it to be as it is, feel how it is, allow it to move through naturally. Meet whatever shows up with awareness, which is another word for unconditional love or acceptance or welcoming or the openness of not knowing. Simply be aware—and notice that awareness is always already fully present.

This kind of true meditation can happen anywhere—in an armchair or on a meditation cushion, at home or while riding on the city bus or in an airplane or in a waiting room. It doesn’t require a quiet setting or any particular posture. Your eyes can be open or closed. In fact, we might even notice that meditation is always happening—that meditation is the very nature of Here / Now.
liberation starts with recognising some illusions

http://www.1ness.info

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Re: Birdman

Postby Birdman » Mon Jun 13, 2016 10:36 pm

Dear Vince!

Thank you for lovely down to earth text on what could be a esoteric subject. There were so many places that I could relate to as if it was written for me. As I still can't figure out how to quote with my iPad I will be back as soon as I'm with the computer.

Hugs
Birdman

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Re: Birdman

Postby Birdman » Tue Jun 14, 2016 9:15 am

Dear Vince!

Again, a heartfelt thanks for presenting this text by Joan T. I have a feeling that maybe it is a beautiful final of our inquiry. As all this is beyond words and as you put it "we will soon run out of them".
I hope I can contact you again if necessary.

All the best!

Birdman

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Re: Birdman

Postby Birdman » Tue Jun 14, 2016 11:05 am

BTW Vince, still wondering about the significance of the powerful/powerless but beautiful "openings" or whatever they might be labelled as... Just beautiful happenings in the stream I guess, not more or less significant than anything else that unfolds. If I try to answer myself...

Birdman

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Re: Birdman

Postby vinceschubert » Tue Jun 14, 2016 2:13 pm

Good evening Birdman,
I have a feeling that maybe it is a beautiful final of our inquiry.
Oh no. Don't go.
As all this is beyond words and as you put it "we will soon run out of them".
When i run out of words, i will start throwing rocks.
I hope I can contact you again if necessary.
Anytime. email; vinceschubert@gmail.com
still wondering about the significance of the powerful/powerless but beautiful "openings"
They were what they were. ..or more accurately, they were what they were interpreted to be, at the level of the organism (not the conscious mind)
If you see a rope in the grass and think that it's a snake, and recoil, would you say that you saw a snake at the brain level, then discovered that it was just rope ?

If you think that we aren't getting anywhere, i can see if another guide might 'connect' with you. (if you wish)
Here, there is no interest in aborting our inquiry.

..and i'm not worrying about quotes. Just put the question on it's own line and i will work it out.

love

vince
liberation starts with recognising some illusions

http://www.1ness.info


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