Pointing Towards Liberation

[lorepep]

Hi Michael,

Great job, indeed!

I'd suggest you to repeat the exercise as you go through everyday life and you feel identification. Just see what is a story and what is not and take a step away from the story. We all feel the identification every now and then out from habit. I feel it is a gradual process.

You cannot create although you can feel as if you can

will never understand why I feel them to be me

Can a 'self' be found which feels those sensations?
Close your eyes and and focus on one sensation, it may be the pressure of the chair on lower body or every other sensation is fine, is there a 'me' feeling it? Explore and report what pops up

Thanks

L

[freebirdy]

Hey Lorenzo,

Hope the weekend is good for you my friend.
Ill spend the comtemplating the above and report back tomorrow.

Regards
Michael.

[freebirdy]

Hey Lorenzo,

Can a 'self' be found which feels those sensations?

No; it seems to be that they are just arising out of nothing.

Close your eyes and and focus on one sensation, it may be the pressure of the chair on lower body or every other sensation is fine, is there a 'me' feeling it? Explore and report what pops up

When I focus on say my legs and bottom sitting it chair what is felt is the pressure sensation that come from contact between the two surfaces. The sensation is appearing into experience; there is no sense of ownership.
The same goes with my elbow on the table; just sensation.

Regards
Michael.

[lorepep]

Hi Michael,

it seems to be that they are just arising out of nothing.

Are you sure? Are you completely clear about this?

focus on say my legs and bottom

What is focusing? Can you find something that direct or control the attention?

Thanks
L

[freebirdy]

Are you sure? Are you completely clear about this?

Yes; everything thing just 'pops up'. There is no person doing it. There is no person thinking up ideas and images; it all just happens.
I can get sucked into feeling or thinking that I (who does not even exist) is doing something. This all an illusion and is what is happening.

What is focusing? Can you find something that direct or control the attention?

Focusing seems to be the laying of your attention onto something in particular in experience. I have to admit that it does feel like somebody is shifting focus around in their experience; although so much focusing just seems to happen through the day that is not owned by anyone.

I think this is an important area. So many people out their seem to be at a place where they are sort of just aware of everything that is happening without getting sucked in. This awareness seem to operate from some center or hub that does feel as it is in control. It does seem to be a step back from the self and feels a lot less personal with leads to a nice peaceful feeling. In reality this is the self in operation from this central awareness using awareness as it alies. Have you any views on this??

[lorepep]

Let's put aside the awareness question for a moment, we'll return there soon.

I can get sucked into feeling

What do you mean by that? Is 'you' getting sucked? or is there just 'getting sucked' as a movement as all the others?

I have to admit that it does feel like somebody is shifting focus around in their experience; although so much focusing just seems to happen through the day that is not owned by anyone

Yes, indeed the 'self' owning, focusing, doing things it's pretty intermittent...this should tell you a lot.

Really explore the attention in direct experience. Is 'you' directing attention? How do you do it? Is there a thought popping up and focus shifts according to that thought? Can you say that there is a link between the thought and the attentions shift? Did, in that case, really attention move because of the thought? Can you be sure?

Thank you

L

[freebirdy]

What do you mean by that? Is 'you' getting sucked? or is there just 'getting sucked' as a movement as all the others?

I mean to say that I get sucked into certain thoughts and feelings that arise. There is a belief that they are me; me being the self. So some thoughts, sensations and feelings have a self quality. The self quality has a constricted feel to it when compared to wholeness. There seems to be different levels of self-consciousness. The higher the level of self consciousness the higher the constriction. Low levels of self feel a lot more freer and closer to the whole. This is based on what I experience. It also make sense.

The funny thing is this is just what is happening as in there is no separation. It just the self falsely believes itself to be a separate entity and this gives rise to the illusion of separation. It is its own worst enemy.

Really explore the attention in direct experience. Is 'you' directing attention? How do you do it? Is there a thought popping up and focus shifts according to that thought?

It does feel that the command and control is centralized during direct experience. In truth there is nobody home at the center and it is what is just happening. I am taking here about when I make a conscious attempt to. The feeling of self is subtle during forced direct experience but Id be lying to say that it is not felt. If it were this easy I would be liberated by now!!

When I experience directly during the day there is a feeling that it just happens and there is no silly robotic like relation to a center. There is also a feeling that I am what I experience. It a close or intimate feeling and flows.

Is there a thought popping up and focus shifts according to that thought? Can you say that there is a link between the thought and the attentions shift? Did, in that case, really attention move because of the thought? Can you be sure?

Well I suppose attention lands on what it deems to be the most important thing going on at any giving moment. You can not know elements of the whole experience unless your attention lands on it. Even though the eyes might be doing there job and taking in all sights in its field vision, unless attention is place on the image received you cannot know it.

Can you say that there is a link between the thought and the attentions shift Did?, in that case, really attention move because of the thought? Can you be sure?

You cant say there is a direct link between the two. Sometimes it seems to be the case. I have a sneaky suspicion that the body is much more intelligent than the mind. I reckon attention works more with the body and thoughts are just arising in most cases so you, the self, still feel a sense of control. I could be wrong. In conclusion attention has its own intelligence.

Regards
Michael

[lorepep]

Hi Michael,

So some thoughts, sensations and feelings have a self quality. The self quality has a constricted feel to it when compared to wholeness.

This self quality, this 'sense of self', I guess it is a sensation.

Now, try this:
Close eyes and imagine you are holding an object, let's say a spoon. Imagine it as fully and vividly as you can, so that the sensations are felt. Weight, texture, temperature, color, shape. Put effort into creating the full image.

Then open your eyes. What happened to the spoon? Was the spoon really there? Were the sensation of the spoon demonstrating that the spoon was real? What happened to sensations? Were the sensations really felt?

Spend some time with this.

Thank
L

[freebirdy]

Hey Lorenzo,

Hope you are good buddy!

This self quality, this 'sense of self', I guess it is a sensation.

Now, try this:
Close eyes and imagine you are holding an object, let's say a spoon. Imagine it as fully and vividly as you can, so that the sensations are felt. Weight, texture, temperature, color, shape. Put effort into creating the full image.

Then open your eyes. What happened to the spoon? Was the spoon really there? Were the sensation of the spoon demonstrating that the spoon was real? What happened to sensations? Were the sensations really felt?

Spend some time with this.

Interesting and experience provoking exercise!

Ok; so I close my eyes and imagine that I am holding a spoon in my hand.
You can really see thought at work when trying to create the image of a spoon. It is like a holographic machine and, like when you unplug a holographic machine, if you stop the thought or it is interrupted the image of the spoon falls away.

Another interesting aspect is the sensations that are created to accompany the thought. The mind generates a sensation like it would be like if the spoon was actually in reality touching my hand. Amazing really. Even more amazing is the fact that the mind can create a actual sensation from memory.

The creation of a sensation in not an issue unless of course you belief it to be true. Problems can occur when a situation is not really seen for what it is. It is easy for me to make the connection that if the spoon sensations is not real then the self sensation is equally unreal. Our sense of self is a complete fabrication of the mind; lol, that's funny. The spoon is swapped for
self in the mind. When I stop imagining the spoon it disappears; same with the self. The mind thinks it has a self and lots of its thought surround this belief. The sensations are fabricated to make it even feel more real.

When I am feeling this sensation of self with what seems to be no thoughts, I am actually imagining it. The thought is the sensation. It is unbelievable that most people in the world are buying into something that is not even there; they are a living idea. I need to see through this sensation.

Reagrds
Michael

[lorepep]

I am actually imagining it. The thought is the sensation. It is unbelievable that most people in the world are buying into something that is not even there; they are a living idea. I need to see through this sensation.

Are you imagining the sensantion or is the sensation there and thoughts say that this familiar sensation is 'you'?
Despite what thoughts say, are 'you' this sensation?
When you were a child did your thoughts about Santa being real make actually Santa real?

We are not after what SEEMS to be true here, rather we are after what IS true.

What do you mean by "seeing through this sensation"? What do you expect to happen?

Thanks
L

[freebirdy]

Hey Lorenzo,

Are you imagining the sensantion or is the sensation there and thoughts say that this familiar sensation is 'you'?

well If I look without thinking them the sensation seems to be there. It might appear to be some sort of tension band across the heart area of my torso. It is a tightness of sorts. It is what it is when just directly looking. When a thought is superimposed onto this area then a self is created. I seem to find that thoughts sort of feed off sensations to validate themselves as real.

Despite what thoughts say, are 'you' this sensation?

Well no, the sensation is merely sensation. I think it is me.

When you were a child did your thoughts about Santa being real make actually Santa real?

unfortunately even though I really thought Santa was real and actually existed in the flesh somewhere out there in the world it turned that he wasn't. What this tells me is thoughts are not an indication of the truth.

What do you mean by "seeing through this sensation"? What do you expect to happen?

Seeing through a sensation is when I just see it for what it is; it takes on an impersonal quality when directly looking. Me expecting anything to happen is just getting caught up in the unreality of thought. Anything I expect to happen to just opinion based on memory. You might expect, although only a story, for some of your self investment in the forms of thought and feeling to fall away when it is know that there is no self. Although you could still continue pretending to have this central self but I imagine things to be never to be the same. It might be like when I found out for Santa to be unreal and I still believed in it for about a year or so but it was never the same.

Regards
Michael.

[lorepep]

Seeing through a sensation is when I just see it for what it is; it takes on an impersonal quality when directly looking.

Can you do that? Can you see the sensation for what it is, without the thoughts saying that the sensation is you?
If you focus on the sensing, rather than to the sensation as an object, what happens?

Now, if I tell you that there is no "self" in reality, in any form...how do you feel about that? What pops up?

Thank you

L

[freebirdy]

Can you do that? Can you see the sensation for what it is, without the thoughts saying that the sensation is you

Yes; when I say I can see the sensation for what it is, I mean to say that I see as it some sort of undesirable feeling. I suppose sensations are mysteries.

If you focus on the sensing, rather than to the sensation as an object, what happens?

Well whats happen is you see the sensations as just that. Though you might try and label it. Im sure you know this is difficult area to describe as it nothing really.

Now, if I tell you that there is no "self" in reality, in any form...how do you feel about that? What pops up

I would have to agree with you. The idea of it feels very alien to me. In truth the self for me now seems like a memory; as in it seems to have melted away massively into something that is much vaster. When you are in the vastness there are no such question as this self issue. For me to know what your talking I have to enter into thought.

Regards
Michael

[lorepep]

I would have to agree with you. The idea of it feels very alien to me. In truth the self for me now seems like a memory; as in it seems to have melted away massively into something that is much vaster. When you are in the vastness there are no such question as this self issue. For me to know what your talking I have to enter into thought.

Ok, but how do you feel emotionally regarding to that statement?

Thanks

L

[freebirdy]

Hey Leroenzo,

Ok, but how do you feel emotionally regarding to that statement?

lorepep wrote:
Now, if I tell you that there is no "self" in reality, in any form...how do you feel about that? What pops up

Well to start with if you asked me this a couple of weeks ago I would of felt resistance in the form of fear. When I hear that now; It doesn't seem to effect, as in nothing much pops up emotionally. I can seen attempts been made to conjure up thoughts to create this self thing but it doesn't seem to hold very well.
It is as if the questions have stopped and the defense mechanism of the self has receded.