Birdman

[Birdman]

Dear Vince!

i'm not out to correct you, but for this exercise it is critical that you see the difference.
Can you say these things again as though it was from pure experiencing. No labels or concepts.

Yes, when I pressed the submit button I realised they would not pass. I don't mind being corrected but I guess you want it to be seen here.
"A sensation of strong light happens." Cannot "translate" "from/due to the sun". "Feeling body needs food/energy/nutrition". Can't say... Only labels, concepts. Sorry. This is a stumbling block.

seeing through language seem very important and powerful. Here maybe the power of words has been underestimated?
Yes, very much so. It is almost like trying to explain water to a fish.
Our language has evolved to reflect the consensus reality. Words don't exist for what is outside it.
A classic example of this is the abstract noun. eg; truth, reality, university, self (and all personal pronouns) etc.
We talk about them as if they were a thing, when they are actually a convenient label to describe a collection of characteristics.

Ha!, yes that's it! So close we don't notice it. Thinking of a saying by the Crete writer Nikos Kazantzakis: "Since we cannot change reality, let us change the eyes which see reality." Or "ears"...

Our language has evolved to reflect the consensus reality. Words don't exist for what is outside it.
A classic example of this is the abstract noun. eg; truth, reality, university, self (and all personal pronouns) etc.

Yes, read Ilonas(?) rhetoric about school/university in Gateless Gatecrashers. Quite startling for me at the time.

Birdman wrote:
but when you ask "What is being awake?"
That was a rhetorical question, followed by my story of what i see.

Rhetorical maybe but real for this sleeper. Life, awareness? Easier to say what it's not.

Birdman wrote:
If you think it's important I'd be interested in your view of these two concepts.
Ah, excellent that you recognize them as concepts. i use "awareness" in the literal sense of noticing. Using it with a capital A, as something mystical akin to a new age god, is to be avoided. That can't be known, and the word is corrupted as much as the word Enlightenment or God is.
Same for Consciousness. To be conscious of.. is to be aware of.. is to notice. This is as far as i go.

No idea what may unfold here. Awareness with capital A or lower case a... No way of knowing if this mind has any say in the matter.

Birdman wrote:
Ramana Maharshi and other people in non-dual context speak about the "Self" (as it seem to me) as the "awakened", the most refined and pure consciousness. Or maybe it is a religious overlay?
Agreed. A religious overlay.
Non-duality was the last adventure here before waking up. It contributed great possibilities for waking up for me. ..but in the end, turned out to be just another church.

Of course no idea what will happen. As you said consequences of realising no self is as varied as human life.
How would you, if you want to elaborate on non-duality "contributed great possibilities for waking up". Have been reading lots and lots of stuff on the subject.

Birdman wrote:
Have experienced a degree of "space" the last days but not the quietness and deep peace felt before.
There will, most likely be many iterations of this, happening while ever that brain operates.
Good stuff. Any confirming experience is welcome.

Yes, that's good stuff! There is something very close here, teasing. Enquiring "what's held back?" And "what's holding back".

Birdman wrote:
There still is a "me" albeit more quiet.
Do you mean "a sense of me" ? Is that why you put me in quotes ?

Yes, as there is no real self.
Although that's not really felt and digested, more conceptual at this stage. But yet - not entirely...

Hmm, i'm back to telling you stuff, instead of asking you questions.
Are there any areas that you can think of that we can explore (while we wait for grace to strike)

Ha! Yes I'm sure there are. Some thoughts from today sitting at an outside cafe under the light, hot "orb" ;) "What am "I" if I'm not my body, brain, mind or thoughts?" Bodymind unit in life, as life? Emptiness, That..(maybe religious overtone)?
Fascinating to just sit peeling off labels. Sometimes the mind boggles.
What can be known for sure? Is another illusive question. Difficult to pin down here in dE. And even more difficult to dress in words.

Very best greetings
Birdman

[Birdman]

Definitely less obsessive thinking. Mostly on practical matters. A rather non obtrusive observer, hearer seem present. Stuff seem to unfold, happen. Am at my very old relatives helping out some. Lots of opportunities for troubling thoughts. So far seem not to get lost in them.

Cheers!
Birdman

[vinceschubert]

Good evening Birdman,

Definitely less obsessive thinking. Mostly on practical matters. A rather non obtrusive observer, hearer seem present. Stuff seem to unfold, happen. Am at my very old relatives helping out some. Lots of opportunities for troubling thoughts. So far seem not to get lost in them.

Excellent. This seems really significant to me.

A sensation of strong light happens.

Yes. good reporting.

Cannot "translate" "from/due to the sun".

Yes, exactly. Here we must depart from experiencing and enter story telling. There is nothing wrong with doing it, and everything right with recognizing that it it happening.

Can't say... Only labels, concepts. Sorry. This is a stumbling block.

You only stumble here if you try to do the impossible.

Life, awareness? Easier to say what it's not.

Even easier to leave it as a mystery.

elaborate on non-duality "contributed great possibilities for waking up"

Before stumbling on non-duality writings, i believed that there we hardly any awakened people in the world. Afterwards, i saw that it was possible for 'ordinary' people. It gave me hope. After attending meetings with Sailor Bob and John Wheeler (and others) i came away with much frustration, and a belief that they were religious nuts. Now, i have no opinion on it or them. i don't know what they 'have', but i do know that they were unable to communicate or point me fruitfully.

Have been reading lots and lots of stuff on the subject.

Has it been helpful ?

There is something very close here, teasing.

Ha, yes. i know (my version of) that feeling.

Enquiring "what's held back?" And "what's holding back".

Nothing. Wrong question. Understandable, but gets you looking in the wrong direction. It incites you to look for something to DO.
Try this; Enjoy the tease.
It is the foreplay. The tension that will propel you into a portal (when it appears)

Although that's not really felt and digested, more conceptual at this stage. But yet - not entirely...

Of course it becomes conceptual when you think about it.
When you are chewing your food. Does it just happen, or is there a self doing it before you think about it ?
Doesn't a sense of self only arrive when thought about it do ?

under the light, hot "orb"

Ha, you can say under the hot sun. i know what you mean. ..and i imagine that you are conscious that you are using a concept to communicate this.

"What am "I" if..

Again, wrong question. It presumes that you are something.
Instead of getting sucked in by the structure of the language, if you consider DE, you might ask "what is happening" and be content to consider a description story, and laugh when the mind wants to elaborate on how and why. (because that remains as part of the great mystery)

Sometimes the mind boggles

WonderFull, isn't it.


love

vince

[Birdman]

Wow! Found your blog. Not updated for a while apparently but some great wordings by you and this by Joan Tollifson:

“Delusions are inexhaustible,” as the Buddhist chant says. There is no end to delusion. And the good news is, delusion is not some terrible enemy. It is the mud that nurtures the lotus, the grit that creates the pearl. Our darkest struggles are often the greatest source of our love, compassion, humor and wisdom. Darkness and light, up and down are inseparable polarities in the dance of life, the wild ride with all its twists and turns that seems to be forever going somewhere but is actually always Here / Now.

And your words about "responsibility" that we talked about a week or so ago. That word appeared as a receipt of getting first grandchild!

[Birdman]

Excellent. This seems really significant to me.

Good, seems significant here also. Thoughts have been sensed to "own" this me before.

Yes, exactly. Here we must depart from experiencing and enter story telling. There is nothing wrong with doing it, and everything right with recognizing that it it happening.

Birdman wrote:
Can't say... Only labels, concepts. Sorry. This is a stumbling block.
You only stumble here if you try to do the impossible.

Ok so we have to wander into the realms of story, labels and consensus sometimes.

Birdman wrote:
Life, awareness? Easier to say what it's not.
Even easier to leave it as a mystery.

Can also happen. Nothing against mysteries. Yes, it was about what is being awake... You mean, not putting any labels on it? Not even "it" or "that"...

Birdman wrote:
elaborate on non-duality "contributed great possibilities for waking up"
Before stumbling on non-duality writings, i believed that there we hardly any awakened people in the world. Afterwards, i saw that it was possible for 'ordinary' people. It gave me hope. After attending meetings with Sailor Bob and John Wheeler (and others) i came away with much frustration, and a belief that they were religious nuts. Now, i have no opinion on it or them. i don't know what they 'have', but i do know that they were unable to communicate or point me fruitfully.

Birdman wrote:
Have been reading lots and lots of stuff on the subject.
Has it been helpful ?

I have heard/seen Sailor Bob on YT. Wheeler unknown to me. E. Tolle, R. Spira and J. Foster were common here on YT and as books.
Hm, yes see what you mean. Lots of beautiful words and concepts. Poetic even. But unfortunately nothing that satisfies the hunger or stills the itch. Frustration for sure. Food for dreams, maybe good as such? A little like "empty calories", sugar, sweets, candy. I am so glad I wound up here thanks to Lisa Kahale's YT and interview on LU. This concept of guiding via the web must be revolutionary! Like AA for seekers ;) For the first time get help to a possibility to see through the self for each and everyone. As for non dualism, who knows where a loss of me takes the Realiser? Thanks to all guides and to Ilona&Elena(?)who came up with this if I have understood it correctly. And at the cost of a self - zero money. Unbelievable!

Birdman wrote:
Enquiring "what's held back?" And "what's holding back".
Nothing. Wrong question. Understandable, but gets you looking in the wrong direction. It incites you to look for something to DO.
Try this; Enjoy the tease.
It is the foreplay. The tension that will propel you into a portal (when it appears)

Love this foreplay! Enjoying being teased but thoughts come up what climax might happen;) So enjoying this will continue happen. Also a keeping expectations down.

Birdman wrote:
Although that's not really felt and digested, more conceptual at this stage. But yet - not entirely...
Of course it becomes conceptual when you think about it.
When you are chewing your food. Does it just happen, or is there a self doing it before you think about it ?
Doesn't a sense of self only arrive when thought about it do ?

No, chewing happens, as do breathing and as it seems all/most bodily functions. I'm being breathed.

Birdman wrote:
Although that's not really felt and digested, more conceptual at this stage. But yet - not entirely...
Of course it becomes conceptual when you think about it.
When you are chewing your food. Does it just happen, or is there a self doing it before you think about it ?
Doesn't a sense of self only arrive when thought about it do ?

Hm...possibly... Looking into that happens. Membrane so thin between this and "That". Can't explain this...

Birdman wrote:
under the light, hot "orb"
Ha, you can say under the hot sun. i know what you mean. ..and i imagine that you are conscious that you are using a concept to communicate this.

Great! I do, must do most often when speaking

Birdman wrote:
"What am "I" if..
Again, wrong question. It presumes that you are something.
Instead of getting sucked in by the structure of the language, if you consider DE, you might ask "what is happening" and be content to consider a description story, and laugh when the mind wants to elaborate on how and why. (because that remains as part of the great mystery)

Hm, yes conditioning again. "Being something" must be high on top ten of most conditioned thoughts. What about "the space in which life happens"? Looked at my doggie and she seems to be a such. So why not this bodymind unit?

Birdman wrote:
Sometimes the mind boggles
WonderFull, isn't it.

Yes for sure! And just the quietening of the mind... Relief.

Question: let's say there is a sense of severe pain to something only uncomfortable in the body. How would you deal with that? The pain is very real but there is no addressee? What happens? Pain, discomfort but not personal... I wonder how that holds up with intense physical pain.

Hugs and heartfelt greetings

Birdman

[Birdman]

Vince, I have a question about dE. I think I get it with sensory input and the sense of aliveness in the body. But when sitting by the stream of life with your wash pan searching for the gold thoughts among all sand. How is it possible to separate the gold from the dust?

[vinceschubert]

Good evening Birdman,

But when sitting by the stream of life with your wash pan searching for the gold thoughts among all sand. How is it possible to separate the gold from the dust?

The dust is gold.
The point to realize is that we don't really need the gold, that we are already rich, and that the panning is just good entertainment.

Thoughts have been sensed to "own" this me before.

So how does "ownership" fit now ?

Ok so we have to wander into the realms of story, labels and consensus sometimes.

Yes, absolutely. We can neither describe or communicate without it.
Fortunately we have an amazing tool, called mind (thoughts) to do this. Very talented.
It just need re-training. (which is what we are doing)

You mean, not putting any labels on it? Not even "it" or "that"...

Hmm, yes. But can we do the "not putting.." thing. If it happens, then by the time it is noticed, it has happened. Noticing. Accepting this is all that is required. (if that happens)

Thanks to all..

The time will come when you may feel inclined to 'pay it forward', and it is highly recommended as a way to further your own 'deepening'. (i think that you will be good at it)

Also a keeping expectations down.

You don't need to inhibit them. Just be aware that they are happening.
You see, there is no right or wrong, just what IS.
The key is to recognize THIS, and surrender...

I'm being breathed.

Yes. Now is this a recognition, or is it a logical conclusion ?

What about "the space in which life happens"?

Ha, this seems to suggest that there is life happening and there is a space (and there is another space where life isn't happening)
Wouldn't life-ing be all inclusive ?
This is where the non-dualists fall over. If non-duality exists, wouldn't it include duality ? (obviously both are concepts)
Life is a concept, a label that is useful in certain circumstances, but we transcend the usefulness, the competence of words pretty quickly here.
i like the concept THIS, as most useful to describe 'All that IS'.

Looked at my doggie and she seems to be a such. So why not this bodymind unit?

i don't get this question.

let's say there is a sense of severe pain to something only uncomfortable in the body. How would you deal with that?

Good question, and relevant to me at the moment.
i have had mild to somewhat severe pain for about the past 5 weeks. (possibly kidney stones)
Firstly, i recognize that suffering starts with stories about the pain. So recognizing them as they arise eliminates this.
Then using DE to focus on the pain when it is severe, reveals that it is constantly changing (in both intensity and location) It only exists when attention is on it. There is much time when it is not noticed as attention is on other things. Although it is occasionally at intensity level of 4 or 5 out of 10, i find no need to use pain relief medication. (although i would if it reached 7 or 8) i went through this at the higher intensity just over 2 years ago and nothing was found with medical investigation. i do have a doctors appointment next Friday, but expect that nothing concrete will be found again, but having had bowel cancer (17 years ago) need to check if it's not a signal that something more serious than small kidney stones are responsible.

love

vince

[Birdman]

Birdman wrote:
But when sitting by the stream of life with your wash pan searching for the gold thoughts among all sand. How is it possible to separate the gold from the dust?
The dust is gold.
The point to realize is that we don't really need the gold, that we are already rich, and that the panning is just good entertainment.

So all thoughts are equal in "value" (yes, I know - concept). No thought are more true or valid than another in dE..?

Birdman wrote:
Thoughts have been sensed to "own" this me before.
So how does "ownership" fit now ?

Can't see that for a while now. Great relief. More Space. Hardly any identification. My name is like a sound with no meaning, could point to anyone(!) Although there is a story connected with it that can be retrieved should it be a need to. Identification can happen but wears off very fast. In seconds. Not that I have been heavily hit for a while.... The earlier reported palpitations and discomfort in throat-solar plexus area shines in its absence.

Birdman wrote:
Ok so we have to wander into the realms of story, labels and consensus sometimes.
Yes, absolutely. We can neither describe or communicate without it.
Fortunately we have an amazing tool, called mind (thoughts) to do this. Very talented.
It just need re-training. (which is what we are doing)

More a rhetorical parroting here to impress it

Birdman wrote:
You mean, not putting any labels on it? Not even "it" or "that"...
Hmm, yes. But can we do the "not putting.." thing. If it happens, then by the time it is noticed, it has happened. Noticing. Accepting this is all that is required. (if that happens)

Yes, that was originally about "what is being awake?" Not sure I follow...you mean noticing instead of tinkering with labels? So the original question is unnecessary or redundant? So one "proper" answer if it was put is: "Look, notice!"

Birdman wrote:
Thanks to all..
The time will come when you may feel inclined to 'pay it forward', and it is highly recommended as a way to further your own 'deepening'. (i think that you will be good at it)

If&when that time comes I'd be happy to share in one form or the other! Daunting to think about now :-o

Also a keeping expectations down.
You don't need to inhibit them. Just be aware that they are happening.
You see, there is no right or wrong, just what IS.
The key is to recognize THIS, and surrender...

First time you use "surrender" in this inquiry. There are potential difficulties here maybe. But a story of a longing for it to happen, a longing to trust, rest. Need to be sure what to surrender to. But I guess as you put it, "to recognize THIS, and surrender..." As "THIS=what IS" it would logically be madness/impossible not to surrender as it is already the case! It is already surrendered to, whether realised or not. So the key here is more to realise that. This instant is already here! Possible to surrender or not?

Birdman wrote:
I'm being breathed.
Yes. Now is this a recognition, or is it a logical conclusion ?

That's something realised and felt for a long time (years). Has been some sort of "anchor". Quite sure it's not logical. When looking, I think it's only a flowery way to say "breathing happens" with the undercurrent that breathing is not something "done" and this bodymind is part of something bigger. A kind of trust in THIS also in the undercurrent.

Birdman wrote:
What about "the space in which life happens"?
Ha, this seems to suggest that there is life happening and there is a space (and there is another space where life isn't happening)
Wouldn't life-ing be all inclusive ?
This is where the non-dualists fall over. If non-duality exists, wouldn't it include duality ? (obviously both are concepts)
Life is a concept, a label that is useful in certain circumstances, but we transcend the usefulness, the competence of words pretty quickly here.
i like the concept THIS, as most useful to describe 'All that IS'.

Absolutely! Didn't look that far or meant that there is a space where life is not happening. "What dimly/unclearly said is dimly/unclearly thought." (Pick the best adverb).

Not feeling like treading the path of talking non-duality. At least not yet.
"...but words are weak, let silence speak."

Birdman wrote:
Looked at my doggie and she seems to be a such. So why not this bodymind unit?
i don't get this question.

Ha! Neither do I. Never mind. Was about "What am I?" Tried in vain to utter something unutterable maybe.

Birdman wrote:
let's say there is a sense of severe pain to something only uncomfortable in the body. How would you deal with that?
Good question, and relevant to me at the moment.
i have had mild to somewhat severe pain for about the past 5 weeks. (possibly kidney stones)
Firstly, i recognize that suffering starts with stories about the pain. So recognizing them as they arise eliminates this.
Then using DE to focus on the pain when it is severe, reveals that it is constantly changing (in both intensity and location) It only exists when attention is on it. There is much time when it is not noticed as attention is on other things. Although it is occasionally at intensity level of 4 or 5 out of 10, i find no need to use pain relief medication. (although i would if it reached 7 or 8) i went through this at the higher intensity just over 2 years ago and nothing was found with medical investigation. i do have a doctors appointment next Friday, but expect that nothing concrete will be found again, but having had bowel cancer (17 years ago) need to check if it's not a signal that something more serious than small kidney stones are responsible.

At our age there is always something...
So to keep the pain itself down it rather shouldn't be observed or dE:ed? But the stories looked through ease the feeling of suffering. I can see and have seen fear arising from pain reinforcing each other.
But can a since 17 years cured illness have any bearing whatsoever today..?
I wish you all the best! Let's hope for kidney stones that can be relatively easy ground down with infrasound.

Hugs
Birdman

[vinceschubert]

Good evening Birdman,

So all thoughts are equal in "value"

What is "value" ?
Is it a story about something worth more than something else ?
i divide thoughts into roughly three categories. 1/useful, 2/a waste of everything, & 3/ entertaining.
The useful ones come with a certain flavor. They tap me on the shoulder and say "pssst..."
Number 2 i give the same amount of attention to as the sound of the refrigerator.
Number 3, well, i'm usually chuckling at seeing the ridiculous nature of them.

Can't see that for a while now. Great relief. More Space. Hardly any identification. My name is like a sound with no meaning, could point to anyone(!) Although there is a story connected with it that can be retrieved should it be a need to. Identification can happen but wears off very fast. In seconds. Not that I have been heavily hit for a while.... The earlier reported palpitations and discomfort in throat-solar plexus area shines in its absence.

Wow, good stuff. Sounds pretty awake to me.

Not sure I follow...you mean noticing instead of tinkering with labels?

Yes. No need to tinker. That can only interfere. Noticing. Then notice the noticing. This is the least intrusive course.
It is without opinion. No judgement. Just notice, accept, surrender (more on this in a minute)

Daunting to think about now

Did you notice the story that produced the daunting feeling ?

Need to be sure what to surrender to.

Not that kind of surrender. There is no relinquishing in this surrender. ..unless it is to relinquish any resistance to life-ing. (like tinkering with labels, with an intent to improve something. Hmm, i guess that these thoughts could fit into the Entertainment category.

it would logically be madness/impossible not to surrender as it is already the case! It is already surrendered to, whether realised or not. So the key here is more to realise that.

Yes. Do you grok this ?

A kind of trust in THIS also in the undercurrent.

Yes, absolutely. This kind of surrender.

So to keep the pain itself down it rather shouldn't be observed or dE:ed?

Yes is should. ..but mindfulness is weak, and within, at most, maybe a minute, that focus is on something else. Then there is no pain. ..and often, when occasional checking (for pain) happens, it is found not to be there. Then a conclusion (concept) happens that it must come and go.

But can a since 17 years cured illness have any bearing whatsoever today..?

yes, i recognize that a story exists with a belief setting, that says once you have had cancer, you are possibly more likely to get it again. It's seen as a story, but still it arises when the pain visits. It goes quickly, but that doesn't seem to dampen its' propensity for visiting.

I wish you all the best! Let's hope for kidney stones that can be relatively easy ground down with infrasound.

We will see.. (or not)

love

vince

[Birdman]

Dear Vince!

Birdman wrote:
So all thoughts are equal in "value"
What is "value" ?
Is it a story about something worth more than something else ?

Bad choise of words. Think what I meant was "relevance."
Love your thought categories! Will adopt them until own categories happen or not!

Really need to know more about dE:ing. Have read Jalaldeens article several times but need more. Any tips if you have, please

Birdman wrote:
Can't see that for a while now. Great relief. More Space. Hardly any identification. My name is like a sound with no meaning, could point to anyone(!) Although there is a story connected with it that can be retrieved should it be a need to. Identification can happen but wears off very fast. In seconds. Not that I have been heavily hit for a while.... The earlier reported palpitations and discomfort in throat-solar plexus area shines in its absence.
Wow, good stuff. Sounds pretty awake to me.

When I read it, it looks good and as honest I can possibly get.
It feels a little wobbly though. As if I don't dare rest in it. "Can this be it???" No trumpets, timpani, parades or fireworks... Again this impermanence, the arising and the falling away...
Also believe that here are high requirements for "knowing".

Birdman wrote:
Daunting to think about now
Did you notice the story that produced the daunting feeling ?

Yes, sure did! Forty years of conditioning talking. Time to perform, get dressed, tune that instrument, concentration, total focus. So, the daunting is to perform on the highest possible level. Need far more knowledge, experience and rehearsing to "go on stage".

Birdman wrote:
it would logically be madness/impossible not to surrender as it is already the case! It is already surrendered to, whether realised or not. So the key here is more to realise that.
Yes. Do you grok this ?

Interesting new word "grok", never heard before...
Pretty simple in its glaring light. Keeping the realisation "alive" is another matter. Realising that it is realised whether realised or not ;) It seem that in spite of agreeing that realising happens once, like learning to ride a bike, never forgotten, it still seems to need (time) to sink in. Maybe due to the new neuronal paths to form. What does an old "musicus" know..?

We will see.. (or not)

All fingers crossed here!!

All the best
Birdman

[vinceschubert]

Good evening Birdman,

Really need to know more about dE:ing.

Ok, do this; rest your left hand, palm down in front of you.
Now lean a little closer to it and start looking at it.
Notice the details.
Also notice how thoughts arise that label and describe what you are looking at.
Keep looking and let those thoughts pass through.
The space between thoughts will get bigger, and the thoughts demanding attention will fade into the background.
There will come a moment when you are seeing without thoughts.
The moment when you try to describe what you are seeing, thoughts will flood back in. Just let them pass through.
Keep looking until another moment of seeing without thoughts, happens.
This is Direct Experiencing.
Having this experience, you come to realize that the organism can operate without the need for thoughts.
..and (hopefully) you realize that ALL thoughts are fantasies. That they add a dimension that is either useful, a waste of energy, or entertaining.

It feels a little wobbly though.

Ha, does a baby wobble when learning to walk ?

As if I don't dare rest in it. "Can this be it???" No trumpets, timpani, parades or fireworks...

Ah yes. Doubt thoughts. They happen. Are they useful thoughts ?

Also believe that here are high requirements for "knowing".

Let me tell you a story.
When I was a kid, I use to read into the early hours of the morning, and it was always a chore to get out of bed and dressed for school. My mother use to have to wake me several times before it happened.
Anyway, one day she woke me in the usual fashion, and after dragging myself out of be and getting dressed, i was heading out of the bedroom door, when my mother woke me for school.
If you don't know that you're dreaming until you wake up, how do you know that this isn't a dream.
Is it possible to actually know anything ?
...or is knowing purely a concept ?

So, the daunting is to perform on the highest possible level.

Is this a useful story ?
Are you suffering from an illusion (delusion) that if you put pressure on yourself that you will perform better ?
Wouldn't you do your utmost to do your best anyway ?

Keeping the realisation "alive" is another matter.

Oh, that can't happen.
Despite folk lore saying that you should be aware of every movement of your jaw as you chew your food, the way we are built, requires that much of what we do, happens automatically. It is an efficiency matter.
The only time that we need to be aware, is when thing start going wrong. When negative emotion starts to arise.
Awareness happens (or not) It can no more be controlled than you can breathe every breath consciously.

it still seems to need (time) to sink in. Maybe due to the new neuronal paths to form.

Agree. But this is not predictable. ..and learning is quicker after sleep, and slower when tired or stressed. So it is infinitely variable. No point in looking to the future for some finish point.

What does an old "musicus" know..?

i know that i know nothing. ..and i'm not even sure of that.


love

vince

[Birdman]

Dear Vince!

This is Direct Experiencing.
Having this experience, you come to realize that the organism can operate without the need for thoughts.
..and (hopefully) you realize that ALL thoughts are fantasies. That they add a dimension that is either useful, a waste of energy, or entertaining.

Thanks, very nice description. Yes, have to go deeper here. Is it the same principle when examining an abstract or more complicated object?

Birdman wrote:
It feels a little wobbly though.
Ha, does a baby wobble when learning to walk ?

Wobbly little toddler :-*

Birdman wrote:
As if I don't dare rest in it. "Can this be it???" No trumpets, timpani, parades or fireworks...
Ah yes. Doubt thoughts. They happen. Are they useful thoughts ?

Not this, definitely category 2! But can imagine that there's a time for thoughts of doubt and/or questioning.

If you don't know that you're dreaming until you wake up, how do you know that this isn't a dream.

Hmm... I don't I guess. It seems all very real, the material world. However the "me" doesn't feel real, true or in existence most of the time. Nor experiencer. It's experiencing! Most of the time.

Is it possible to actually know anything ?
...or is knowing purely a concept ?

That depends what we put into the concept (yes it is a concept!). Those are questions that are being dealt with here. This question could easily lead very far philosophically. I don't know how far we shall take it. One trap is to confuse knowing with understanding or insight. We may know that a healthy life style is good for us but we may not know why. Knowing seldom makes us put on jogging shoes but maybe the understanding, the insight. We're again with the skilled furniture maker and burnt fingers on the boiling water. I don't know what we put in the concept "knowing". I seem to know that boiling water is hot and burns the skin. Also seem to know how to use my instrument. I seem know that there are sensory input via the senses.
But again it seems so. I really don't know if it's possible to Know or not. I wish I knew ;)

Birdman wrote:
So, the daunting is to perform on the highest possible level.
Is this a useful story ?
Are you suffering from an illusion (delusion) that if you put pressure on yourself that you will perform better ?
Wouldn't you do your utmost to do your best anyway ?

Daunting is to perform on a level people would have right to expect without being "well rehearsed" especially if it's not "your bag". Only "challenging" if you are well prepared. The pressure is not put by myself, it's only there, happening and a fact of life (in this experience). Our biological make up! I'd say it's much the same reaction in the body before performance/race as "fight or flight", very primitive. You can't "choose" to not have it - it happens, if anything happens. My experience is that adrenalin flow and the happening of excessive yawning to get carbon dioxide out of the blood to get more oxygen in helps the organism to perform, fight, run for your life or whatever at it's best. Thus says this old adrenalin junkie.

The only time that we need to be aware, is when thing start going wrong. When negative emotion starts to arise.
Awareness happens (or not) It can no more be controlled than you can breathe every breath consciously.

But it's there in the background all the time I guess, just in case..?

Birdman wrote:
it still seems to need (time) to sink in. Maybe due to the new neuronal paths to form.
Agree. But this is not predictable. ..and learning is quicker after sleep, and slower when tired or stressed. So it is infinitely variable. No point in looking to the future for some finish point.

Ah, "vanity of vanities..."

Birdman wrote:
What does an old "musicus" know..?
i know that i know nothing. ..and i'm not even sure of that.

Seen from this perspective, you seem to "know" a helluva lot!

Best heartfelt greetings

Birdman

[Birdman]

Dear Vince!

Sensing there is something important being bypassed here. Like I point or look in the wrong direction. A good bet is thoughts are misleading me. To much obsessing with semantics like "what is knowing", "is there knowing"? See, there I go again!!! Some cleaning must happen. But we must use thoughts to get rid of thoughts. Like a scalpel maybe is needed to fix a knife wound. All in not hopeless though. "Me" is often behaving, like being not there, but I tend to get lost in thought. Dissecting our findings "to try to be sure". Yes I hear how that sounds.. Don't know how proceeding will happen.
Nightly thoughts before turning out the light.
Birdman

[vinceschubert]

Good evening Birdman,

But we must use thoughts to get rid of thoughts.

Ha, we don't need to get rid of thoughts. Over time they will be like traffic noise. It is there, but when attention doesn't happen, they are so far in the background that they are not remembered. They don't touch consciousness. (unless they are saying that they are useful)

To much obsessing with semantics like "what is knowing", "is there knowing"? See, there I go again!!!

Yes, our cult(ure) has conditioned us to be habituated to a constant thought stream. i suspect that in times gone by, we humans thought that our minds were what differentiated us from the animals. We actually worshiped the mind.

Some cleaning must happen.

Yes, the light of awareness disperses the delusions.

but I tend to get lost in thought.

That is NOT a problem. It is an opportunity to develop the trigger to recognize what is happening. (the light)

Don't know how proceeding will happen.

Neither do i. WonderFull, isn't it ?

Is it the same principle when examining an abstract or more complicated object?

Perhaps the opposite. When examining an object we are more likely to pick out details and label and categorize. On the other hand to experience a direct, non verbal, taste of the object would certainly add to the examination.

But can imagine that there's a time for thoughts of doubt and/or questioning.

Yes, they could fit cat 1 on occasions.

It seems all very real, the material world.

Yes, and in the dream it seems very real too. It's only when we wake up that it seems less than real.

It's experiencing! Most of the time.

Yes, ok, so it's not the material world itself that seems very real, but the experience of it. ..and that is inside the organism with the label of Birdman. Do you grok this (did you look up grok ?)

This question could easily lead very far philosophically.

Yes it could, and one day we might do that for entertainment, but for the moment we need to look to experience or experiencing for the answer.
When you do this, do you find anything more than beliefs ?

The pressure is not put by myself,

Oh ?

You can't "choose" to not have it - it happens,

True, there is no Self to choose. Choice is really born of the alignment of conditions. How are you with public speaking ?
Just after i woke up, realizing that self was a story, i had to speak to a room full of strangers. i looked at the chapter that described Vince as very uncomfortable with this and replaced it with a Vince that was unselfconscious. It was animated and natural. i even cried in front of them without the slightest hint of apology. Did i choose or did it just happen ? If the idea hadn't happened, then the conditions for it to occur wouldn't have been present.

Seen from this perspective, you seem to "know" a helluva lot!

Ha, good story (maybe)

Best heartfelt greetings

Yes, and to you too.

love

vince

[Birdman]

Dear Vince,

Birdman wrote:
But we must use thoughts to get rid of thoughts.
Ha, we don't need to get rid of thoughts. Over time they will be like traffic noise. It is there, but when attention doesn't happen, they are so far in the background that they are not remembered. They don't touch consciousness. (unless they are saying that they are useful)

Amen to that! I notice that the feeling of quiet in the mind, "no me" is addictive.

Birdman wrote:
To much obsessing with semantics like "what is knowing", "is there knowing"? See, there I go again!!!
Yes, our cult(ure) has conditioned us to be habituated to a constant thought stream. i suspect that in times gone by, we humans thought that our minds were what differentiated us from the animals. We actually worshiped the mind.

That sounds interesting - please more about " We actually worshiped the mind."

Birdman wrote:
Some cleaning must happen.
Yes, the light of awareness disperses the delusions.

Now you're using the concept "awareness". Even in a poetic, mystical(?) way, "light of awareness"! Don't know what it means... How should it be interpreted? I know we have touched on that before. Not groked sorry.

Birdman wrote:
but I tend to get lost in thought.
That is NOT a problem. It is an opportunity to develop the trigger to recognize what is happening. (the light)

Good! Yes, as soon as it it noticed, looking and awareness(?) happens.

Birdman wrote:
Don't know how proceeding will happen.
Neither do i. WonderFull, isn't it ?

Beautiful and WonderFull in a way. But also frustrating that there's nothing that can be done.

Birdman wrote:
Is it the same principle when examining an abstract or more complicated object?
Perhaps the opposite. When examining an object we are more likely to pick out details and label and categorize. On the other hand to experience a direct, non verbal, taste of the object would certainly add to the examination.

Sorry, didn't get that at all ;)

Birdman wrote:
But can imagine that there's a time for thoughts of doubt and/or questioning.
Yes, they could fit cat 1 on occasions.

Hmm, what was assumed here.

Birdman wrote:
It seems all very real, the material world.
Yes, and in the dream it seems very real too. It's only when we wake up that it seems less than real.

Yes, can't argue that. But a mouthful to chew.

Birdman wrote:
It's experiencing! Most of the time.
Yes, ok, so it's not the material world itself that seems very real, but the experience of it. ..and that is inside the organism with the label of Birdman. Do you grok this (did you look up grok ?)

Yes, seems so! Does the "material world" at all exist other than by experiencing from "inside"? Groked on some level.
Sure, had to look up "grok" - "understand something intuitively or by empathy. It's in Wagners last opera Parsifal: "Durch Mitleid Wissend", To know through compassion. Yet another way of "knowing" ;)

Birdman wrote:
This question could easily lead very far philosophically.
Yes it could, and one day we might do that for entertainment, but for the moment we need to look to experience or experiencing for the answer.
When you do this, do you find anything more than beliefs ?

Well, no... maybe interspersed with a couple of labels and stories.

Birdman wrote:
The pressure is not put by myself,
Oh ?

No, as I experience it, it's all very primitive, conditioning for millennia. It happens. Whether athletic, performing on any other physical or mental challenging task. It is not "put" at all, it is happening and it should, to enhance the odds for a possibly good outcome of the task - "hunt". I'm not talking out of control hysteria or anxiety fear but a sharpening of senses, a readiness in the body. If you're seasoned and used to it, there is control.

Birdman wrote:
You can't "choose" to not have it - it happens,
True, there is no Self to choose. Choice is really born of the alignment of conditions

Yes definitely. If no self - no choice. Logical. "Alignment of conditions", sounds very passive but I guess although sounding passive, what might unfold can probably appear very powerful.

How are you with public speaking ?

As long it's my bag, just fine! There is a sense of self-confidence built up by experience through decades of work.

Just after i woke up, realizing that self was a story, i had to speak to a room full of strangers. i looked at the chapter that described Vince as very uncomfortable with this and replaced it with a Vince that was unselfconscious. It was animated and natural. i even cried in front of them without the slightest hint of apology. Did i choose or did it just happen ? If the idea hadn't happened, then the conditions for it to occur wouldn't have been present.

Definitely not dream scenario here. But glad it worked fine for the unselfconscious Vince. When first asked to give a speech there might have been an apparent choice to accept or not? But once the bottle is uncorked I can imagine a sensation of flow. If I were in your shoes I'd probably have that daunting feeling because I have not had that profound awakening experience as you so not confident to talk about it. Could write maybe when/if that happens. Who knows, even talk too?


Always looking forward to reading your posts!
Cheers
Birdman