Need help seeing the truth.

[Freddi]

Right, Heketi, thanks for letting me know.
Bye for now
Fred

[Heketi]

Hi Fred,

I take back what I said. I became restless and felt the need to come back and post this.

I invite you to go and take a walk into nature, then sit somewhere quiet. Take a notebook with you and write down all that is perceived without discrimination, without selection. Just what is alive, right now. 
Maybe a sound? Maybe a chill in the air? Maybe something flying by? Anything that is seen/heard/touched/felt etc through the senses. 

For this, I chose to take my bike and just ride it to the creek by the trail. I stopped and sat on some rocks that were in front of the river/creek.

What is seen here:

• * The flow of the water and the inner stillness within it. The flow refers not only to the motion of the water, but also the life within it (fish).
  * The sound of the water as it flows downstream and hits against rocks on its path.
  * The sound of motor vehicles as they pass through the bridge above.
  * The sound of cyclists and runners as they pass by.
  * The sound and visual experience of birds, which kind I do not know.
  * The sound of the wind and the sensation of it as it passes through the body.

Thanks!

[Freddi]

1. Can a separate 'I', 'me' be experienced, in this happening?
I am still having a difficult time answering this in all honesty. The 1st thoughts that come to mind are "a separate 'I' from the one already perceived? No." But I know that this is not what is being asked here. There's still the feeling that there is someone watching this.

What is this 'I' that is already perceived? Can you describe it? Does it have a colour, a shape, a size?

Zoom into this feeling that there is someone watching this. Describe it without referring to what you think. Just what you see. Is it a physical sensation?

Thanks

Fred

[Heketi]

What is this 'I' that is already perceived? Can you describe it? Does it have a colour, a shape, a size?

There is no color, shape or size to it. It's a feeling of being, a feeling of being aware of the movements of the body and what it is doing (such as breathing). A feeling of being on the receiving/perceiving end of all of the senses. This too however, is something that is recalled/remembered.

Zoom into this feeling that there is someone watching this. Describe it without referring to what you think. Just what you see. Is it a physical sensation?

When I zoom in on this feeling, there are various sensations that surface. Most of these are around the head area. There's a strong tingling sensation between the eyes, right around the nose and forehead area. There is also a feeling of "pressure" in the eyes. When I look at an object while zooming in on the feeling of a "watcher," all of the aforementioned sensations are strongly felt. When I close the eyes, the sensations get a bit stronger; specially the feeling in the forehead area.



Thanks.

[Freddi]

Hi Heketi,
How does this ...

It's a feeling of being, a feeling of being aware of the movements of the body and what it is doing (such as breathing). A feeling of being on the receiving/perceiving end of all of the senses.

... get interpreted as a separate 'I'? Where does it get labelled?
Could it be that THIS sense of aliveness, the buzz of this moment, felt right here and now, has been misidentified as a separate 'I'?

And thank you for the description of the sensation that there is a watcher. Again, do these various physical manifestations amount to an actual 'watcher'? Or does this one too have to be assumed, without any proof of existence whatsoever?

Thank you!

Fred

[Heketi]

Hi Fred,

Sorry for the delay, but I am still working this.

How does this .... get interpreted as a separate 'I'? Where does it get labelled?

This is the part that I am struggling with and can't come up with an answer.

Could it be that THIS sense of aliveness, the buzz of this moment, felt right here and now, has been misidentified as a separate 'I'?

Yes, this is a strong possibility. I can see that the seeing, thinking, doing, hearing is just happening. But what I cannot seem to see is where, "seeing" gets flipped to "I am" + "seeing" if that makes any sense.

Again, do these various physical manifestations amount to an actual 'watcher'? Or does this one too have to be assumed, without any proof of existence whatsoever?

I can't seem to find any evidence of an actual "watcher." All that I can find is just deeply rooted ideas that were accepted without looking into it.


Thanks.

[Freddi]

Hi Heketi

I can see that the seeing, thinking, doing, hearing is just happening. But what I cannot seem to see is where, "seeing" gets flipped to "I am" + "seeing" if that makes any sense.

Don't aim to see or find, just LOOK, without any effort. Step out of the mind stream, come back to the breathing, simply acknowledge the vibrant happening of NOW.
Notice the seeing, the hearing, the touching, the sensing. Where do you see this 'I' that is doing all this? Anywhere? Take a good look. Is it anywhere to be found, apart from this mental commentary that attributes all doing to this 'I'? Can they, do they all take place without a separate 'doer'?

You said "All that I can find is just deeply rooted ideas that were accepted without looking into it". Question these deeply rooted ideas. Is there any truth in them?

Thanks!

Fred

[Heketi]

Hi Fred,

I am still looking. I will follow up again in a few hours.


Thanks!

[Heketi]

Don't aim to see or find, just LOOK, without any effort. Step out of the mind stream, come back to the breathing, simply acknowledge the vibrant happening of NOW.

Really having a difficult time with this one. "Looking without any effort," perhaps the simplicity of it is what is making it hard.

Notice the seeing, the hearing, the touching, the sensing. Where do you see this 'I' that is doing all this? Anywhere? Take a good look. Is it anywhere to be found, apart from this mental commentary that attributes all doing to this 'I'? Can they, do they all take place without a separate 'doer'?

Well, this much can be seen. All the senses, the sensing -- it is happening without an "I" doing them.

You said "All that I can find is just deeply rooted ideas that were accepted without looking into it". Question these deeply rooted ideas. Is there any truth in them?

There isn't any truth behind them, just assumptions that were made and accepted. The thing is, the idea that there is someone looking behind the eyes, observing all the things, has been with me for a long time now. So long, that even when I firmly believe otherwise, it seems that the belief is perhaps still there.


Thanks.

[Freddi]

Hi Heketi,

"Looking without any effort," perhaps the simplicity of it is what is making it hard.

Yes it is sooo simple that the mind overlooks it. It is as simple as seeing the difference between what is, and what is not happening.

There isn't any truth behind them, just assumptions that were made and accepted. The thing is, the idea that there is someone looking behind the eyes, observing all the things, has been with me for a long time now. So long, that even when I firmly believe otherwise, it seems that the belief is perhaps still there.

Is this investigation really about replacing a belief with another one? Scan your actual experience and check if it's true, if it isn"t, there's no need for any belief. But maybe you still expect to SEE something special, something different?
LOOK, you say "the idea that there is someone looking behind the eyes has been with me for a long time", question this. Is this assumption verifiable, tangible, here and now? Take a good look around. Where do you see 'a long time'? Where do you see this 'me'?
Is this any more than a thought that presents itself now (in what is happening), with a content inviting us into what is not happening?

Fred

[Heketi]

Is this investigation really about replacing a belief with another one?

No, it is about seeing what is there and what isn't. The belief that there is a watcher is what is being tested.

Scan your actual experience and check if it's true, if it isn't, there's no need for any belief. But maybe you still expect to SEE something special, something different?

Perhaps not something special, and perhaps not something different. But a sense of knowing, without a doubt, that is true and what isn't.

LOOK, you say "the idea that there is someone looking behind the eyes has been with me for a long time", question this. Is this assumption verifiable, tangible, here and now?

Verifiable? That's why this exploration is taking place; to verify if that is true or not. I can go to the bathroom, grab a mirror and place myself in between two of them just to look and see that there is nothing behind me. Because there is nothing there, there is nothing to touch and as such, it is not tangible here, now or ever.

Take a good look around. Where do you see 'a long time'? Where do you see this 'me'?

A "long time" is seeing in the past or rather, the thought of the recollection of it. From the beginning of the 1st thought that there was identification with? The "me" is never seen, only "thought of" or "assumed to be" or better yet, "assumed awareness." The thought of a movie that one is so identified with that one looses sense of reality, sense of time; this is what comes to mind.

Is this any more than a thought that presents itself now (in what is happening), with a content inviting us into what is not happening?

I am not sure I am understanding this question, 'what is not happening.' Is there another way to phrase this?


Thank you.

[Freddi]

Hi Heketi,

Verifiable? That's why this exploration is taking place; to verify if that is true or not. I can go to the bathroom, grab a mirror and place myself in between two of them just to look and see that there is nothing behind me. Because there is nothing there, there is nothing to touch and as such, it is not tangible here, now or ever.

Exactly, so let's question that thought '"the idea that there is someone looking behind the eyes has been with me for a long time", let's question everything.
Here and now, do you see a 'me' that this idea can be with?
Here and now, can you experience 'a long time'? You say "A "long time" is seeing in the past or rather, the thought of the recollection of it". Can there be seeing in the past? Or is the thought/recollection also NOW?
Here and now, do you see an idea (that there is someone looking)?

Fred: Is this any more than a thought that presents itself now (in what is happening), with a content inviting us into what is not happening?
Heketi: I am not sure I am understanding this question, 'what is not happening.' Is there another way to phrase this?

Sure :-) Bring back a memory of your childhood. Maybe a walk in the park, maybe a day out, anything. Make sure you remember as many elements as possible. You may be able to conjure up some smells, some sights and sounds.
Now, is this memory/thought/recollection WHAT IS or WHAT IS NOT experienced right now?
Is the childhood scene taking place now?
The thought/memory is perceived now, but is the content of it what is actually happening now?

Now, take another look at that thought "the idea that there is someone looking behind the eyes has been with me for a long time". Is it different, is it the same? Is the content of it actually happening now? LOOK!

Thanks

Fred

[Heketi]

Hi Fred,

Here and now, do you see a 'me' that this idea can be with?

No. There is no "me" anywhere that this idea can be with.

Here and now, can you experience 'a long time'?

A "long time" can only be experience in thought and even then, it is just the idea/thought of it -- not the full experience. The full experience can only be experienced in the present moment.

Can there be seeing in the past? Or is the thought/recollection also NOW? 

The present moment can only be seen in the present moment. Anything after or before that, is just a thought/recollection and nothing more.

Here and now, do you see an idea (that there is someone looking)?

Every time this question comes up, or any form of it, the same thing happens. Everything stops for a second, the mind chatter seems to subside more so than the usual. No thoughts come up, but the subtle urge to procrastinate on the answer. I follow this with a question, "Is it true?" which I then answer myself, "No. There is nobody watching." Or "Yes, there has never been any one watching." I look for an idea or thought that there is someone looking, but no answer surfaces. Is silence the answer itself? Or perhaps this is so deeply rooted that it has become sort of like a "reflex?"

Bring back a memory of your childhood. Maybe a walk in the park, maybe a day out, anything. Make sure you remember as many elements as possible. You may be able to conjure up some smells, some sights and sounds.

The most solid memory that comes up was that of when I was perhaps, 8 years old. I was with some family members swimming in a beach and went below the surface. As I was coming up to catch some air, I was hit with a Jet ski on the head. I recall being underwater after that grasping for air, the taste of the salty water and the emptiness around me. The next thing that I recall after that, is being yanked out of the water and carried to the sand.

Now, is this memory/thought/recollection WHAT IS or WHAT IS NOT experienced right now? 
Is the childhood scene taking place now?

Memories are a recollection and thought, of what is NOT experienced right now. Even if they were to be recorded on video and replayed today, in this moment, they would still be not what is experienced right now. In the same way, a picture of someone, is just a picture of someone; it does not represent the real content, just an idea of it.

Now, take another look at that thought "the idea that there is someone looking behind the eyes has been with me for a long time". Is it different, is it the same? Is the content of it actually happening now? LOOK!

Is the content of the thought of "someone has been looking behind the eyes for a long time" happening now? I look and look, but no answer comes up; there is only silence.



Thanks.

[Freddi]

Thanks!

So, where IS this self, then, apart from in a thought that comes up in this moment?
Are 'you', is the self the origin of that thought?
Do you have any doubt that it has ever existed?

Fred

[Heketi]

Hi Fred,

So, where IS this self, then, apart from in a thought that comes up in this moment?

This "self" is nowhere to be seen or found.

Are 'you', is the self the origin of that thought?

Yes, this is how it feels.

Do you have any doubt that it has ever existed?

Do I have any doubt if the self ever existed? No, I don't. It has always been an assumed thought; a thought strongly identified with. How can this however, be seen more clearly? It feels like the answer given is still intellectual, but not as much as when we started.


Thanks.