Understanding but not really seeing

[Ilona]

Yes, it's mind blowing.

Choose another thought.

Did you know what thought it will be before it came?
Where did that thought come from?
Did it come from another thought?

Play with this, do you know what will happen before it happens?

[happening]

Yes, it's mind blowing.

Okay, sounds like maybe some progress. The only thing is I haven't reduced it yet to something 100% known because it was a bit of a complicated exercise, so going to work on that.

Choose another thought. Did you know what thought it will be before it came?

A thought (memory) of a pine tree I last saw 35 years ago randomly popped into my head. This is unexpected. I have no idea where that came from or how I even remembered that. A point is trying to prove itself here.

Where did that thought come from? Did it come from another thought?

It was immediately, very briefly preceded by a generic "tree" thought, which again I have no idea where it came from. There was nothing in my perception before it having to do with trees. I'll do this a few more times after lunch, but the conclusion right now is: thought come from nowhere that I can identify.

I'm not sure how you keep up with all of this, but you are awesome, thanks for your generosity.

[happening]

Sorry, my reply above missed your last question, and I don't see a way to go back and edit it. Your question: "do you know what will happen before it happens?" The answer is an easy "no", not unless preceded by some kind of indicator pointing to it.

[Ilona]

have a closer look, can you stop a thought form coming, can you stop thoughts for like half an hour?
are you the thinker of thoughts
or are thoughts coming up by themselves?
is i a thinker or a thought?
is there a thinker?

play with these questions :)

and, thanks man, for kind words.

sending love

[happening]

have a closer look, can you stop a thought form coming,

No, that's impossible. One thought cannot stop another. Even if you could, the thought would already have to be there to even know what thought to stop.

It does seem like a pattern of thoughts can be stopped though. Like if I begin to sense there are judgmental or unproductive thoughts, I can stop that pattern of thoughts as soon as there is awareness of them. That seems like one thought stopping a pattern of thoughts, even if it can't stop an individual one. I'm confused as to why one can seemingly stop a pattern, or if I've just looked at this the wrong way.

can you stop thoughts for like half an hour?

I think you might be kidding with me now. :) So I'll say Yes– with enough anesthesia, I'm sure we can stop thoughts for like half an hour. Other than that, or being Gary Weber, or being dead, then no, we cannot stop thoughts for half an hour, or any amount of time.

are you the thinker of thoughts

No, thought doesn't think. I still naturally presume that I am the thinker, but I've since learned that's incorrect, even if it hasn't fully sunk in. It will.

or are thoughts coming up by themselves?

They are coming up by themselves. They can also be influenced by external stimuli. For instance, you asking me to think about Santa. I thought I was doing that, but instead it was the brain doing it, and then slapping a "mine" tag on top of it. I only saw it after it had already done that, and just assumed it was mine.

is i a thinker or a thought?

A stinker, a sneaky thought.

is there a thinker?

I have a feeling I'm supposed to say "no" here. But my current understanding is that the brain is the thinker. The "thinker" in this case as being like a computer, and "thinking" being conditioned software of the brain. So I'm not implying free will by "thinker", just patterning. Or am I not quite right here?

[happening]

Ilona, continuing the exercises above as I said I would, I ran into a situation that caused quite a LOL moment. I'm sure it'll sound silly and stupid, but I can't believe I didn't notice it before. Maybe I shouldn't even mention it, but feel like I should in case I ever forget it because somehow I'd not noticed it before.

Watching where thoughts come from, I've tried to dictate which thought should come up next to see how that goes. So I instructed that we should think of a "cat with a hat." And sure enough, there it was. Tried it again with "mouse on a house", and there was that thought. Irrefutable proof that I can control thoughts!

But then something happened, where did "cat with a hat" come from anyway? Where did "mouse on a house" come from? I thought I was the one deciding what was going to be thought about, when in fact the those two came from absolutely nowhere like the rest of the thoughts. Cannot believe I missed this before. I'm sure this sounds silly to you, but I had overlooked this. I can only laugh.

[Ilona]

Good work.

my current understanding is that the brain is the thinker.

Ok, are you the brain? Are you in charge of the brain? Does the brain need your help to run the processes?

Good stuff noticing that even though it seems that you choose a thought to think, that thought comes from nowhere.

Let's examine language and how it is constructed. We have verbs and nouns. Subjects/objects doing action.
Language itself creates a doer.
There is an exercise in this post. http://markedeternal.blogspot.co.uk/2012/05/labels.html
Do it here or on paper and notice, how description affects what is happening. Or does it?

Is I word pointing to a doer or it's a label that is used as part of language?

Sending love

[happening]

Ok, are you the brain? Are you in charge of the brain? Does the brain need your help to run the processes?

No to all 3 questions above. It is clear I am not the brain. I am a thought. The brain seems to create thoughts, but that is not certain. Maybe it just tunes into them. Though I'm guessing that point probably doesn't matter.

Good stuff noticing that even though it seems that you choose a thought to think, that thought comes from nowhere.

It was a "cannot be unseen" moment. Feels like progress.

There is an exercise in this post. http://markedeternal.blogspot.co.uk/2012/05/labels.html

First off, let me just say that is a beautiful blog post. This was my second time reading it, and second time completing the exercise (I read and did the exercise a week or so ago as well).

Do it here or on paper and notice, how description affects what is happening. Or does it?

I did the exercise again this morning. Description does not seem to affect what is happening. Not that I was able to notice anyway.

I did not notice a difference between when I was using the labels and when I was not. The blog post says to look for tension, and I could not spot a difference. However, when I did it a week or so ago, I noticed a little more difference. I'm feeling less identified with "I" this week than last, maybe that's it. The content of the exercise is below. No point in reading it of course, but I included it here in case anything jumps out that I didn't do quite right.

I am typing.
I am looking at the computer screen.
I am hearing my cat lick her fur.
I am feeling my hands.
I am hearing the fan.
I am hearing birds chirp outside.
I am watching my cat now sprawl out across my desk.
I'm looking at my desk and realizing there's entirely too much stuff on it.
I'm looking at a note my daughter wrote to me, I love it.
I'm taking a sip of coffee.
I'm looking at the ceiling fans.
I'm looking at a box, realizing the item in it needs to be returned today.
I'm wondering what I will work on in my job today.
I'm looking at the computer mouse.
Now I am looking at the computer keyboard.
I'm wondering what else I can looking for.
I'm looking out the window and it's completely dark outside.
I'm looking around room grasping for something else to notice.
I'm noticing an itch on my neck. I itched it.
I'm sitting on an a big exercise ball, gently rolling around on it.
I'm noticing my feet touching the ground.
I'm hearing the fan is changing its pitch a bit.
I'm hearing more birds outside.
I'm feeling an itch on my ear, and going to ignore it to see if more pop up.
Yep, now I'm feeling an itch on the back of my head, ignoring it.
I'm noticing that when I sit and type here, I'm not sitting up as straight as I'd like.
I'm hearing an airplane outside.
I'm hearing the buzz of the refrigerator.
I'm noticing the "floaters" floating across my eyes with the background of the white computer screen.
I'm looking at the clock to see how any more minutes, 1 to go!
I noticed the refrigerator stopped buzzing, must have completed its cycle.
I can faintly hear the sound of cars moving outside.
I'm hearing a high pitch ringing sound, but then again I always hear that.

There is typing.
There is the sound of the fan.
There is an ear with an itch.
There are birds chirping.
Itches have been scratched.
There is seeing of eye floaters on the screen.
There is noticing of how bright the screen is.
There is darkness outside, but faint indication of sunrise.
There is more scratching of itches.
Birds are getting louder with their chirping.
There is wondering what the birds are saying.
There is faint hearing of cars outside.
There is the sensation of feet touching the floor.
There is the sensation of sitting on an exercise ball.
There is sipping of coffee.
The eyes have closed.
There is noticing of the arms, hands and fingers.
Some faint vibration is felt.
The caffeine of coffee is beginning to be felt.
There is looking around to see what to write about next.
There are keys on the desk.
There is a timesheet on the desk.
There are subtle itches on the face.
There is tension noticed in the lower back.
The body has adjusted to sit up straight.
There is hearing of more bird noises.
There is wondering what the day ahead holds.
There is looking at the clock, there is one minute left.
There is hearing of another bird that must have waken up.
There is more sitting up straight.
There is noticing of faint energy through the body, probably the coffee talking.
There is noticing that ten minutes have passed.

[Ilona]

Great!
When you say, 'I am feeling less identified with i'
What is the first I ?
What is that owns identity?
What is that identity stick to?


Keep on looking! Getting close

[happening]

When you say, 'I am feeling less identified with i'
What is the first I ?

I'm glad you asked, I hadn't looked at that closely enough. I wish it could be said that it was an "I" for communication. While there is "feeling of less identification", there is also "I feel less identification." Meaning, there is that feeling with a "my" label attached. That label is recognized as just a thought, but that thought is still trying to express ownership.

What is that owns identity?

Having some trouble with the term "identity", as I don't know exactly what it means in this context.

I'm drawing up a blank when I try to answer this. I don't know if that means "nothing owns" or if that just means I'm not clear enough on the term. I do recognize that a thought cannot own anything, even though there is feeling that it can.

What is that identity stick to?

We assume the "I" thought to be an identity. Yes, that identity is stuck to an "I" thought, it's here. I know this is a false assumption that must be seen through. I will keep looking as you suggested. So thankful for your help.

[Ilona]

The blank that you get, the silence is not an absence of answer, it is the answer.

What is there that identifies?
Ask this.
What is that is looking?

[happening]

What is there that identifies?

The I/me thought identifies. By that, I mean claiming ownership of thoughts. I might still be confused on the exact meaning of the identify term though.

What is that is looking?

This is a profound question. I sat down and spent a long time with this one. The first time I explored it, felt strong emotions come up. Seemed like something was beginning to clarify. (Or maybe it was just the potential of it, given the profound question). But the emotional surprise of it unfortunately halted the looking, scared me in that moment, had to back off it.

I tried again and this time got a blank, nothing. That seemed interesting (you mentioned blank can be an answer), but upon reflection didn't seem to suggest anything about no-self, so thought maybe I needed to continue looking.

Kept going with it, asking the question, but now every time I try it seems the "I" has entered into it, thinking it is there looking at itself. A thought looking at a thought, which obviously makes no sense given that a thought can't think, much less look.

Despite coming up with 3 unclear answers to your question (above), there's something here. Otherwise I don't know what the emotions could have been about. Thank you for your excellent questions, feeling yet more progress.

[Ilona]

Yes, you are doing great!

Let's take a different angle now.
Close eyes and sit for a bit. Can you tell if there is inside and out side of experience. Is there a gap between experienced and experiencer? Test with senses, is ear a hearer of the sound and sound or just sound? Is there a feeler of sensations behind the sensations?
Open eyes, is there a seer separate from the seen? Where is the line between inside and outside?

Explore and write :)

Much love

[happening]

Close eyes and sit for a bit. Can you tell if there is inside and out side of experience.

This was fun. Very interesting to see (hear) that there is just outside, there is no inside. I think it could also be said they are the same.

Is there a gap between experienced and experiencer?

Interestingly, no there was not! None that I could identify. There is an assumption of a gap, but unable to find it.

Test with senses, is ear a hearer of the sound and sound or just sound? Is there a feeler of sensations behind the sensations?

The only time I noticed the ear as the hearer is when the sound was on one side or the other. Otherwise, there was no hearer. There was hearing but oddly nothing else at all. Somehow the labeling stopped (maybe because the bird sounds are now so familiar). Hearing birds but was only hearing, not picturing birds or anything.

Also tried with feeling. First tried hands on the couch, then feet on the floor. Only identified pressure sensation, not specifically hands or feet. Eyes were closed for this so I could not see hands or feet.

Open eyes, is there a seer separate from the seen? Where is the line between inside and outside?

Like with hearing, there was no apparent line between inside and outside. It was all outside from my perspective (where there is no inside).

This one was harder to get at first, but managed to get even more interesting. While looking for the gap, the body disappeared. Of course it didn't really disappear, but perception of it sure did for a few moments. Wow. This will be even more fun outdoors. Thank you for this.

[Ilona]

Awesome!
Here is something for you for today. Work with this, watch how everything looks through this Lens. It's called Bahiya sutra

In the seen, there is only the seen,
in the heard, there is only the heard,
in the sensed, there is only the sensed,
in the cognized, there is only the cognized.
Thus you should see that
indeed there is no thing here;
this, Bahiya, is how you should train yourself.
Since, Bahiya, there is for you
in the seen, only the seen,
in the heard, only the heard,
in the sensed, only the sensed,
in the cognized, only the cognized,
and you see that there is no thing here,
you will therefore see that
indeed there is no thing there.
As you see that there is no thing there,
you will see that
you are therefore located neither in the world of this,
nor in the world of that,
nor in any place
between the two.
This alone is the end of suffering.


Write what you notice!

Sending love