Requesting a guide

[Brookside]

What brings you to Liberation Unleashed?:
In my deepest experience of peace there was no sense of a separate me. The experience arose from a letting go of fear, but it was of course transitory. Many years later, I came across Gateless Gatecrashers by chance and found it to be the closest "explanation" of that experience. I believe that seeing through the illusion of a separate self is vital to living a healthy and useful life.

What are you looking for? What do you expect from this?:
To realize through direct observation that there is no separate self. I don't expect the content or circumstances of my life to change. But I believe that the anxiety and stress brought about from false identification with a separate self will be lessened, and a natural process of healing will begin.

What is your background in terms of seeking and inquiry?:
I was introduced to Zen in high school in the late 1970s through Philip Kapleau Roshi's book, The Three Pillars of Zen. I then joined a local Zen group affiliated with the Rochester Zen Center, and later became a member of RZC. I attended several sesshin and training programs at RZC and studied with Toni Packer there. I also lived at the Chicago Zen Center for two years. During one of the sesshin, mind and body dropped away and great peace arose. I discontinued formal Zen practice after entering the workforce and moving to a different location. In the 1990s I found a nearby Thai temple and began attending vipassana retreats. In one of the retreats, led by Ajahn Khemananda, I was introduced to the method of Luangpor Teean called mahasati meditation, which I found very helpful and easy to integrate into daily life. I've also found Eckhart Tolle's work very practical, as well as some of A.H. Almaas'. My experience with inquiry has been limited to the method of Bassui, which involves questioning Who is seeing? Who is listening? etc. I have also engaged in koan practice, which could be viewed as a form of inquiry.

How ready are you to question your beliefs about who you are and see the truth no matter what? On a scale from one to ten (ten being most ready). : 10

[Nina45]

Hi Brookside,

My name is Nina and I am happy to be your guide.


You say you have observed directly that there is no separate self. Please say more as this is a great way to start our conversation. Please explain what "I" or "self" is from observation.

Look forward to the reply!

Very best wishes

Nina

[Brookside]

Hi Brookside,

My name is Nina and I am happy to be your guide.


You say you have observed directly that there is no separate self. Please say more as this is a great way to start our conversation. Please explain what "I" or "self" is from observation.

Look forward to the reply!

Very best wishes

Nina

Hi Nina,

Thank you for being my guide. The experience occurred during sesshin many years ago. During one of the sittings, one of the leaders gave a talk about letting go of fear, which he likened to embracing a large elephant. While he was talking, suddenly everything dropped away and there was no sense of anything (body, self, pain, other people, the room, etc). That apparently lasted a while. Then a sense of looking emerged and things gradually "recomposed." Afterwards I felt very light physically and mentally. So the observation is that there is nothing really to call "I" or "self." Actually there is nothing (or no thing) at all. But that was just an experience, and the realization is sort of "after the fact." And there's a sense of someone who had that experience, so the realization isn't functioning in the present.

John

[Nina45]

Hi Brookside,

Thanks for the reply. This inquiry is likely to be a very different experience to the one described. Please let go of any expectations that may be there that there will be another experience like the one in the past!!

The first step is to look at any expectations that could get in the way of seeing.

These 5 questions may help to pin point expectations. Have a look at them and write down anything that comes up. This may include thoughts, feelings, resistance ... whatever is there.

By going through the gateless gate:

1)How will Life change?

2)How will you change?

3)What will be different?

4)What is missing at the moment?

5)What would you like to achieve or obtain by this conversation?

Please respond to each of these 5 questions using the QUOTE FUNCTION to highlight the question being answered. Instructions are located in the link below :
http://liberationunleashed.com/nation/v ... ?f=4&t=660


Before I go, there are just a few formalities .....
If you haven't already seen it, there is introductory info here (disclaimer and a short video too).
http://www.liberationunleashed.com/

SOME GROUND RULES:-
1. Post at least once a day. If you cannot post, or need more time, please let me know.

2. Be 100% honest in your answers and inquiry.

3. ANSWER ONLY FROM ACTUAL EXPERIENCE (smell, taste, sound, sensation, colour and observed thoughts).

Read this article at http://liberationunleashed.com/articles ... xperience/ for more help on distinguishing what is actual/direct experience.)

Longwinded analytical and philosophical answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress.

4. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies, rituals, practices and so on for the remainder of this investigation. Really put all your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily and essential meditation practice, it is fine to continue that.

5. Understand that I will be guiding you (not teaching you) and the more you put into this process the more you will get out of it.

Let me know if any of the above 5 ground rules are a problem.


Looking forward to the responses!

Very best wishes,

Nina

[Brookside]

Hi Nina,

No problem with the ground rules. I hope you will challenge me when I seem to drift away from direct experience.

1)How will Life change?

Life will flow more naturally, without unnecessary interference.

2)How will you change?

I fear that I may lose control over my life situation, or lose motivation to take care of things such as my family.

3)What will be different?

There will be a sense of emptiness and peace, and much less worry and anxiety about the future, as long as I can get over that control thing :-)

4)What is missing at the moment?

There is a lack of clarity about the nature of reality.

5)What would you like to achieve or obtain by this conversation?

Clarity and peace from seeing the true nature of reality.

Best regards,
John

[Nina45]

Hi Johns,

These responses seem completely reasonable! However, this conversation will unfold like a game of ping pong. You hit me a ball and, in response, I will say something to make you look at the illusion of the ball, the table, the floor, the bat, the hand holding the bat, the wrist and the so called body attached to the wrist and hand. So, when you say something seemingly reasonable, I will question that view. At times you may experience "fear", "anger", "frustration" and "confusion". Let me know when this happens because it is key to SEEING!

Please read the following responses to your post and, most importantly, see what arises .....
Is there fear or resistance?
Disappointment, anger, or any other feeling?
Irritation?

1)How will Life change?

Life will flow more naturally, without unnecessary interference.

There has never been a "you" to interfere.
There has never been a life the belongs to "you".
There is just experience unfolding.

2)How will you change?

I fear that I may lose control over my life situation, or lose motivation to take care of things such as my family.

There has never been a you "in control".
It is very simple; there is no "I" and never has been.
There is no "I" to loose motivation.
There has never been any question of caring for the family; it needs to be done. This will not change (though the ways and means may change!)

3)What will be different?

There will be a sense of emptiness and peace, and much less worry and anxiety about the future, as long as I can get over that control thing :-)

There is no "you" to sense anything.
There is no "I" to control and no "I" to get over anything.
All there is and all there has ever been is sound, smell, taste, sensation and colour/image overlayed with thought.

4)What is missing at the moment?

There is a lack of clarity about the nature of reality.

This is the right place to be then! ;)

5)What would you like to achieve or obtain by this conversation?

Clarity and peace from seeing the true nature of reality.

It is all very simple.
There is no you and never have been.
All there has ever been is sound, smell, taste, sensation and colour/ image overlayed with thought.

Looking forward to the response!

Very best wishes

Nina

[Brookside]

Hi Nina,

There has never been a "you" to interfere.
There has never been a life the belongs to "you".
There is just experience unfolding.

I believe that but don't really see it, perhaps because there's nothing to see. My everyday experience seems like there is a story about me and I'm the protagonist: Experience unfolds and I endeavor to make sense of it by folding it into my story.

There has never been a you "in control".
It is very simple; there is no "I" and never has been.
There is no "I" to loose motivation.
There has never been any question of caring for the family; it needs to be done. This will not change (though the ways and means may change!)

That's actually a very comforting idea since trying to maintain control over the uncontrollable is quite exhausting. But I must admit that I don't really see it yet.

There is no "you" to sense anything.
There is no "I" to control and no "I" to get over anything.
All there is and all there has ever been is sound, smell, taste, sensation and colour/image overlayed with thought.

I'm curious about how that all works, and also a little confused. I keep trying to figure it out logically.

It is all very simple.
There is no you and never have been.
All there has ever been is sound, smell, taste, sensation and colour/ image overlayed with thought.

The feelings that arise are curiosity, confusion, fear of losing control, and doubt that I will "get" it.

Best regards,
John

[Nina45]

Hi John,

It is time to start Looking now!

LOOKing isn't difficult but sometimes is can take a little while to get the hang of. It is the same skill as looking for car keys or a lost document. We all start looking for lost things by thinking "where did I leave them"? When we have exhausted thought, we just look and realise thought and "memory" are not really helping! In this case too, thought and memory will not help! Go straight to looking.

LOOKing is looking at sound, colour/image, smell, taste, sensation and thought. It is looking at actual experience as it is actually happening now. Look at thought .... but don't start to have a conversation with it!

There has never been a "you" to interfere.
There has never been a life the belongs to "you".
There is just experience unfolding.

I believe that but don't really see it, perhaps because there's nothing to see. My everyday experience seems like there is a story about me and I'm the protagonist: Experience unfolds and I endeavor to make sense of it by folding it into my story.

Have a LOOK:
In actual experience (sound, colour/image/, taste, sensation, smell and thought), where is the story experienced? Is the story located somewhere?
Where is the "I" that is the protagonist experienced? Does it have a location?
Where is the "I" that can fold experience into a story exist? Does it have a location?

(Please answer all three questions separately using the quote function.)

There has never been a you "in control".
It is very simple; there is no "I" and never has been.
There is no "I" to loose motivation.
There has never been any question of caring for the family; it needs to be done. This will not change (though the ways and means may change!)

That's actually a very comforting idea since trying to maintain control over the uncontrollable is quite exhausting. But I must admit that I don't really see it yet.

It is exhausting!
There is no "I" to see. There is LOOKING and there is actual experience.

There is no "you" to sense anything.
There is no "I" to control and no "I" to get over anything.
All there is and all there has ever been is sound, smell, taste, sensation and colour/image overlayed with thought.

I'm curious about how that all works, and also a little confused. I keep trying to figure it out logically.

"Logic" is a way that thought creates the belief that there is someone in the drivers seat!
"I am thinking". But what is thinking?

It is all very simple.
There is no you and never have been.
All there has ever been is sound, smell, taste, sensation and colour/ image overlayed with thought.

The feelings that arise are curiosity, confusion, fear of losing control, and doubt that I will "get" it.

There is nothing to "get". It is very simple and it is there is be seen. It is like seeing an optical illusion!

Let's look at the "fear of loosing control".
Is there a sensation of "fear"?
Is there a location in the body where "fear" seems to be?
Are there thoughts about "fear"?

Good luck with looking John!

Best wishes

Nina

[Brookside]

Hi Nina,

In actual experience (sound, colour/image/, taste, sensation, smell and thought), where is the story experienced? Is the story located somewhere?

The story is experienced as thought. The thoughts are primarily verbal in nature, with occasional flashes of images. The story itself doesn't seem to be located anywhere. (There's a thought that the story is in or around the head, but that doesn't bear out through direct observation.) There's an inward sense of verbalization (inward story telling) that is experienced in the mouth and throat area, but that is sort of an editing or re-telling function and isn't the story itself.

Where is the "I" that is the protagonist experienced? Does it have a location?

The protagonist "I" is a thought and it does not have a particular location. It connects with other thoughts but doesn't abide anywhere in particular. There's a thought or assumption that "I" is in the head or body, but that isn't the I-thought itself.

Where is the "I" that can fold experience into a story exist? Does it have a location?

The editor "I" functions through inner speech and image, but it exists only through language. It isn't located anywhere in reality.

"Logic" is a way that thought creates the belief that there is someone in the drivers seat!
"I am thinking". But what is thinking?

Thinking is just a process. There seems to be a subject in charge of it, but in reality there is no one actually doing it!

Let's look at the "fear of loosing control".
Is there a sensation of "fear"?

There's a heightened sense of alertness in the upper chest, neck and head accompanied by a slight holding of breath, tightness in the chest, and widening of the eyes.

Is there a location in the body where "fear" seems to be?

Chest, neck and head. The origin seems to be the center of the chest.

Are there thoughts about "fear"?

Fear is an overreaction. Fear is a sign of weakness. Fear arises from a lack of clarity.

Best regards,
John

[Nina45]

Hi John,

In actual experience (sound, colour/image/, taste, sensation, smell and thought), where is the story experienced? Is the story located somewhere?

The story is experienced as thought. The thoughts are primarily verbal in nature, with occasional flashes of images. The story itself doesn't seem to be located anywhere. (There's a thought that the story is in or around the head, but that doesn't bear out through direct observation.) There's an inward sense of verbalization (inward story telling) that is experienced in the mouth and throat area, but that is sort of an editing or re-telling function and isn't the story itself.

Well this is very impressive looking John! Fantastic.

Where is the "I" that is the protagonist experienced? Does it have a location?

The protagonist "I" is a thought and it does not have a particular location. It connects with other thoughts but doesn't abide anywhere in particular. There's a thought or assumption that "I" is in the head or body, but that isn't the I-thought itself.

Is there just one "I" thought? Or is there a thought of "I" writing, "I" walking, "I" smiling, "I" eating? Is there an "I" thought of a moment ago and an "I" thought about the future?

Where is the "I" that can fold experience into a story exist? Does it have a location?

The editor "I" functions through inner speech and image, but it exists only through language. It isn't located anywhere in reality.

So there is also an "I" who appears is language?

What is controlling all these "I"s?
What is instructing the "I" in language?
What is thinking the "I" in thought?
What can be found?

"Logic" is a way that thought creates the belief that there is someone in the drivers seat!
"I am thinking". But what is thinking?

Thinking is just a process. There seems to be a subject in charge of it, but in reality there is no one actually doing it!

Great looking! :)
Here is an exercise to clarify:

Sit for about 30 minutes and notice the arising thoughts. Just let them appear as they appear and notice what the thought actually is - words, images, bits of music - whatever appears.

Try your best to COMPLETELY ignore what they are saying, and rather just notice how they appear, without you doing anything at all.

Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?
Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?
Where are they coming from?
Where are they going?
Can you predict your next thought?
Can you push away any thought?
Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?
Can you stop thinking a thought in the middle?
Can anything choose not to have painful or negative thoughts?
Can anything pick and choose any kind of thought?
Is it possible to control any thoughts?

It seems that thought has some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully and just notice if there is an organised sequence?
Or is that just another thought that says ‘these thoughts are in sequence’ or “they take content from previous thought”, or that ‘one thought follows another thought’?

Please look carefully when doing this exercise and answer all questions individually using the quote function.
There are a lot of questions but it is important to answer all of them!

Let's look at the "fear of loosing control".
Is there a sensation of "fear"?

There's a heightened sense of alertness in the upper chest, neck and head accompanied by a slight holding of breath, tightness in the chest, and widening of the eyes.

Point to the sensation in the upper chest.
Really look at the sensation.
Does the sensation know anything about alertness?
Does the thought "alertness" know anything about the sensation?

Is there a location in the body where "fear" seems to be?

Chest, neck and head. The origin seems to be the center of the chest.

Point to the area at the centre of the chest.
Really look at the sensation.
Does the sensation know anything about the thought label "fear"?
Does the thought label "fear" know anything about the sensation?
Does the sensation know that it is in the "chest"?

Are there thoughts about "fear"?

Fear is an overreaction. Fear is a sign of weakness. Fear arises from a lack of clarity.

These are just thoughts and they don't have to be believed!!

"Fear" is a thought label. It seems to attach itself to a sensation in the body which creates the "feeling" fear.
Is it possible to look at the sensation ......... and the thought label "fear" ......... and experience them separately?


This is a fantastic start John!

Good luck with looking at thought.

Very best wishes

Nina


Best regards,
John

[Nina45]

oops John! The quote function has got the better of me!!

[Brookside]

Hi Nina,

Very challenging assignment! May need to look some more at this.

Is there just one "I" thought? Or is there a thought of "I" writing, "I" walking, "I" smiling, "I" eating? Is there an "I" thought of a moment ago and an "I" thought about the future?

There isn't just one "I" thought. An "I" thought arises in conjunction with the labeling of activities or other thoughts. There's a belief or assumption that it's the same "I" each time, but it arises independently. The "I" thoughts that connect to present activities are part of a labeling process. The "I" thoughts of a moment ago or about the future are part of a storytelling process that attempts to make sense of things.

So there is also an "I" who appears is language?

Yes, as part of a labeling or storytelling process.

What is controlling all these "I"s?

Nothing that can be observed directly.

What is instructing the "I" in language?

Nothing.

What is thinking the "I" in thought?

Nothing.

What can be found?

Nothing.

Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?

No.

Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?

No.

Where are they coming from?

They just arise from nowhere.

Where are they going?

They just vanish into nowhere.

Can you predict your next thought?

No.

Can you push away any thought?

No.

Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?

No.

Can you stop thinking a thought in the middle?

A single thought is too quick to stop in the middle. It arises in a flash in its entirety.

Can anything choose not to have painful or negative thoughts?

No.

Can anything pick and choose any kind of thought?

No.

Is it possible to control any thoughts?

It isn't possible to control individual thoughts that arise, but it does seem possible to direct the "thinking process" around particular subjects.

It seems that thought has some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully and just notice if there is an organised sequence?

The thoughts that arise are entirely random, but there is a connecting process that builds off of thoughts and constructs larger ideas.

Or is that just another thought that says ‘these thoughts are in sequence’ or “they take content from previous thought”, or that ‘one thought follows another thought’?

Yes that's true, but there also seems to be a process that links related thoughts together, even before the thought arises that "these thoughts are in sequence" etc.

Point to the sensation in the upper chest.
Really look at the sensation.
Does the sensation know anything about alertness?
Does the thought "alertness" know anything about the sensation?

The sensation does not know anything at all. The thought "alertness" is a label attached to it, but it doesn't "know" the sensation itself.

Point to the area at the centre of the chest.
Really look at the sensation.
Does the sensation know anything about the thought label "fear"?
Does the thought label "fear" know anything about the sensation?
Does the sensation know that it is in the "chest"?

The sensation does not know anything about "fear". And "fear" doesn't know anything about the sensation. The sensation doesn't know that it is in the "chest".

"Fear" is a thought label. It seems to attach itself to a sensation in the body which creates the "feeling" fear.
Is it possible to look at the sensation ......... and the thought label "fear" ......... and experience them separately?

Yes. The sensation is one of tension. The thought label "fear" is entirely separate from it.

Best regards,
John

[Nina45]

Hi John,

Very challenging assignment! May need to look some more at this.

Keep Looking!! ;) It is the key.

There isn't just one "I" thought. An "I" thought arises in conjunction with the labeling of activities or other thoughts. There's a belief or assumption that it's the same "I" each time, but it arises independently. The "I" thoughts that connect to present activities are part of a labeling process. The "I" thoughts of a moment ago or about the future are part of a storytelling process that attempts to make sense of things.

Is there a "feeling" of an "I" or a separate self?
Does the sense of a separate self have a sensation?
If so, does the sensation have a location?

[

quote]So there is also an "I" who appears is language?

Yes, as part of a labeling or storytelling process.
[/quote]

Is there an "I" that exists beyond language? Or is it just a part of language?

Try dropping the "I" from activities.
"I am walking" to just "walking"
"eating", "driving", "smiling", "Lying on the bed", "talking"

Is the experience any different?

What is controlling all these "I"s?

Nothing that can be observed directly.

LOOK back carefully. LOOK back slowly and explore.
What is doing the observing?

What is instructing the "I" in language?

Nothing.

What is thinking the "I" in thought?

Nothing.

What can be found?

Nothing.

Great. A whole lot of nothing.

Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?

No.

Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?

No.

Where are they coming from?

They just arise from nowhere.

Where are they going?

They just vanish into nowhere.

Great. So it is clear that there is no navigator?

Can you predict your next thought?

No.

Can you push away any thought?

No.

Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?

No.

So it is clear there is no predictor or controller?

Can you stop thinking a thought in the middle?

A single thought is too quick to stop in the middle. It arises in a flash in its entirety.

Yes :)

Can anything choose not to have painful or negative thoughts?

No.

Can anything pick and choose any kind of thought?

No.

No filing system then?

Is it possible to control any thoughts?

It isn't possible to control individual thoughts that arise, but it does seem possible to direct the "thinking process" around particular subjects.

Is it possible to find a director?
Or is there a thought about being able to direct the thinking process?

It seems that thought has some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully and just notice if there is an organised sequence?

The thoughts that arise are entirely random, but there is a connecting process that builds off of thoughts and constructs larger ideas.

Is it possible to find a builder?
Or are there thoughts connecting one thought to another?
Are there connecting thoughts which link thoughts in a story?

Or is that just another thought that says ‘these thoughts are in sequence’ or “they take content from previous thought”, or that ‘one thought follows another thought’?

Yes that's true, but there also seems to be a process that links related thoughts together, even before the thought arises that "these thoughts are in sequence" etc.

Is it possible to find a processor?
Or is that just another thought?
"Even before thought arises" ..... is that a thought about thought arising?

Point to the sensation in the upper chest.
Really look at the sensation.
Does the sensation know anything about alertness?
Does the thought "alertness" know anything about the sensation?

The sensation does not know anything at all. The thought "alertness" is a label attached to it, but it doesn't "know" the sensation itself.

Is the label "attached" to the sensation? Or does it just seem to be attached?
Are the sensation and label linked by the storytelling process?

Point to the area at the centre of the chest.
Really look at the sensation.
Does the sensation know anything about the thought label "fear"?
Does the thought label "fear" know anything about the sensation?
Does the sensation know that it is in the "chest"?

The sensation does not know anything about "fear". And "fear" doesn't know anything about the sensation. The sensation doesn't know that it is in the "chest".

Great looking!

"Fear" is a thought label. It seems to attach itself to a sensation in the body which creates the "feeling" fear.
Is it possible to look at the sensation ......... and the thought label "fear" ......... and experience them separately?

Yes. The sensation is one of tension. The thought label "fear" is entirely separate from it.

Really great looking John.

Looking forward to the next response.

Very best

Nina

[Brookside]

Hi Nina,

Is there a "feeling" of an "I" or a separate self?
Does the sense of a separate self have a sensation?
If so, does the sensation have a location?

There is an impersonal felt presence that seems to be centered in this "body".

Is there an "I" that exists beyond language? Or is it just a part of language?

"I" is just a thought that is a part of language.

Try dropping the "I" from activities.
"I am walking" to just "walking"
"eating", "driving", "smiling", "Lying on the bed", "talking"

Is the experience any different?

The experience feels more "immediate" and "lighter".

What is controlling all these "I"s?
Nothing that can be observed directly.

LOOK back carefully. LOOK back slowly and explore.
What is doing the observing?

Nothing is doing the observing but there is a felt presence that accompanies it.

So it is clear that there is no navigator?

There is no navigator...this is just a belief.

So it is clear there is no predictor or controller?

There is no predictor or controller...these are just beliefs.

No filing system then?

It's as if there were a self-organizing system with no one in charge. (But "self-organizing system" is just an idea.)

Is it possible to find a director?
Or is there a thought about being able to direct the thinking process?

There is no director. It does seem possible to direct thought to a particular subject, and think logically about things. For example, in responding to these questions there's a process that seems to formulate relevant thoughts. But actually the thoughts arise by themselves and "languaging" constructs sentences from them. The "languaging" process is sort of like labelling thoughts, similar to the way thoughts label things. It does not direct the thoughts but sort of wraps around them.

Is it possible to find a builder?
Or are there thoughts connecting one thought to another?
Are there connecting thoughts which link thoughts in a story?

There is no builder. Thoughts arise and "languaging" articulates them into logical structures and stories.

Is it possible to find a processor?
Or is that just another thought?
"Even before thought arises" ..... is that a thought about thought arising?

There is no processor. It's just a thought. "Even before thought arises" is just a thought. "Arising" is a thought, too. It's just a label to describe the momentary appearance of a thought.

Is the label "attached" to the sensation? Or does it just seem to be attached?
Are the sensation and label linked by the storytelling process?

The label is not really attached to the sensation. It's just a response from the labeling mind that happens so quickly that it seems to be connected to the sensation. The storytelling process uses labels to describe and communicate sensations, but there isn't a direct connection.

Best regards,
John

[Nina45]

Hi John,

Today is busy so I'm unable to reply until later (4.00pm GMT).

Talk then!

Nina
Xx