Birdman

[vinceschubert]

Good evening Birdman,

The story mentioned was a judgement. An opinion. Would you agree ?
Not quite sure what you mean with the question...

To have a story that says it is good or not good. This is judging it. Comparing one thing with another, and believing that one is better than the other.

if thoughts can fight...

This is a good statement, that beckons wisdom. If you take a step back to a wider perspective, and let the sentence sit, what come up ?

I will try to turn it around as you suggest to realise when it is not happening but then happening.

Don't try anything. The idea of trying, and achieving. Of success and failure, are inevitable downers.
Try this;
Set the intention to turn things around,
Then laugh at the idea of a Self actually doing anything,
Then set the intention to notice if it happens or not,
laugh again.
Forget the whole thing.

The last days there has been experienced moments of serenity.

This is a good description. (beautiful)

Moments seemingly free from I.

This is something else.
i guess it could be a description, but more likely it is mind doing it's explaining thing.
Now sit up straight, and answer this;
If the I (Self) never existed, how can you be free of it ?
Describe from direct experience what was actually happening in those moments.

with no thoughts and concepts attached unlike the "me".

Please explain the details of this "attachment" ?

Some sort of chaos

How does this sit with "The last days there has been experienced moments of serenity. Moments seemingly free from I. Relief, smoothness and occasionally some smiling at the ridiculousness of minds talk." ?

Sometimes it feels so close but there is something that will not let go of "me".

Do this sentence again, but from DE.

Please talk to me about "sense of Aliveness" and "me"/"self".

Ok, let's start with you telling what you have realized about a Self in the recent past ?
When you say "sense of..", are you saying "feels like.."

love

vince

[Birdman]

Dear Vince!

To have a story that says it is good or not good. This is judging it. Comparing one thing with another, and believing that one is better than the other.

Thoughts judging thoughts ought to be an opinion, two different stories against one another, a judgement. Sometimes the nuances are lost in a foreign language. Sorry.

This is a good statement, that beckons wisdom. If you take a step back to a wider perspective, and let the sentence sit, what come up ?

Sounds perfectly ridiculous. Not only that, could develop into something deeply tragical. But in a sleepwalker the thoughts seem to be able to fight! Different opinions attacking each other. Judging, labelling happens, mind can become a battleground. In the end the poor mind gets sick of it and live out the frustration in violence, consuming harmful substances, or the seeking for enlightenment might happen.

Try this;
Set the intention to turn things around,
Then laugh at the idea of a Self actually doing anything,
Then set the intention to notice if it happens or not,
laugh again.
Forget the whole thing.

Again, these conditioned thoughts...
In short episodes there is this realising that nothing really can't be "done", nothing is done but that things seem to happen. But dishes are being washed up, dog taken for a bicycle walk, just two among all thousand of small things that make up this life. But something seem to decide to wash the dishes and so on...

This is something else.
i guess it could be a description, but more likely it is mind doing it's explaining thing.
Now sit up straight, and answer this;
If the I (Self) never existed, how can you be free of it ?
Describe from direct experience what was actually happening in those moments.

The "Self" never existed but the thoughts surely did. What I meant was periods seemingly free from thoughts about the self. Thoughts not thinking about thoughts! Worth a smile ;)

This is something else.
i guess it could be a description, but more likely it is mind doing it's explaining thing.
Now sit up straight, and answer this;
If the I (Self) never existed, how can you be free of it ?
Describe from direct experience what was actually happening in those moments.

Difficult! Sensations (not memories) from way back. Like I "remember" or recall (wordless) a "state of mind" that I thought was long forgotten, that I didn't realised I still remembered, a recognition! There is a "clear seeing", a feeling of immediacy and intimacy with what is all around, this-is-it sensation. Almost as the tree/the grass is without boundaries and becomes That which is observing/perceiving. Wonderfull!

Please explain the details of this "attachment" ?

I picture the "me" as a ball of sticky labels and thoughts attached to each other making up the me-thought. I was mentioning the primal "sense of Aliveness" as opposed to this imaginary ball of labels, the entangled "me" and wondering how to tell Aliveness apart from "me". Difficult to sense the limit of the Aliveness, where it ends and where Self/me starts.

Some sort of chaos
How does this sit with "The last days there has been experienced moments of serenity. Moments seemingly free from I. Relief, smoothness and occasionally some smiling at the ridiculousness of minds talk." ?

There are some strong swings in my perceiving the "What-is" now and some confusion, like I don't know who/what i am. The feeling of chaos mentioned was as answer to your wondering about my sensation of fear reactions in the body and what the fear might be protecting. I mean that the mind possibly on some level is afraid of a chaos once the old "I" falls away with a seeming, fragile order. I see that this "me" built up during the years may feel threatened which manifests in these bodily reactions. Mind's explanation maybe. Have not had any palpitation or constriction for several days. So these experiences that you quoted are real and here as blessed moments. Confusingly enough they exist in parallel now but not at the same time of course.

Sometimes it feels so close but there is something that will not let go of "me".
Do this sentence again, but from DE.

"Me" lingers like a guest who has stayed long after all others have left.
When I look, as usual there is no self/me there but as soon as ordinary things happens, then "me" is there commenting and lending a hand in running this life. Some weird hide and seek play. Confusion. Thoughts can not hold on, but who/what then holds on? I am being teased with.
To answer the question: "That" is always here but often obscured by layers of thought.

Please talk to me about "sense of Aliveness" and "me"/"self".
Ok, let's start with you telling what you have realized about a Self in the recent past ?
When you say "sense of..", are you saying "feels like.."

Self/me is here but more quiet, not often nagging or insisting. But more difficult to pin down. Teasing again. Self/me is more of a rather quiet sensation in the body.
Yes, "sense of Aliveness"="feeling of Aliveness". Nuances again...

Yesterday there were two occasions that upset me. First, someone criticised a close canine friend of causing allergy. First gut reaction was in the body as anger, hot cheeks, then thoughts of verbal defence/attack. I saw as a flash the thoughts and the fact that they were only that - thoughts, so in seconds all heat evaporated leaving no traces. Absolutely not likely to have happened only a couple of weeks ago!
Then a phone call about a slight injury of a close relative. Thoughts of self accusation because I was away, and shouldn't have been but instead being in place waiting for that to happen. Without going in depth it was seen that self accusing thoughts were the habitual response, and the thoughts were seen through and vanished.

All the best wishes
Birdman

[vinceschubert]

Good evening Birdman,

Thoughts judging thoughts ought to be an opinion,

Is opinion a judgement ?

or the seeking for enlightenment might happen.

Ha, yes. Who can tell what will turn out to be a necessary condition, for something to happen.

But something seem to decide to wash the dishes and so on...

Yes. So what ?
Look outside. The earth seems to be flat, and finish at the horizon.
Just as there is a (useful) SENSE of self. Does a SENSE of, make it so ?

and wondering how to tell Aliveness apart from "me". Difficult to sense the limit of the Aliveness, where it ends and where Self/me starts.

It seems like a legitimate quest, but like all quests, it take us into fantasy. Some mythical future. Is it seeking for the feeling that accompanies the "Aliveness" ?

In short episodes there is this realising

How many times can something be realized ?
From DE, what is actually happening ?

..becomes That which is observing/perceiving. Wonderfull!

Is there any attachment to this ?

a ball of sticky labels and thoughts attached to each other

Yes, but tell about this "attachment". How does attaching happen ? What is it ?

like I don't know who/what i am.

Of course you don't. You probably don't know IF you are, either. Can you ever know these things, or will they (at least for the moment) remain as part of the great mystery ?
Implicit in the statement is the desire to know these things. Is it imperative that every question be answered ?

I see that this "me" built up during the years

Does this "me" have any substance, or is it nothing more than a collection of descriptions that make up a story of you ? Answer from DE. What do you find when you investigate ?

Confusingly enough they exist in parallel now but not at the same time of course.

expand on this.

When I look, as usual there is no self/me there but as soon as ordinary things happens, then "me" is there commenting and lending a hand in running this life.

Good. Perhaps the commenting is a waste of energy, and the efficiency of the "me" running this life could be better. Perhaps we need to modify this story of a Self to be that way. What do you think ?

Thoughts can not hold on, but who/what then holds on? I am being teased with.

This has been responded to above. Without going back to reread it, what come to mind as your response to this now ?

To answer the question: "That" is always here but often obscured by layers of thought.

Aren't those layers of thought, also "That" ?

Self/me is more of a rather quiet sensation in the body.

i 'get' the sensation in the body, but what makes you say that this is Self/me ?
Is it that you become aware of this sensation when thinking of what a Self/me might be ?
Would you also label this "quiet sensation" as Aliveness ?

I saw as a flash the thoughts and the fact that they were only that - thoughts, so in seconds all heat evaporated leaving no traces.

Beautiful. This is new neuronal pathways being established. New conditioning. Soon you will be laughing at the idea that you once had that reaction.
Have you heard of the cosmic joke ?
What do you think that it might be ?

love

vince

[Birdman]

Dear Vince,

Is opinion a judgement ?

For me they are quite close. So I'd say yes to that. But an opinion might change, maybe not a judgement? Somewhat harsher.

Yes. So what ?
Look outside. The earth seems to be flat, and finish at the horizon.
Just as there is a (useful) SENSE of self. Does a SENSE of, make it so ?

No, apparently not! That's true when seen like that (horizon parable was great!) Big smile :)

It seems like a legitimate quest, but like all quests, it take us into fantasy. Some mythical future. Is it seeking for the feeling that accompanies the "Aliveness" ?

Yes, I think so. That feeling of aliveness seem so easy to find, just close eyes and feel the aliveness of the body. But maybe I mistake it for Self?
I wonder about the relationship between thoughts and feelings. Siblings? Thoughts in the mind - feelings in the body..?

How many times can something be realized ?
From DE, what is actually happening ?

Ha!! Just once! Per lifetime...
Yes, how things seem to be "done". Spontaneously, they happen. Dog taken for a walk happens, shopping food happens. But can't break free from the thought that a "me" seem to have something to do with it on some level. Before the shopping happens there is this thought that realises that grocery is missing and that seem to trigger an impulse to what happens. And to complicate it further, there also seems to be a choice, when, if and what to cook... Apparently deep asleep here :(

..becomes That which is observing/perceiving. Wonderfull!
Is there any attachment to this ?

I don´t think so, more like a rare gift of Being received in gratitude.

Of course you don't. You probably don't know IF you are, either. Can you ever know these things, or will they (at least for the moment) remain as part of the great mystery ?
Implicit in the statement is the desire to know these things. Is it imperative that every question be answered ?

"Knowing" things seem to bring "mind" a sense of security and orientation. The unknown is threatening by default to a sleepwalker. Categorising and labelling bring a superficial sense of safety. This universe is a mystery from Big Bang and on. "Why, wherefore, whence?" as Ior said. To answer your question, mind wants answers, stories, labels. But for this being answers are not imperative nor seem possible to have. Perfectly ok with mysteries as this bodymind is part of a great mystery.

When looking at thoughts, it becomes more and more obvious how powerful they seem but also how easy their spell can be broken just by watch them. Have seen it several times the last few days. Evaporation is the word to describe it.

Does this "me" have any substance, or is it nothing more than a collection of descriptions that make up a story of you ? Answer from DE. What do you find when you investigate ?

When I actually look, there is no "me", neither in head, nor body. I can see it is a mere collection of thoughts (a history, likes, dislikes, labels, strengths, weaknesses...). I can see, as in realise that! Next thing happens is doubt that it is only on the mind level? A belief. Not ingested, chewed and digested.

Confusingly enough they exist in parallel now but not at the same time of course.
expand on this.

As I said, confusion. All seem to exist almost at the same time. Moments of almost bliss, discouragement that this ever will be a reality for this being, evaporation of seen powerful thoughts, that I have got it all wrong, that my mind is too well armed to give away for Awakening, Reality, That or whatever It's label may turn out to be. Then confidence, "clear seeing". After peeling away all labels and thoughts, the sudden love experienced for an old battered wooden chair in the garden just standing there, all the time waiting to serve. Maybe the Want is to eager. Not enough relaxation. Will It be seen if It comes or will the mind try its best to cover it in thoughts?

Good. Perhaps the commenting is a waste of energy, and the efficiency of the "me" running this life could be better. Perhaps we need to modify this story of a Self to be that way. What do you think ?
Birdman wrote:

Absolutely! Total waste of energy! This "me" has definitely outlived itself. At 60+ and decades of seeking a deep longing for the real thing has arisen, a thirst that needs to be quenched.

This has been responded to above. Without going back to reread it, what come to mind as your response to this now ?

The self/me is the obvious answer, made of thoughts or not. There is apparent power in this self.

Aren't those layers of thought, also "That" ?

Hmm wow..! You made me somewhat quiet here...don't know what to say. Must digest, we have to come back to this.

i 'get' the sensation in the body, but what makes you say that this is Self/me ?
Is it that you become aware of this sensation when thinking of what a Self/me might be ?
Would you also label this "quiet sensation" as Aliveness ?

No, "Quiet Aliveness" comes first, then "little me" pointing out that this maybe is "me". Seeding doubt and confusion.
Yes, "quiet sensation" seem to be the "Aliveness". Just because it is quiet and stillness. But in the example of shopping happening the impulse to that happening seem to come from that same place. Risk for confusion here.

Have you heard of the cosmic joke ?
What do you think that it might be ?

Yes, have heard about it but can't recall it. Something like "It was here all along but to close to see", the worlds most overt secret...
Many people here now, difficult to get to the computer. Sorry delay, definitely not reflecting my dedication.

Best regards
Birdman

[vinceschubert]

Good evening Birdman,

For me they are quite close. So I'd say yes to that. But an opinion might change, maybe not a judgement? Somewhat harsher.

Hmm. i see what you mean. It is a slightly different perspective that i was alluding to. i need to be more specific with my questions. What is was pointing to was that both judgements and opinions have a moralistic overtone.
They are both always ABOUT something. Never the thing itself. Pure concept.

I wonder about the relationship between thoughts and feelings. Siblings? Thoughts in the mind - feelings in the body..?

Story here is that sensations happen because the sense organs are stimulated. Thoughts stimulate emotions. So is thought(mind) a sense organ ? Sounds like siblings to me.

But can't break free from the thought that a "me" seem to have something to do with it on some level.

Is this a happening, any different from dog walking or food shopping ?

Evaporation is the word to describe it.

Yes. Beautiful.

Next thing happens is doubt that it is only on the mind level?

Oh good, another happening.

Will It be seen if It comes or will the mind try its best to cover it in thoughts?

Hahahaha. This cracked me up. Hahaha. Thought popped in this head saying "Hahaha, you are doing a good job of this, in this very moment. "
You hit the nail, smack bang on the head. Without realizing what you were saying.
The only thing missing for you now, is the seeing of what exists NOW.
Fuck man ! You DO have it NOW. Just LOOK !
What is missing ?

At 60+ and decades of seeking a deep longing for the real thing has arisen

Oh, i know that feeling. i searched for 43 years, and spent the last of those agonizing years with the feeling that it was close.
Little did i realize that it was SO close, that i was looking past it, trying to find what i already had.

There is apparent power in this self.

explain please.

definitely not reflecting my dedication.

i have no doubt about your dedication.

love & friendship

vince

[Birdman]

Dear Vince!

What is was pointing to was that both judgements and opinions have a moralistic overtone.
They are both always ABOUT something. Never the thing itself. Pure concept.

Agree with the "moralistic overtone" and your explanation. So "about" is always conceptual and being "about" never the thing itself.
Yes, good idea to be specific, we don't see or hear each other and it's not my language ;)

Story here is that sensations happen because the sense organs are stimulated. Thoughts stimulate emotions. So is thought(mind) a sense organ ? Sounds like siblings to me.

Yes, see feelings (what is felt) as thoughts manifesting themselves in the physical part of the bodymind. So definitely not far fetched here to see "mind" as another pair of nostrils or eyes that pick up impressions from the world. Thoughts/feelings has always seemed very close. Maybe even twins!

Is this a happening, any different from dog walking or food shopping ?

Well, maybe not... It is what happens, so... Different in the way that it is not a physical happening like walking or shopping but an inner happening. Still happening though

Oh good, another happening.

Hmm..

Hahahaha. This cracked me up. Hahaha. Thought popped in this head saying "Hahaha, you are doing a good job of this, in this very moment. "
You hit the nail, smack bang on the head. Without realizing what you were saying.
The only thing missing for you now, is the seeing of what exists NOW.
Fuck man ! You DO have it NOW. Just LOOK !
What is missing ?

Oh dear! You're right, I didn't know/realise what I was saying. Still don't. Have your comment on the screen of the phone as a mantra.
"Smack bang on the head"!? "What is missing?" The realisation is for sure missing, trumpets, timpani ;) "NOW" and "LOOK" must be crucial pointers.
In a way, you could say that nothing NOW IS missing. Everything IS as it IS so how could anything be missing in ALL THAT IS. Alas, more of a logical deduction, not realised. Have to check what I wrote... No clues for me there. "Will it be seen if it comes?" Or mind cover it in thoughts. Have to chew on that

Oh, i know that feeling. i searched for 43 years, and spent the last of those agonizing years with the feeling that it was close.
Little did i realize that it was SO close, that i was looking past it, trying to find what i already had.

Yes, that's what they say... That IT is already there but too close, too familiar. Maybe like the daily tableware, always there, never seen...

There is apparent power in this self.
explain please.

Was almost a verbal sigh, just pointing out the apparent strength of my thoughts, how they sometimes seem to run on autopilot and have the power of an avalanche if not "seen". But HAVE seen that they are possible to tame. And that surprisingly easy!

definitely not reflecting my dedication.
i have no doubt about your dedication.

Good! Didn't think so...

love & friendship
Birdman

[Birdman]

Dear Vince!

Not much calm here since your last cryptical post. Chewing and tasting.
"What exists NOW" seem mostly to be sensory input. Like I am a radio receiver picking up what is on the band.
A note: when going to sleep last night there were unusually quiet. That is a time when mind usually is very active with chatter.
Hmm, don't know what to say more now. Maybe something for you to chew on?

Cheers from up-over
Birdman

[vinceschubert]

Good evening Birdman,

we don't see or hear each other and it's not my language ;)

We're doing ok, with the squiggles on the screen.

In a way, you could say that nothing NOW IS missing. Everything IS as it IS so how could anything be missing in ALL THAT IS.

Yes, it could be kept as a logical deduction. ...or it could be a logical deduction, so poignant that you go "YEAH !, THAT IS RIGHT"
..and on top of that you could go "That means that nothing needs to be DOne, except to SEE what already IS ! WoW !"
If you know, even from logical deduction, that nothing is missing, then why do you keep looking (into the future) for something ?

Not much calm here since your last cryptical post.

Great. Something was stirred. (perhaps threatened)
Keep chewing. It will either get swallowed or spat out.

Hmm, don't know what to say more now.

Just relax and enjoy the ride.
..after all, there is nothing you can DO anyway.
What will happen, will happen (or not)

love love

vince

[Birdman]

We're doing ok, with the squiggles on the screen.

Yes, that's the opinion here also!

Yes, it could be kept as a logical deduction. ...or it could be a logical deduction, so poignant that you go "YEAH !, THAT IS RIGHT"
..and on top of that you could go "That means that nothing needs to be DOne, except to SEE what already IS ! WoW !"
If you know, even from logical deduction, that nothing is missing, then why do you keep looking (into the future) for something ?

But a logical deduction is just a concept, however beautiful it may be. Just another belief added... No, it has to be incorporated (literally) in this bodymind to count. Has to felt intuitively, "seen", not grasped by the mind.
Apparently a dull brain here, a potentially good knife without a sharp edge. Deeply conditioned probably.
Good news: hardly any compulsory thinking today, like last night. Try to "see" thoughts and they tend to evaporate.
I don't really know what to expect. How is a "shift" in perception felt/seen? From testimonials there seems it can range between very subtle to quite dramatic almost events. Would you say that once seen there is a "knowing" that it happened? Is it possible to stumble on it without noticing? And continue the melancholic path of seeking? Sounds hardly likely though?
Good news 2: Something resonates clearly here with "...or it could be a logical deduction, so poignant that you go "YEAH !, THAT IS RIGHT" ..and on top of that you could go "That means that nothing needs to be DOne". Because since "That" is already here and complete as it is, nothing in form of "doing" could be added... Can probably realise that I think.
"If you know, even from logical deduction, that nothing is missing, then why do you keep looking (into the future) for something ?"
Tough one! Spontaneous response: lack of trust (on this side) that what is seen is it! Must be mistaken. Without "supporting evidence" like a "felt" shift this bodymind has difficulties to trust itself.

Great. Something was stirred. (perhaps threatened)
Keep chewing. It will either get swallowed or spat out.

No, it must not be spat out! A sense of freedom and emptiness, that even can be trusted here. Maybe contradicting what was written above but that's how it is now. Something is more quiet.

Just relax and enjoy the ride.
..after all, there is nothing you can DO anyway.
What will happen, will happen (or not)

Yes there is a sense of enjoyment even in this mental roller coaster but trying not to think of what might not happen. Futile, yes of course. Don't want to wait to next lifetime.

On the road tomorrow, FYI

Best greetings
Birdman

[Birdman]

Dear Vince!

Something definitely is going on here. Smoothness, quiet mind, everything seem to be more at ease. No revolution but def something felt. A little like an empty shell. A sensation of not- doing. I have never been a big talker and now it seems that there is even less to say. I don't know if this is an awakening of some sort. Something is happening, whatever the label is.
I thought about my question in the post above, how to recognise It, if/when It comes, if one can stumble on it and still continue seeking. I suppose the answer is "no". You told in an earlier post above that you were so close for many years that you could feel its scent. And still baffled over the utter closeness of It when it was realised! So you must have had the same questions as here. How come the degree of intenseness is so varying? Are there any stories about that, like the more asleep you are, the more dramatic awakening? Would guess that there are not any "laws" on that.

Best regards
Birdman

[vinceschubert]

Good evening Birdman, i was working through those that i'm guiding when your 2nd post came in.

Something definitely is going on here.

Ok, good. We don't need to explain the something. (not that it can be) That something is significant. You might call it a 'shift', for want of a better description.
A story is that it is the ever present peace that is now exposed as the chaos of 'normal' life quietens. How does this sit with you ?

You told in an earlier post above that you were so close for many years that you could feel its scent.

i had the feeling that i was close. Yes, for about a year. ..and yes when it happened, was struck with the question "how come I didn't see this 40 years ago? It is so obvious now." (the cosmic joke)

How come the degree of intenseness is so varying?

..as varying as the uniqueness of each human being.

like the more asleep you are, the more dramatic awakening? Would guess that there are not any "laws" on that.

Ha, definitely not. There are some things that are often present (almost common) when awakening happens, but there are always exceptions.

it has to be incorporated (literally) in this bodymind to count. Has to felt intuitively, "seen", not grasped by the mind.

Agreed. Usually that happens when an epiphany occurs. (that WOW! i mentioned) ..but in your case it may be the quietness that heralds the integration. You will know.

Apparently a dull brain here, a potentially good knife without a sharp edge.

A disturbed feeling happened when i read this.

Is it possible to stumble on it without noticing? And continue the melancholic path of seeking? Sounds hardly likely though?

i have worked with a few people that have (in my opinion) SEEN, but didn't recognize that they had.

Tough one! Spontaneous response: lack of trust (on this side) that what is seen is it! Must be mistaken. Without "supporting evidence" like a "felt" shift this bodymind has difficulties to trust itself.

Is there a comparison with expectations happening ?

This is a great adventure. Nothing to be done. Relax and enjoy it.

love & friendship & happiness

vince

[Birdman]

Dear Vince!

What happens now? I sincerely hope that we can continue this. I don't feel "ripe"' "cooked" or whatever yet.
Is there a Happening that could occur that would tenderly see to this fragile seedling of possible awakening? I think I can forebode your answer ;). How will proceeding happen here? Of course proceeding is fantasy/story and not real.
Since there appear to be no "I", there can be no choice or doing. What seems to be chosen or done just happens in "all there is" as a effect of coinciding happenings/events, an endless chain of cause and effect? What about the story of responsibility? The same? Responsibility seem to happen/appear in "This".
Hope (OK, no hope) that these difficult questions will eventually evaporate and something like an answer will happen.

Amusing when old thoughts come to visit but there is nobody there to react :)

Hope you don't find my questions too ridiculous.

Will be back with reactions on your post.

Hugs
Birdman

[vinceschubert]

Good evening Birdman,

What happens now? I sincerely hope that we can continue this. I don't feel "ripe"' "cooked" or whatever yet.

Hmm, it hadn't occurred to me that we were done. Lots to explore yet.

Is there a Happening that could occur that would tenderly see to this fragile seedling of possible awakening?

Certainly there is. (or not) i have no idea of what we will discover.
It seems pretty clear to me that you are simmering nicely. i guess we will have to cut you open to see if you are still raw in the middle.

How will proceeding happen here? Of course proceeding is fantasy/story and not real.

True, but it is a useful concept for discussing this.
But in the 'real' world, it is pointless to consider next when we are so busy with now.

What seems to be chosen or done just happens in "all there is" as a effect of coinciding happenings/events, an endless chain of cause and effect?

Is this something that you see actually happening for you ?

What about the story of responsibility?

You said it. Responsibility is a story. So what about it. Is it of value to discuss it ?
It is a useful concept from the perspective of our cult(ure). It is part of consensus reality, but from a 'personal' perspective, it think it is more productive to talk of consequences.

Hope (OK, no hope) that these difficult questions will eventually evaporate and something like an answer will happen.

Answers are overrated. They serve only to satisfy the mind. While a mind torn in the search for answers can be quite destructive to peace and wellbeing, answers are a (very) short term fix. No sooner is an answer found, but another question appears. It is the nature of thought (mind).

Hope you don't find my questions too ridiculous.

That's not possible.

Will be back with reactions on your post.

Looking forward to them.

Yes, hugs and warm regards.

love

vince

[Birdman]

Dear Vince!
Below is answers and comments from two posts. Hope not to confused by my editing...

Birdman wrote:
Something definitely is going on here.
Ok, good. We don't need to explain the something. (not that it can be) That something is significant. You might call it a 'shift', for want of a better description.
A story is that it is the ever present peace that is now exposed as the chaos of 'normal' life quietens. How does this sit with you ?

Yes, it feels significant. The story you mention is exactly how I would describe it. Although today, one day after it has not been felt so clearly.

Agreed. Usually that happens when an epiphany occurs. (that WOW! i mentioned) ..but in your case it may be the quietness that heralds the integration. You will know.

Yes, no epiphany, more a gentle feeling of liberating quietude. Smooth, quiet and peaceful.

Birdman wrote:
Apparently a dull brain here, a potentially good knife without a sharp edge.
A disturbed feeling happened when i read this.

Annoyance/irritation happen here when important connection is not picked up/understood. Irritation usually inward.

Birdman wrote:
Is it possible to stumble on it without noticing? And continue the melancholic path of seeking? Sounds hardly likely though?

i have worked with a few people that have (in my opinion) SEEN, but didn't recognize that they had.

With the limited experience here I can now understand that.

Birdman wrote:
Tough one! Spontaneous response: lack of trust (on this side) that what is seen is it! Must be mistaken. Without "supporting evidence" like a "felt" shift this bodymind has difficulties to trust itself.
Is there a comparison with expectations happening ?

Maybe, probably but can't say that expectations are in the foreground.

This is a great adventure. Nothing to be done. Relax and enjoy it.

I do! But it would be nice to go to bed knowing it was here when I wake up in the morning. "That" seem so illusive, vulnerable and shy. Here one day, gone the other.
-----

Birdman wrote:
What happens now? I sincerely hope that we can continue this. I don't feel "ripe"' "cooked" or whatever yet.
Hmm, it hadn't occurred to me that we were done. Lots to explore yet.

Don't know what thoughts came up. YES lots to explore! Exactly my feeling. Hence the fear to be left with it alone.

Birdman wrote:
Is there a Happening that could occur that would tenderly see to this fragile seedling of possible awakening?
Certainly there is. (or not) i have no idea of what we will discover.
It seems pretty clear to me that you are simmering nicely. i guess we will have to cut you open to see if you are still raw in the middle.

Ok good about the simmering!(Used to saunas here;) Have to learn trusting. Probably an unexplored belief in mind.

How will proceeding happen here? Of course proceeding is fantasy/story and not real.
True, but it is a useful concept for discussing this.
But in the 'real' world, it is pointless to consider next when we are so busy with now.

Sounds like a very good idea!

Birdman wrote:
What seems to be chosen or done just happens in "all there is" as a effect of coinciding happenings/events, an endless chain of cause and effect?
Is this something that you see actually happening for you ?

No, more a logical consequence of the "I" disappearing/drying out. And the question mark, the sign of uncertainty.

What about the story of responsibility?
You said it. Responsibility is a story. So what about it. Is it of value to discuss it ?
It is a useful concept from the perspective of our cult(ure). It is part of consensus reality, but from a 'personal' perspective, it think it is more productive to talk of consequences.

Ok, had a fit of distrust in the All. How that even is possible..?

Birdman wrote:
Hope (OK, no hope) that these difficult questions will eventually evaporate and something like an answer will happen.
Answers are overrated. They serve only to satisfy the mind. While a mind torn in the search for answers can be quite destructive to peace and wellbeing, answers are a (very) short term fix. No sooner is an answer found, but another question appears. It is the nature of thought (mind).

Yes, I know. A gut reaction, conditioned thinking. I agree completely, an answer often only leads to more questions. Nothing that satisfies in the long run. Junk food.

Birdman wrote:
Hope you don't find my questions too ridiculous.
That's not possible.

Glad to hear that. This process brings up some childishness and child like thinking I've noticed. Only that which is spontaneous and direct experience feels important. Maybe childish, spontaneous, direct...
What worries the most today is the happening of a seeming come back of the "me", feebler but here. Back and forth... The smoothness just a memory in the mind. Feelings of sadness arise. Maybe too attached to freedom.

Kindest regards and hugs
Birdman

[vinceschubert]

Good evening Birdman,

Although today, one day after it has not been felt so clearly.

Is there an emotional reaction to this ?

Annoyance/irritation happen here when important connection is not picked up/understood. Irritation usually inward.

Did i miss a connection ?

Without "supporting evidence" like a "felt" shift this bodymind has difficulties to trust itself.

Have a look at this video. Notice the part where the researcher uses virtual reality goggles to put the sense of self outside and behind the body. https://www.dropbox.com/s/al2k2mya8jt4o ... u.mp4?dl=0
Then tell me if you can trust your feelings to confirm anything.

Have to learn trusting.

If we examine trust, it is easy to see that it is not an actual thing. That it is a concept that describes an absence of stories that engender fear sensations. Is it a concept that doesn't arise unless suspicion happens ? Is trust always about what might happen in the future ?

But it would be nice to go to bed knowing it was here when I wake up in the morning.

Yes, i know what you mean. Now, is it possible to know anything ? Give me one example of something that you know for sure.

"That" seem so illusive, vulnerable and shy. Here one day, gone the other.

Another example of impermanence.

an endless chain of cause and effect?

Good one (the ?) Yes, cause and effect is something we can examine productively. Is this a concept or something actual ?

How that even is possible..?

i don't understand the question.

This process brings up some childishness and child like thinking

Yes. At what age do you think conditioning to believe in a Self, started ?

What worries the most today

Did you recognize the activity of the worry stories ? ..or did it engulf you to the point where the result was emotional expression of the content of the stories ?

the happening of a seeming come back of the "me", feebler but here.

How many years of conditioning, of habit are we looking to drop ?

Feelings of sadness arise.

Oh, not just worry stories, but stories of loss too.
Is there a sense of ownership, of possession in identification ?

Maybe too attached to freedom.

..attached to an idea, or something more tangible ?

love & hugs

vince