Birdman

[Birdman]

If you capture the moment between the sting sensation and thoughts arriving (to explain), you could call that Direct Experience.
By the time the mind enters, it is memory (that is the first instance of the sting)
If you take the direct experiencing of seeing, there is nothing else. No subject, no object. Just seeing. Now don't take my word for this. Look at something and keep focussing until thoughts quieten. Don't try and quieten them. Just wait. It will happen.

Good afternoon Vince!

sometimes the day starts off with a bang

Oops, sounds nervewrecking!!

If you welcome it (rather than attempt to avoid it) it will morph into excitement. A great new adventure. (not that you can actually DO anything about it)

Excitement here for sure... I guess it must be fear on some level that does not reach my mind. I welcome it as a pregnant woman welcomes her labour. I already feel rather exited at times over this, but sometimes get overwhelmed by despair, but more excitment than despair!

The big thing here is not what was happening, but that you could SEE it happening. No need (for you) to explain it.

Getting better every day reading the me.

Ah, story arises, that you were in the 'flight' phase of the fright/flight reaction.

This is odd. “Story arises”. I am not aware of the story but I agree that those were signs of fear. Alarm in the body. But more fascination than fear. Body seem more talkative than mind here. At least more easy to "read". From throat down to the navel area.

Beliefs are a 'living out' of the concept.
As with all of this stuff, don't ever take what i say as gospel

Interesting facet!
Wow, whatever belief I think of seem ancient! As if never questioned, just gets dragged along through the years. Strange find.

When doing this stuff, i can literally see how our language is evolved by our interpretation of experience. ..and how our experience is shaped by our language.

Yes we have created each other over the centuries so no wonder we are chained sometimes by the language. But hard to believe that the colour it the clear sky or sea (sometimes) didn't have a name until recently!

Ah, nail head being hit !
It's easy to overlook what IS.
For Vince, the portal to 'waking up', was when I was told "the mosquito bite of seeking will never heal while you keep scratching it." ..then THIS IS IT ! hit Me in the face.

But aren't we scratching here? Could this be counterproductive?
Re the nail head; "too close to be seen". A biggie apparently. But if it is to close to see is there anything to be done? It's just too close. Just pray for the random grace? I can see there is not any solidity in me/I/the experiencer, mere thoughts, beliefs and notions, I can see that no one is Doing the sensory input, it just seem to happen. But in every cell of my body it seem to be the experiencer, the subject. This is the crux. I can't seem to get past this. Deep conditioning, too hung up on language? Too "rich" to get through the needles eye? I feel stuck in a dead end with brick walls all over painted grafitti style with lots of words.

Neuroscience tells us that the whole thing happened in your brain. That two people sitting side by side, would see entirely different objects. (although they would probably give it the same label)
Is there a see-er and a seen ? ..or only see-ing ?

Was at a concert this evening. There were no doer of the hearing or seeing if looked into closely. There were seeing and hearing. "I" seemed to mystically merge with the object. Spontaneously hopeless to try finding a limit where the listener ends and the listened-to starts. The seeing seem to appear at the object strangely enough! No apparent distance between seer and seen. But is that TRUE? The "bodymind" have another take on it. Light passing through the lens, picked up by receptors in the eye, travelling via nerves and synapses to the centre of vision in the brain...and so on. A scientific "story"? Are there multiple truths?

I know of experience that believing is not going to do it. Nowadays I don't take anyone's word (in these matters at least) as an object of belief. Has to be "seen".
The apparent "subject" of mine seem to mostly dwell in my body, sharing room with my intuition...
That's interesting! Means that most of what we experience "now" apparently is already history! When I look, there is only "now" and it's an eternal now like the dinosaurs perished "now". But at the same time now is extremely short! Feels almost as it isn't even a "now" So eternity AND very short "depth of field" (photo term) at the same time. This is when scrutinised, maybe not felt in ordinary life. More of a deduction but definitely seen.
Had a lesson in DE yesterday morning. Sat I the yard sipping tea when I heard a weird, powerful noise close over my head, coming fast from right to left. I caught a glimpse of something. Didn't last long until I realised it was a murderous magpie chasing an intruder off his territory. History in a matter of seconds.

Sorry, messed up with quotes but i thing you´ll get it
Back when travelling done

Best regards with gratitude
Birdman

[Birdman]

Birdman wrote:
"But WHO/WHAT is having these sensation/thoughts???"

Lateral thinking (if it happens) can be useful for some answers .
It's language again. It seduces us into a particular form of thinking. Perhaps, demand, rather than seduces.
The answer to this question can't be known from the perspective of the organism. It can only be deduced. A logical conclusion can be arrived at, but isn't helpful.
What is helpful is to recognize the obsessive nature of thoughts. That they have been conditioned to want to rest in explanation. They categorize and explain, in order to label, and have great dissatisfaction without a neat conclusion.

Lateral thinking, yes maybe. Conclusion, no, it is not helping since I can´t digest, swallow and get the answer in the system and Yes, some beliefs/thoughts are obsessive, like a dog chasing its tail. "Rest in explanation" - absolutely! Since early days "categorize and explain, in order to label, and have great dissatisfaction without a neat conclusion" as the years went by... I really want to end this madness - I know that the "understanding" and "explaining" really don´t get me anywhere.

[Birdman]

Vince wrote: "Pick a belief, any belief and consider the last time that you tested it, or questoned it in any way"

That was a scary wake up as I realised that almost none of the most basic beliefs about mysel have not ever been questioned!
So I have a new inquiry on a file: "Beliefs and notions about a "me" - virtually never questioned thoughts and ideas". There's already a bunch of them... Easy to realise the the thought nature of them.

[Birdman]

Dear Vince!

Night (only 00.30) before leaving the city.
Looked into labelling and thoughts. Strikes me that I am neither a "man" nor "human being", just an expression or manifestation of life! Not different in essence from the warm manifestation beside me usually labeled "dog"!
"Whats in a name?"

Cheers!
Birdman

[vinceschubert]

Good morning Birdman,

I will soon be back. DE continues meanwhile.

No worries and good stuff.

but sometimes get overwhelmed by despair, but more excitement than despair!

The 'usual' response is to welcome excitement and to avoid despair. Consider how much the body reactions to these might change if we had a different attitude to them.
Do you think that it is possible that you might come to consider despair as a message carrier, rather than something to be changed ?

Ah, story arises, that you were in the 'flight' phase of the fright/flight reaction.
This is odd. “Story arises”.

No, i was meaning that these thoughts happened here (for me) and that phraseology was me reminding myself that it might or might not be accurate. i could (almost) equally say "what comes to mind" but that doesn't reflect the fantasy nature of thoughts sufficiently.

Body seem more talkative than mind here.

Ah, excellent stuff. If you also recognize that the interpretation of bodily sensations also might or might not be accurate. Just observing without opinion (best), or recognizing the tentative nature of conclusions (next best).

whatever belief I think of seem ancient! As if never questioned, just gets dragged along through the years. Strange find.

Brilliant find !

But hard to believe that the colour it the clear sky or sea (sometimes) didn't have a name until recently!

..but even harder (for me) to see that without the name, it wasn't seen at all. In a way, this is what we are doing here. We aren't coming up with new names (well, a few), but new considerations (and perhaps new descriptions) which invites new responses.

But aren't we scratching here?

The metaphor is limited. The itch of seeking is always focussed on the future. What we are doing is adjusting focus to NOW. (very productive)

But if it is to close to see is there anything to be done?

Firstly, i know what you mean. Then i hone in on the word "done", as a portal to another illusion. We'll come back to this one later, but suffice to say that 'DOing' is another illusion. 'It will happen' is a better way of expressing it.

random grace?

It is often explained this way. It's only relevent for those obsessed with explanation.

But in every cell of my body it seem to be the experiencer, the subject. This is the crux. I can't seem to get past this.

Don't try. Simply recognizing the urge to explain (and letting it go - if that happens) is enough.

I feel stuck in a dead end with brick walls all over painted grafitti style with lots of words.

Good description. Good seeing. Rest in that. It is enough.

No apparent distance between seer and seen. But is that TRUE?

The question robs the experience. For a long time it was "true" that the earth was flat....
Is TRUTH a social convenience ? A concept ? Does it exist independent of thought ?

Nowadays I don't take anyone's word (in these matters at least) as an object of belief. Has to be "seen".

When i play golf, i frequently see the ball as landing somewhere, only to find when it get there it is somewhere else....

Feels almost as it isn't even a "now"

There isn't. It's language that says "now" belongs to "past" and "future", producing the illusion of time. Try "there is only THIS" while recognizing the limitations of language, that suggests that THIS is a thing. We need a new word here.

Ok, off to golf now (ha) back later.. (you know what i mean, even though there is not one word that is accurate)

love

vince

[Birdman]

Dear Vince,

Do you think that it is possible that you might come to consider despair as a message carrier, rather than something to be changed ?

Absolutely, if I am aware and fast enough I am sure it can be a messenger. Have to catch it before it settles in the mind.

Ah, excellent stuff. If you also recognize that the interpretation of bodily sensations also might or might not be accurate. Just observing without opinion (best), or recognizing the tentative nature of conclusions (next best).

I try the first option always. The stumbling block is when looking for the I in the body is like looking for the sugar in a pineapple - you can't see it but it is permeates throughout.
I have always put the "intuition" high as a kind of "truth" in the body. Of course it is only thoughts that manifest as bodily sensations. Probably not more valid as truth witness than a thought in the mind.

Brilliant find !

I have several rarely questioned beliefs. The most prominent being "the I in the body". Of course it's not there but like the sugar in the pineapple above it keeps on slipping through my fingers. Also a great fan of words, facts and explanations. Probably a way to try handle life's apparent and sometimes scary complexity. (By making I still more complex and opaque!)

The itch of seeking is always focussed on the future. What we are doing is adjusting focus to NOW. (very productive)

Yes, something looked for in a future by a me... Sounds like a recipe for failure. Trying all the time to stay connected with "what is", while doing gardening stuff, when driving, walking along the shores... But also taking time just to sit with it all. Open eyes, closed eyes being aware of sounds and sights, thoughts, sensations, and that they are not "mine". Trying to know myself as nothing but feeling myself as everything. It feels so close, the grass and the sky is me, like the dog beside me, the birds and their sounds. The sunkissed top of the birch tree gently flutter in evening breeze...

'It will happen' is a better way of expressing it.

Yes of course, that belief must go too. Everything is just happening. See glimpses of it but I think I may be too busy building concepts of the collapse of duality. That or mind...

It is often explained this way. It's only relevent for those obsessed with explanation.

Like here ;-)

Don't try. Simply recognizing the urge to explain (and letting it go - if that happens) is enough.

Great idea! Just let it be what is.

Good description. Good seeing. Rest in that. It is enough.

Yes, need more rest here in the busy mind. Although I generally don't "feel" anxious there is probably something anxious on an obscure level.

The question robs the experience. For a long time it was "true" that the earth was flat....
Is TRUTH a social convenience ? A concept ? Does it exist independent of thought ?

Ha! Yes of course, thoughts, labelling. I know, these wiseacre(?) thoughts love to pop up and spoil the party. Truth is a difficult concept. So many different levels. I don't know what level I should settle for. Truth is This, what's appearing Now? Truth is Here? I am not sure what "here" is anymore if not taking into account what thoughts say...

When i play golf, i frequently see the ball as landing somewhere, only to find when it get there it is somewhere else....

Yes! Like "Here" maybe? But where is I as consciousness? I have a pretty good Idea of where this body is now, I can even indicate lat. and long. There seems like that what is looking out through my two holes in the head is not connected to this physical place. Weird sensation...

There isn't. It's language that says "now" belongs to "past" and "future", producing the illusion of time. Try "there is only THIS" while recognizing the limitations of language, that suggests that THIS is a thing. We need a new word here.

It feels a little confusing, this "here"/"now". DE of the situation indicates that both concepts seem a little fuzzy in the outlines :-o No fear, more bemused fascination. I wish there was something that I could not DO!!!

Best greetings!
Birdman

[vinceschubert]

Good evening Birdman,

Have to catch it before it settles in the mind.

Well, yes. ..but in the beginning, while old conditioning is still active, to catch it anytime, even days later, is enough to weaken it. Every time you recognize that it is happening will reduce the intensity and frequency of the old habits.

I have always put the "intuition" high

Yes. This brings us to where we can pay homage to the (potential) 'value' of the unknown.
Rather than allow the obsessive nature of the mind to explain/categorise/label everything. What kind of freedom do you imagine comes with surrendering to what IS ?
Can you see that having an opinion, a conclusion about anything, is a narrowing of focus. That conclusion then needs defending and a further contraction happens.
Conversely, to be welcoming, accepting of what life-ing presents, is a softening, an opening attitude.

Trying all the time to.. ... Trying to know..

Can you see that "trying" to do anything, is future focussed ?

I wish there was something that I could not DO!!!

Another illusion (besides the illusion of an independent Self) is the illusion of DOing.
Lift your left hand above your head.
Now reflect on what just happened.
Was a decision to lift your hand seen to happen ?
Was consideration given to choose or choose not to do it ?
Do thoughts arrive 'post action', that say "I could have done that differently." ?
Of course we can speculate as to how these thing actually happen. Story here is that they are the result of the alignment of conditions necessary for the happening to eventuate.
When surrendering to THIS, happens, there is no need to explain how things occur. i like the term 'great mystery'. Everything 'emerges' from this.
Another 'benefit' of this, is that the wonder of life-ing becomes more apparent.

I think I may be too busy building concepts of the collapse of duality. That or mind...

Whatever is happening, it is an opportunity to just accept it as THIS. ..and when that happens, celebrate the recognition with a laugh. This is the quickest way to relinquish old habits and establish new neuronal pathways that facilitate new, more useful conditioning.

Yes, need more rest here in the busy mind.

Mabe. It's a plausible story.

Ha! Yes of course, thoughts, labelling. I know, these wiseacre(?) thoughts love to pop up and spoil the party.

If they happen in future, they might be a source of amusement.

Truth is...

Truth, like God, Enlightenment, Awareness, Reality, (and consciousness) are concepts that have been corrupted to such a degree, that i find it better to avoid them altogether.

But where is I as consciousness?

Dunno.
(i'll just add consciousness to that list above)

I have a pretty good Idea of where this body is now,

This is also a story. Although it is a useful story. Necessary for communication and navigation.

It feels a little confusing,

Limited by language, we have to accept that the use of words for communication is almost completely metaphor.

love

vince

[Birdman]

Dear Vince!

Thank you for so patiently listening to my thoughts.

Every time you recognize that it is happening will reduce the intensity and frequency of the old habits.

Started this morning with tea in the garden. Birds, sounds, sights of the most pleasant kind in this aeriest time of year. But like the serpent in paradise there are these not so pleasant sensations in the body like a murmur with no apparent reason. I mentioned it before, contractions and palpitations (not severe but enough to be clearly noticed) from throat down to solar plexus. Looking at, and behind them revels not much. Need help dealing with them. Trying to sit with them and make them show themselves and what they represent. They are not always there but often a couple of hours after waking up facing the world. Even if all surroundings are pleasant.

Can you see that having an opinion, a conclusion about anything, is a narrowing of focus. That conclusion then needs defending and a further contraction happens.
Conversely, to be welcoming, accepting of what life-ing presents, is a softening, an opening attitude.

As I said, I had a glimpse through the gate and what I recall is the most spacious, clear and easiest-to-breathe moments. It was beyond explaining, no labelling or categorising needed, deep sense of "this it it". Similar to what I recall I had moments of also as a youngster. So much complexity, entanglement just seemed to fall away. "Welcoming" attitude resounds here!
Of course it's a narrowing of focus having conclusions and opinions! Like the blindfolded men describing an elephant or the innocent rope mistaken for a snake.

Can you see that "trying" to do anything, is future focussed ?

Yes! And locks into the sticky me. And is definitely not now. So hard to stop trying, so deeply conditioned.

Lift your left hand above your head.
Now reflect on what just happened.
Was a decision to lift your hand seen to happen ?
Was consideration given to choose or choose not to do it ?
Do thoughts arrive 'post action', that say "I could have done that differently." ?
Of course we can speculate as to how these thing actually happen. Story here is that they are the result of the alignment of conditions necessary for the happening to eventuate.
When surrendering to THIS, happens, there is no need to explain how things occur. i like the term 'great mystery'. Everything 'emerges' from this.
Another 'benefit' of this, is that the wonder of life-ing becomes more apparent.

Lifting of the hand happened or did not happen, but not actually a "choice".
"conditions necessary for the happening to eventuate." Love that wording obviously! Seem to say it all but... sufficient for me to rest in.
"Mysteries" are perfectly ok here. So many of them that the label "mystery" is indispensable. For Instance, is there really matter? If you hit me with a golf club I would surely say that matter is or at least feel the effect of it on my body. But in its essence it is wave motion, undulation. So to really point to the matter on a subatomic level I understand is impossible.
Stop doing trying, understanding, just letting grass be mowed, letting bicycling with dog happen, letting it all unfold in its time. As often as I can I try dE seeing. It is getting easier and easier to just let seeing happen. Just staying with the raw unprocessed sensory input. Sometimes my vision becomes apparently clearer and the gaze seem to just resting. At those moments I can sometimes feel the non-distance and merging with the seen.

Whatever is happening, it is an opportunity to just accept it as THIS. ..and when that happens, celebrate the recognition with a laugh. This is the quickest way to relinquish old habits and establish new neuronal pathways that facilitate new, more useful conditioning.

Moments of "pure seeing" happens often when least expected. Mind is quieter. But all seem to be watched... Not always apparent, sometimes rather free but still not free.

If they happen in future, they might be a source of amusement.

That would be a revolution!! At least a smile can come up occasionally when noticing the silliness of the thoughts.

But where is I as consciousness?
Dunno.
(i'll just add consciousness to that list above)

Ok, point taken. It's getting more and more difficult to talk about these things. Maybe better to stick with d.E.
I don't know if this is of any importance but for "me" now it seems so. Re. d.E.: it is divided into three categories, Thought, Sensations and the feeling of Aliveness. I can understand Sensations and Aliveness but thoughts? Are they on the same levels as seeing, hearing etc... I thought they should be taken with a grain of salt. Or only thoughts that point back to the I. "The tree is budding" or the "I wonder if that bird was a red kite"? How are those to be looked upon? Labelling it seems to me. Part of being a human life form?

This is also a story. Although it is a useful story. Necessary for communication and navigation.

Ha! ;-) You mean by "story" that it is purely mind-stuff, thought based and nothing to do with direct experience?

Limited by language, we have to accept that the use of words for communication is almost completely metaphor.

I feel that I write you too little and to short. But on the other hand the word count couldn't be the most important here. I try to express what is felt and seen inside of this "body-mind unit". On a conceptual level all seem so clear. I "see" that ball of sticky labels and thoughts that make up this sense of "I".

Reading the massive Enlightening Quotes from Liberation Unleashed every day. Some wordings find deep resonance in this "me" like:
"We think that we are the thinker and doer in our lives, not realising that, like the rest of reality, we are simply life expressing itself"
"If there is no belief in a separate "you", then there are no expectations. Life is just experience unfolding. Expectations are nothing more than thoughts"
"Everything is conceptual except direct experience"

Kindest, most grateful regards

Birdman

[Birdman]

Dear Vince!

Chest region quiet today. Kept looking at a familiar "tree" this morning. Started out as the "tree" to evolve to an elm-tree. Took away label after label until it was experienced as a life form. Even that label went. Ended up as pure nameless life of the same essence as the observer until felt that we are connected in essence. Maybe not even "we" for moments.
Warm, smooth feeling.

[Birdman]

Sitting, looking, listening, watching in and out, stripping labels, concepts seem to give the most rewarding experiences. It is as if everything comes to a halt. That this is what "IS". Easier to experience when seeing than listening. Not even e humble chair isn't a chair any more. Seems almost alive in a sense.
Strange and wonderful!

[vinceschubert]

Good evening Birdman,

Thank you for so patiently listening to my thoughts.

No worries. i wasn't aware of patience or impatience. The story of an end goal, and how soon (or otherwise) we reach it, is very background here.

But like the serpent in paradise there are these not so pleasant sensations in the body

Hmm, time to talk about wisdom.
As the cacophony of thought stories and their attendant emotions begin to quieten, a certain wisdom is revealed in the 'space' that emerges. It may be associated with intuition, but it's more to do with serenity promoting a wider perspective. (flowery words, but it's difficult to describe, and even more difficult to point you to see for yourself)
What is unpleasant about these sensations ? Do the sensations attract a label of pain ? ..or does the mystery of what they mean, result in stories that produce unpleasant emotions ?
A useful analogy, is to see thoughts as like the sound of the refrigerator. Something that is just there in the background, hardly noticeable, unless something is wrong. In the case of these sensations, might they be indicating that further investigations would be prudent ? Is it something that we could attend to ourselves, or do we need a specialist ?
A great technique for revealing what isn't so apparent, is to write what comes to mind quickly. Say the first thing that comes out. Then without editing, examine it more closely.
For example, when you say "They are not always there but often a couple of hours after waking up facing the world.", the phrase "facing the world", seems revealing.
Try describing the sensations (writing them down) and see what comes out.

So hard to stop trying, so deeply conditioned.

Yes, many years of conditioning. Laughter as a celebration of the recognition...

If you hit me with a golf club I would surely say that matter is or at least feel the effect of it on my body.

Ha, no, you would say "ouch!", then a story about the other stuff might happen.

Not always apparent, sometimes rather free but still not free.

Nothing is "always". Impermanence seems to be a characteristic of everything.

I can understand Sensations and Aliveness but thoughts? Are they on the same levels as seeing, hearing etc

As the senses are input channels, so i see thought.
The DE of thought is the fact of the thought. That it occurred. Not it's content. Just as we interpret sensation, so do we have story about what the content of thought means. Mind is the sixth sense (my story)

I thought they should be taken with a grain of salt.

Some stories are useful. Most are junk. ..and some are indispensable for communication and navigating society. None need to be believed, but it is appropriate to behave AS IF the useful and indispensable ones are accurate.

Labelling it seems to me. Part of being a human life form?

Certainly a conditioned part of the cult(ure) we live in.

You mean by "story" that it is purely mind-stuff

Yes. Thought stream = story.

Ended up as pure nameless life...

Lovely.
i expect that many of these moments will visit.
Do you have expectations that this will be "always" ?

Strange and wonderful!

Yes, WonderFull !

love

vince

[Birdman]

Dear Vince!

The story of an end goal, and how soon (or otherwise) we reach it, is very background here.

Good to hear. Yes, I feel exited over this but at the same time very humble. I wish I could say that an end goal is background here but then I would not be completely honest. I can say though at this point that our communication and its spin offs are already exceeding my expectations. There are very down to earth tools in my hands. Good feeling.

As the cacophony of thought stories and their attendant emotions begin to quieten, a certain wisdom is revealed in the 'space' that emerges. It may be associated with intuition, but it's more to do with serenity promoting a wider perspective. (flowery words, but it's difficult to describe, and even more difficult to point you to see for yourself)
What is unpleasant about these sensations ? Do the sensations attract a label of pain ? ..or does the mystery of what they mean, result in stories that produce unpleasant emotions ?
A useful analogy, is to see thoughts as like the sound of the refrigerator. Something that is just there in the background, hardly noticeable, unless something is wrong. In the case of these sensations, might they be indicating that further investigations would be prudent ? Is it something that we could attend to ourselves, or do we need a specialist ?
A great technique for revealing what isn't so apparent, is to write what comes to mind quickly. Say the first thing that comes out. Then without editing, examine it more closely.
For example, when you say "They are not always there but often a couple of hours after waking up facing the world.", the phrase "facing the world", seems revealing.
Try describing the sensations (writing them down) and see what comes out.

I think I understand what you are pointing at (if I don't try to hard ;)
"Stories" are not felt as a big deal here, maybe the emotions they create in the body...the murmur. There are of course "stories" about "me" but they don't seem so prominent or insistent. Love the word "serenity", so beautiful and what it points at.
"What is unpleasant about these sensations?"
Unpleasant I believe because they might point to something "unresolved" on some deep level. I don't ponder much on that. If an explanation comes or not comes, it's ok.After all, this is not psychotherapy...
When they come, it sit with them like I sit with a unhappy 3-year-old. There has been quiet now for a couple of days though.
No physical pain but uneasiness. Yes it's a mystery but not any stories.
Yes, they are there sometimes. But not worse than I can handle them. Have seen "medical specialists of right kind" in the past but not necessary now, far from that level! I would be happy continue investigating with my dear "Virgil" guiding me through this sleepwalkers inferno.
Absolutely! I already take notes, both in writing and using voice memo on my phone. Agree that "facing the world" is revealing. Will try to look into this more... Yes, facing a new day in this dualistic and complicated existence. What if it is a bodily sign of this bodyminds longing for awakening? A deep knowing that "this" is not it! As I told you in my presentation I had waking up experiences as a youth. Maybe That wants to be known again and pushes like labour in my body sometimes

Yes, many years of conditioning. Laughter as a celebration of the recognition...

Here happens at least a smile from time to time.

Nothing is "always". Impermanence seems to be a characteristic of everything.

Yes, easy to realise.

The DE of thought is the fact of the thought. That it occurred. Not it's content.

Ok, thanks for clarifying. The occurrence of the thought. Right.

Some stories are useful. Most are junk. ..and some are indispensable for communication and navigating society. None need to be believed, but it is appropriate to behave AS IF the useful and indispensable ones are accurate.

So "stories" are seen as thoughts like chapters that make up a whole novel..?

i expect that many of these moments will visit.
Do you have expectations that this will be "always" ?

I dare not hope but try to live as much as I can in DE. When I'm alone now with my dog it is much easier than when having people around me. Will have a visit soon a couple of days. That should be exiting to see how easy it is to stay connected to DE...
As you said and I agreed on, nothing is always, so I don't expect a life constantly blissed-out but maybe a level of "awakeness"(?) so that I more easily can see clear that what is, is this and "Thou art That". To see beyond all labels and concepts to THAT what IS. Maybe with that realisation comes the "easy breathing" (by dropping of heavy ego) and maybe a larger degree of lightheartedness ( don't know if that's the right word).

Random thoughts

I have a feeling that i might mix up the sense of aliveness and take that for the "me"...

It's increasingly easy to peel off labels of objects, nature or rather things I see, to get to the THAT secret/open essence of what's being seen. But more difficult with auditory input, not to mention stripping the "me" of labels and concepts.

Digging into my physical sensations. It is probably fear. Trying to see what that fear is protecting. Seems that it wants to protect some sort of familiar and secure commonplace ordinariness.

Asking myself what I cling to. I think I cling to my low keyed "I", from where I can look out on the world. Although sick of it, it is still a safe and familiar place, the man with the stoic temperament, trying to be kind to and to understand everybody and himself. I don't know what will come in its place. Probably what upsets the "mind" and
projects in the body.

Kindest greetings (and sorry for bad quoting, must find a better workflow!)
Birdman

[vinceschubert]

Good evening Birdman,

I wish I could say that an end goal is background here but then I would not be completely honest.

Can you see a background story that says it would be good if it was background for you.
The Seeing of what comes up, is the perspective we are looking to have. You saw it, but you didn't (apparently) see that you saw it. That is you were focussed on the content, and not the fact that this is what happened. (a bit convoluted, but hopefully you get what i'm pointing at)
The story mentioned was a judgement. An opinion. Would you agree ?

Unpleasant I believe because they might point to something "unresolved" on some deep level.

Yes, these are the stories i was referencing. Now they don't have to be conscious to exist. "Believe...point to.." is enough to tell you that they exist.
Whether they are true or not is of no relevance. We are only interested in recognizing that they exist.
Once that happens we can decide if they are useful/necessary/waste of energy/etc.
If it doesn't happen, then we are compelled to 'live out' the contents. ..and because they are somewhat buried, that is likely to be a fear response.
What say you to that ?

What if it is a bodily sign of this bodyminds longing for awakening?

It may well be. Not necessarily the "longing", but the bodily response to entrenched conditioning being disturbed. Muscle memory being released. Maybe. Who knows ? We could have any number of stories about it.

So "stories" are seen as thoughts like chapters that make up a whole novel..?

Yes. A good way to look at it. The story of Self, has many chapters, covering every aspect.

try to live as much as I can in DE.

Don't "try" too hard. It is much more productive to recognize when it isn't happening. ..and of course, as soon as it is seen, it is happening.
If you celebrate the recognition (with a smile/laugh) when it happens, even if it is some time afterwards, the old conditioning will fall away, and new conditioning will be established sooner.

That should be exiting to see how easy it is to stay connected to DE...

Yes. Just be relaxed, and don't judge yourself. It's all a wonderfull adventure.

I have a feeling that i might mix up the sense of aliveness and take that for the "me"...

Do you know anything about this "sense of aliveness" other than that it exists ?

But more difficult with auditory input,

What if you recognize that the auditory input is experiencing ?

not to mention stripping the "me" of labels and concepts.

Don't try and strip them away. Just recognize that they are happening (when they do) and they will drop away.

Digging into my physical sensations. It is probably fear. Trying to see what that fear is protecting. Seems that it wants to protect some sort of familiar and secure commonplace ordinariness.

Ok, explore this a bit more. What might happen if the "commonplace ordinariness" is lost ? (what is the first thing that comes to mind ?)
What might "come in it's place" ?

love

vince

[Birdman]

Dear Vince!

Good to have some disturbances here, easier than I thought. No breakthrough but occasionally glimpses!

Can you see a background story that says it would be good if it was background for you.

Yes, I think so. By concentration on a goal in the future the focus shifts from "what is here" to a thought based fantasy. Seems clear.

The story mentioned was a judgement. An opinion. Would you agree ?

Not quite sure what you mean with the question...

Yes, these are the stories i was referencing. Now they don't have to be conscious to exist. "Believe...point to.." is enough to tell you that they exist.
Whether they are true or not is of no relevance. We are only interested in recognizing that they exist.
Once that happens we can decide if they are useful/necessary/waste of energy/etc.
If it doesn't happen, then we are compelled to 'live out' the contents. ..and because they are somewhat buried, that is likely to be a fear response.
What say you to that ?

Yes, they exist as unknown stories manifested in the body. The sensations in the body seem "true" enough (still quiet though). Yes, sensations in the body seem like a fear reaction. Something in the mind(?) is under pressure and have to manifest in one way or another. Thoughts/opinions fighting somewhere possibly. - if thoughts can fight...

Don't "try" too hard. It is much more productive to recognize when it isn't happening. ..and of course, as soon as it is seen, it is happening.
If you celebrate the recognition (with a smile/laugh) when it happens, even if it is some time afterwards, the old conditioning will fall away, and new conditioning will be established sooner.

I know... So deeply conditioned to do the best I can. There has been a relaxation. I will try to turn it around as you suggest to realise when it is not happening but then happening. The last days there has been experienced moments of serenity. Moments seemingly free from I. Relief, smoothness and occasionally some smiling at the ridiculousness of minds talk.

Do you know anything about this "sense of aliveness" other than that it exists ?

It is that sense of "I Am" that is present from waking up until falling asleep. The immediate sense of aliveness. Tricky to know where the border is between "it" and "me". But I guess that "sense of aliveness" is just that but with no thoughts and concepts attached unlike the "me".

What if you recognize that the auditory input is experiencing ?

Have to work on that. There is something special with hearing, so much carrier of important things like words and music and all sounds of nature. What is heard, seems to me has a more direct impact than seeing.

Don't try and strip them away. Just recognize that they are happening (when they do) and they will drop away.

Ok, relief here!

What might happen if the "commonplace ordinariness" is lost ? (what is the first thing that comes to mind ?)
What might "come in it's place" ?

Some sort of chaos, the sense of direction might be lost. It is not much to hold on to but it's what I have. That is answering your first question. But, I am here to see it go! Don't want it any more. Want to wake up from this dream/nightmare of "commonplace ordinariness". Sensation of light desperation arises. Sometimes it feels so close but there is something that will not let go of "me". Scratching to much probably the itch of awakening.
Trying letting go (if that is not an contradiction) and occasionally clear seeing is experienced. See extraordinary aliveness short moments.

Best regards
Birdman

[Birdman]

Dear Vince!
Glimpses and insights all the time today!
"I" seem unreal. Please talk to me about "sense of Aliveness" and "me"/"self".
I think there is a stumbling block there...

Much love
Birdman