Introduction

[Canfora]

Hey Wesley,

Thank you for your answer.

I can't find any I. There's my sense perceptions going on - seeing, hearing, etc- some thinking. And I don't know if it's there. This evoked this stubbornness though.

So, if you can't find an I, is stubbornness happening to you or is stubbornness happening?
Have a look. Can you see any personal happenings going on?

Is stubbornness = sensations + thoughts about sensations? Or something else?

And I don't know if it's there.

What do you mean by "there"? To where are you looking at, to see if there is a self?

Hug

[WesleySPK]

So, if you can't find an I, is stubbornness happening to you or is stubbornness happening?
Have a look. Can you see any personal happenings going on?

I had a look and I didn't find any personal happenings going on and although I am not feeling that stubbornness now, what I am experiencing isn't happening to me, it's just happening.

Is stubbornness = sensations + thoughts about sensations? Or something else?

Well yeah I suppose so. It seemed to be directly resistant to looking for an I, but the reality was a sensation and thoughts about the sensation, and interpreting my experiencing.

What do you mean by "there"? To where are you looking at, to see if there is a self?

Well I don't know. I'm just looking. I look in my experience, I pay attention to myself looking, I close my eyes and look and I don't know what I'm looking for.

[Canfora]

This is interesting:

I pay attention to myself looking

Look at this "myself" and describe what you see. Where is this my-self located and how do you know it is there?

[WesleySPK]

Look at this "myself" and describe what you see. Where is this my-self located and how do you know it is there?

What I see is the outline of my nose, feint shadows of my brows, and then...nothing. Just nothing, just what I see. And perhaps a thought "what is this that is looking" or "I am looking", or "what am I?" as I look around. Well, it seems to be located behind or in between my eyes when I'm using my visual sense. If I close my eyes, it's also nothing. It's like looking into a mirror and trying to catch your eyes coming back to looking at themselves, but you always just miss it, you can never quite see it. It seems to be so close, right there somewhere, this "myself". But I don't know where it is located? And I don't know if it's there.

[Canfora]

What I see is the outline of my nose, feint shadows of my brows, and then...nothing. Just nothing, just what I see.

You don't see nothing or you see what you see?
When you say "nothing" do you mean that you can't see a you?

And perhaps a thought "what is this that is looking" or "I am looking", or "what am I?" as I look around.

When this kind of thoughts pop up, do they seem to reinforce the idea that an I must be somewhere?

Well, it seems to be located behind or in between my eyes when I'm using my visual sense.

Is this a though about a sensation? Do you believe this idea that you are between the eyes? Try to imagine what is between the eyes - let's say you are having a surgery and at the same time observing what is being done in the body. Do you think the surgeon would find an I inside your head? Or anywhere in the body?

It's like looking into a mirror and trying to catch your eyes coming back to looking at themselves, but you always just miss it, you can never quite see it. It seems to be so close, right there somewhere, this "myself". But I don't know where it is located? And I don't know if it's there.

Well, you can't see it because it isn't real. And the only thing you need to do, to check if a self exists or not, is to look for one, in the places were you think a self is. Are these thoughts about a self that seems to be right there somewhere pointing to a self that can be experienced here and now? Have a look. What do you see? What is here and what isn't here? The truth is in plain sight. Can you see a self?

[WesleySPK]

Sorry busy time, I will get back to you tomorrow.

[Canfora]

Okay.

[WesleySPK]

You don't see nothing or you see what you see?
When you say "nothing" do you mean that you can't see a you?

I see what I see. And when I say nothing, yes I mean I can't see an I. I cannot see an I, but am curious still as to what is looking because I suppose that's where this I must be.

When this kind of thoughts pop up, do they seem to reinforce the idea that an I must be somewhere?

Yes. But my intention is to be looking for the deeper "I", a sort of non-personal I which it begins to feel like.

s this a though about a sensation? Do you believe this idea that you are between the eyes? Try to imagine what is between the eyes - let's say you are having a surgery and at the same time observing what is being done in the body. Do you think the surgeon would find an I inside your head? Or anywhere in the body?

Hmm...I suppose it is, and I don't know if I believe it but it seemed real. But as I examine what you are saying, I begin to see that I am not between the eyes. No, I don't think the surgeon would find an I inside my head - or anywhere else in the body.

Well, you can't see it because it isn't real. And the only thing you need to do, to check if a self exists or not, is to look for one, in the places were you think a self is. Are these thoughts about a self that seems to be right there somewhere pointing to a self that can be experienced here and now? Have a look. What do you see? What is here and what isn't here? The truth is in plain sight. Can you see a self?

I had a look and no, the thoughts about the self that is right there somewhere are not pointing to a self that can be experienced here and now. What is here is a glass of water, some books, light, noises, fingers typing, a slight pressure I perceive to be in my head. I do not find a self anywhere.

[Canfora]

I had a look and no, the thoughts about the self that is right there somewhere are not pointing to a self that can be experienced here and now. What is here is a glass of water, some books, light, noises, fingers typing, a slight pressure I perceive to be in my head. I do not find a self anywhere.

This is what I am pointing to. Well done.
If there is no self to be found here and now, what is giving meaning to and believing in the thoughts about the existence of a self?
Thinking maybe? Can you find a self thinking thoughts? Can a thought think?
What can you see causing the illusion that there must be a self somewhere?

[WesleySPK]

This is what I am pointing to. Well done.
If there is no self to be found here and now, what is giving meaning to and believing in the thoughts about the existence of a self?
Thinking maybe? Can you find a self thinking thoughts? Can a thought think?
What can you see causing the illusion that there must be a self somewhere?

That's a great question...And I don't know. Thinking happens, and when it is there appears to be a self thinking the thoughts. I don't know if a thought can think, or what is causing the illusion.

Let me take a day to observe and really ponder this.

And thank you again for your time and effort, it is so appreciated.

[Canfora]

Okay.

I don't know if a thought can think

You can see thoughts while they are happening, I suppose?
Think "banana".
Is the thought "banana" thinking other thoughts?

Is the thought "I" thinking thoughts or is the thought "I" one more thought?

"Banana" is findable. you can go to your kitchen or to a supermarket and find the object this thought refers to.
"I" is also findable? Or just a thought? Have a look.

[WesleySPK]

You can see thoughts while they are happening, I suppose?
Think "banana".
Is the thought "banana" thinking other thoughts?

No, it isn't.

Is the thought "I" thinking thoughts or is the thought "I" one more thought?

It is one more thought

"I" is also findable? Or just a thought? Have a look.

No I cannot find an I. In this moment where I stop and look there isn't any "I". I noticed that today I went through my day with many many thoughts and there only a few moments where I stopped and looked for an "I" and I never found an "I".

I will continue looking tomorrow and get back to you...

[WesleySPK]

Still looking for an "I"!

I have really noticed that although I may have many thoughts throughout my days, and although I encounter uncomfortable feelings, that my thoughts aren't as sticky. I experience myself as less self-conscious. As often as I remember, I try and take notice to whether the "I" thought is thinking other thoughts.

[Canfora]

Hi Wesley!

Still looking for an "I"!

Does that mean you can't find one? To where are you looking at?

I have really noticed that although I may have many thoughts throughout my days

Can you look at thoughts and describe:
- the I you say is having thoughts
- where do thoughts come from

and although I encounter uncomfortable feelings, that my thoughts aren't as sticky.

That's nice.

I experience myself as less self-conscious.

Do you have any idea why?

As often as I remember, I try and take notice to whether the "I" thought is thinking other thoughts.

Do you think it is possible that the I thought is a thinker - a person, an entity that is thinking?

Hug

[WesleySPK]

Hi Sandra!

Does that mean you can't find one? To where are you looking at?

Yes, I have yet to find one. Always if there is a sense of "I", it appears to exist when I am not looking - which is often. Yet, like I said, I haven't been nearly as bothered by my thoughts. I'm looking in my immediate perception, in my thoughts.

Can you look at thoughts and describe:
- the I you say is having thoughts
- where do thoughts come from

-I just come up with a blank, no answer for the first question. Like I don't know where to look, I try to find an "I" having thoughts and it almost seems frustrating because of how impossible it is.
-Again, I am sitting here unable to answer this. And seemingly unable to even look or know where to look. Is there even an answer? Is there some clarity to be had about this?

Do you have any idea why?

Well ultimately, no. But my guess is that I haven't been experiencing as much self-referential thoughts.

Do you think it is possible that the I thought is a thinker - a person, an entity that is thinking?

Well I initially wanted to say no, it is just another thought... But I cannot say that for sure. It's like as soon as I stop and take a moment in my otherwise busy day to ponder whether this I thought is the thinker - is thinking other thoughts - it disappears. And there isn't a sense of having a deep, meditative, pensive moment as if there is something to be found; I feel as though I just stop and look as hard as I can for an "I" and don't find it. And also don't have any big insight, just that in that moment (and in this very moment) there isn't an I to be found.

Should I spend more time and effort pondering this? I haven't had much free time and I haven't been meditating or spending much time inquiring. Where do I look?

Hugs and thanks!