Need help seeing the truth.

[Freddi]

I can't seem to describe any physical qualities of it. But it is felt in the head area; specifically around the eyes. I can't see the color(s), size or shape of it.

If you replaced the word 'sensation' with 'thought', as in "there is still the thought that there is a "self" controlling the motions", would that feel true or truer?

Fred

[Heketi]

If you replaced the word 'sensation' with 'thought', as in "there is still the thought that there is a "self" controlling the motions", would that feel true or truer?

This would still feel true.

[Freddi]

OK Pick an object in front of you, say a pen. Let's call it 'observed' and let's call 'you' the 'observer'.
Now really look at what is given in direct experience and consider the following questions, then let me know what is observed for each one:

1. Zoom out a bit. Look around the pen. Is the 'space' between the pen and you observed or observer?
2. Come a bit closer, look at the hands. Are they observed or observer?
3. Look at the tummy area. Is it observer or observed?
4. Look at the end of the nose. Is it observed or observer?
5. Where is this observer? Can you find it? Or is it assumed to be behind the eyes?
6. Still while staying with what's alive here and now, let's question some assumptions here. When we say 'I am looking at the pen', what is happening, in actual experience? Is a body looking at a pen? Is there a self that is looking at the pen? Can this observing self be seen/heard/touched/tasted?

Thank you!

Fred

[Heketi]

Hi Fred,

1. Zoom out a bit. Look around the pen. Is the 'space' between the pen and you observed or observer?

The space between the pen and me is observed, not the observer.

2. Come a bit closer, look at the hands. Are they observed or observer? 

They are observed.

3. Look at the tummy area. Is it observer or observed? 

Observed.

4. Look at the end of the nose. Is it observed or observer? 
5. Where is this observer? Can you find it? Or is it assumed to be behind the eyes?

While doing #4, the question came up "Where is the observer?" I cannot find it. It has always been assumed to be behind the eyes but never questioned. "What assumes that is even behind the eyes" is another thought that surfaces.

6. Still while staying with what's alive here and now, let's question some assumptions here. When we say 'I am
looking at the pen', what is happening, in actual experience? Is a body looking at a pen? Is there a self that is looking at the pen? Can this observing self be seen/heard/touched/tasted? 

In actual experience, the body is looking at a pen. The thought that there is a self looking at the pen comes up but it cannot be seen, heard, touched, or tasted. The thought that my answers are not correct also comes up.



Thanks!

[Freddi]

In actual experience, the body is looking at a pen.

You said that the feet, the hands, the tummy area and the end of the nose were all observed, so how do you find that the body is doing the looking?
Can you directly experience whatever it is that is doing the looking?

Thank you!
Fred

[Heketi]

You said that the feet, the hands, the tummy area and the end of the nose were all observed, so how do you find that the body is doing the looking?

The thought that "the eyes are doing the looking" comes up.

Can you directly experience whatever it is that is doing the looking?

A "sense of being" comes up, a "sense of looking" and "experiencing" also comes up.



Thank you.

[Freddi]

Thanks!

The thought that "the eyes are doing the looking" comes up

Are you saying that this is an assumption? That it can't be verified?
Look, scan what is given in immediate, direct experience. Can you say for sure that the eyes are doing the looking? Or is it more like a wide open space, within which all that is seen appears?

A "sense of being" comes up, a "sense of looking" and "experiencing" also comes up.

OK Great. Does that sense of looking imply a something that is looking? Or is there just the (sense of) looking?

Fred

[Heketi]

Are you saying that this is an assumption? That it can't be verified? 
Look, scan what is given in immediate, direct experience. Can you say for sure that the eyes are doing the looking? Or is it more like a wide open space, within which all that is seen appears?

It is an assumption that can be verified through direct experience; the eyes are not doing the looking. Your description of it seems to be the most accurate description that I can find. It is indeed like a wide open space "in which all that is seen appears."

Does that sense of looking imply a something that is looking? Or is there just the (sense of) looking?

The sense of looking doesn't imply that something is looking; there is just a sense of looking.

[Freddi]

Thanks!

Now, while staying with direct experience as your benchmark, observe thoughts, how they come and go. Just watch them fly by. No need to get involved in the content of them ...

Can a beginning and an end for each thought be found?
Can you see/touch/taste/hear anything doing the thinking?
Can you find a controller of these thoughts, maybe some entity able to choose only positive thoughts?
Can 'you' opt out of thoughts you don't like?

Thank you!

Fred

[Heketi]

Can a beginning and an end for each thought be found? 

There is no beginning or end to a thought that can be found.

Can you see/touch/taste/hear anything doing the thinking? 

I cannot. The thinking just happens.

Can you find a controller of these thoughts, maybe some entity able to choose only positive thoughts?

No controller can be seen let alone found.

Can 'you' opt out of thoughts you don't like?

No. I could say "I don't like this thought, I don't want to think/see it again," but that would not be the case.

[Freddi]

Thanks for your responses :-)

1. On a count of 3, raise the left or the right hand. And LOOK what actually happens, before any interpretation kicks in. 1-2-3.
Do you see an 'I' deciding which hand to raise then making an effort to raise a hand? Or do you see a hand being raised?
Which hand went up? What are the factors that intervened in this 'choice'?

2. Go up and walk around the room. What is seen, here? Is there a 'self' walking around, deciding which way to go, or is there just a body moving?

3. Observe, in your daily life, events usually called 'decisions', and describe what is directly experienced, in real time.
It can be while making a meal, deciding which friend to call, whatever it is, just as plainly as it looks.
Look and see if you can find a 'me' in the middle of it all, making the decisions, ordering life about.
What factors come into play? Thoughts? Environmental factors? Conditioning (habits, taste, etc)?
When and how does this 'self' come in and claim ownership of the decisions?
Give me two or three of these examples.

Thank you!

Fred

[Heketi]

1. On a count of 3, raise the left or the right hand. And LOOK what actually happens, before any interpretation kicks in. 1-2-3. 
Do you see an 'I' deciding which hand to raise then making an effort to raise a hand? Or do you see a hand being raised? 
Which hand went up? What are the factors that intervened in this 'choice'?

There was a hand seeing being raised; this was the right hand of a body. I can't find any "I" or other entity that made that decision or see any factors that intervened with the choice.

2. Go up and walk around the room. What is seen, here? Is there a 'self' walking around, deciding which way to go, or is there just a body moving?

A body is seen, walking around in circles around a table and sometimes back and forth in a linear motion. There is no "self" seen here either.

3. Observe, in your daily life, events usually called 'decisions', and describe what is directly experienced, in real time. 
It can be while making a meal, deciding which friend to call, whatever it is, just as plainly as it looks. 
Look and see if you can find a 'me' in the middle of it all, making the decisions, ordering life about. 
What factors come into play? Thoughts? Environmental factors? Conditioning (habits, taste, etc)? 
When and how does this 'self' come in and claim ownership of the decisions?
Give me two or three of these examples. 

I had a hard time with this one so I hope the answers below will suffice. It seems that the "self" claims ownership of these decision when the thought (or experience) of them arises. For example the sensation associated with hunger surfaces and it is thought of as "I am hungry" right off the bat.

Decision #1 "Ordering Pizza"

The sensation associated with hunger was felt and the thought "I am hungry" arose which was followed then by another thought, "what do I want to eat?" This too was followed by more thoughts, "I don't feel like driving, it is too cold outside. I'll just order some pizza. " Hunger itself was the factor here.


Decision #2 "Mother's Day Calls."

The thought "it's mother's day, need to call my aunt" came up. That thought alone let to more decisions being made (such as calling and sending messages to multiple people). What is seen then, is a series of action that the body is performing to take care of those tasks.


Thanks!

[Freddi]

Thanks, your examples are perfect.

I can't find any "I" or other entity that made that decision or see any factors that intervened with the choice

In that moment, what about the 'sensation that there is a controlling I' that we were talking about earlier?
Where is it? Can it be found? Or is it also assumed as an afterthought? Does it always have to be recalled?

The thought "it's mother's day, need to call my aunt" came up. That thought alone let to more decisions being made (such as calling and sending messages to multiple people). What is seen then, is a series of action that the body is performing to take care of those tasks.

Great! Would you say that the 'thought' decides? Or is it merely a comment on a felt sensation?
In this instance of the mother's day call to your aunt, what could be called a trigger? A thought? A headline in the papers or a post on Facebook? Does the action pop out of nowhere?

Thanks!

Fred

[Heketi]

Hi Fred,

In that moment, what about the 'sensation that there is a controlling I' that we were talking about earlier? 
Where is it? Can it be found? Or is it also assumed as an afterthought? Does it always have to be recalled?

The sensation isn't really there until it is thought about, either during or after, but not before. At least that is what it seems like, that it needs to be recalled after an action/experience has taken place or during it.

Great! Would you say that the 'thought' decides? Or is it merely a comment on a felt sensation? 

The thought does not decide. It is just a thought; really just a comment (or label added) added to the sensation/experience.

In this instance of the mother's day call to your aunt, what could be called a trigger? A thought? A headline in the papers or a post on Facebook? Does the action pop out of nowhere?

The action was triggered as a result of a thought when a calendar was looked at while trying to figure out what the weather would be like for the day. "May 8th. 2nd Sunday. Mother's day?"



Thank you.

[Freddi]

Thanks!

I'd like to come back to your first post ...

I am looking for a guide to help me see the truth of "no-self". My expectations are to be able to see the truth and recognize it beyond any doubt so that I can see what is real, and what is not. It feels like life really can't begin until this truth has been seen. Another expectation from this is, is inner peace.

How does it feel now, when you read those words?
What would seeing the truth of 'no self' be like? Can the absence of something be seen?
Can you distinguish what is real and what is not? What does that mean, if you put it in other words? Can you give examples?
In the aliveness of what is, in this uninterpreted moment, what is 'inner peace'? Is it a state? Is it a mental picture? Is it a concept that is present or not present?
If this moment presents 'inner peace', where is 'inner war'?
If this moment presents 'inner war', where is 'inner peace'?
Does THIS have an alternative?

Thank you!

Fred