Let's start again

[iLoveCookies]

Let's start again.

[Canfora]

Hi iLoveCookies and welcome (again) to the LU forum.

I'm Sandra and I can guide you if that's okay with you.

At the moment, what are you hoping for? How do you think you will change when you see there is no separate self?

And why did you stop last time?

Looking forward to our talk!

[iLoveCookies]

I'm hoping to see what is true. I do not know if I change or not, it's hard to tell for me just like that.

I didn't feel that was the right person to go on with me that why I stopped.

I'm looking forward too.

[Canfora]

Thank you for your answer.
I would like to know what you think "seeing what is true" is.
How do you know something is true? Can you give me some examples please?

[iLoveCookies]

Seeing what is true. Let's say somebody lied to you and you keep believing it for certain months, days or weeks, but there were certain situation that point you that was the lie so the moment of seeing what is true what the moment of seeing things as they are. That what I understand thru what is true. If someone put you into some kind of lie you saw thru that so situation and perception changes.

How do I know if something is true or not? Let say I put 3 apples on the table, how do I know there is 3 apples there? By perception and to the extent of that perception.

[Canfora]

Let's say somebody lied to you and you keep believing it for certain months, days or weeks, but there were certain situation that point you that was the lie so the moment of seeing what is true what the moment of seeing things as they are. That what I understand thru what is true. If someone put you into some kind of lie you saw thru that so situation and perception changes.

So truth is seeing things as they are, regardless of what others say and what you think? You're going in the good direction :) Have you noticed how thinking is changing all the time and the only thing that seems to validates a thought is another thought?

How do I know if something is true or not? Let say I put 3 apples on the table, how do I know there is 3 apples there? By perception and to the extent of that perception.

This is a good example. Following this line of reasoning, how do you know there is a you here and now?

[iLoveCookies]

Yes, about thought seems to be never ending process.

I'm here and now because I relate myself towards appearing phenomena whatever if that is a thought or sensation of the body.

[Canfora]

I'm here and now because I relate myself towards appearing phenomena whatever if that is a thought or sensation of the body.

Sensations and thoughts are happening sure, they are being experienced, but what about this "myself"? How and where is this self experienced?

Right now you are surrounded by "appearing phenomena": seeing, hearing, touching, tasting, smelling + thinking. You know something is here, exists, when you can perceive that something - like the apples.

If you look for the self, this myself you're talking about, what do you find?

Like you said, you can see appearing phenomena, thoughts, sensations. How about a self? Would you say the self is the body or inside the body or an entity that is perceiving, separated from the perceptions?

[iLoveCookies]

How and where is this self experienced?

I do not know how, it's just there implemented by being born of the womb. And self is experienced here.

If you look for the self, this myself you're talking about, what do you find?

Here, in moment of reading and writing and submitting this response so this is how I'm finding myself.

How about a self? Would you say the self is the body or inside the body or an entity that is perceiving, separated from the perceptions?

Self to seems to be this body not something inside nor outside, so separation from the perception is at the same boat on line with the self.

[Canfora]

Self to seems to be this body not something inside nor outside

Good, let's check the veracity of this idea - below are some questions for you to ponder, take your time with them - I know you have to think to answer these questions but don't forget to examine the experiencing of the body too:

If the body is a self, then does that mean a self is made of bones, flesh, blood, cells, hair and all the stuff that is labeled as body?

Do you perceive all the body as being a self or is the perception of a self located in a specific location? Does this self has a size, a shape, a color?

When you look to a hand, to a leg, to a feet, are you looking to a self?

When a hand moves, is a self moving?

[iLoveCookies]

If the body is a self, then does that mean a self is made of bones, flesh, blood, cells, hair and all the stuff that is labeled as body?

Rather accumulation of those creating body-self. Head is head, bone is bone not self, but they seems to create what I consider myself.

Do you perceive all the body as being a self or is the perception of a self located in a specific location? Does this self has a size, a shape, a color?

I perceive self as all the body which contains perception. Self is just that which realizing it's own framing so the size, shape or color depends on the frame.

When you look to a hand, to a leg, to a feet, are you looking to a self?

No, it's the self looking on hand, leg and feet.

When a hand moves, is a self moving?

The hand is moving, the self is knowing i t.

[Canfora]

No, it's the self looking on hand, leg and feet.

Are you saying there is a self inside the body, looking to the body? How do you know this is true?
Let's say the body is being operated and at the same time, they have connected you to an amazing new technology that lets you be aware of what the surgeon is doing. Do you think the surgeon will find a separate self somewhere inside the body? A little me inside the head, looking trough the eyes and thinking thoughts?

[iLoveCookies]

Well, no. I understand that there is no self but I can't see it. It's make sense what you are saying. By looking for myself as for an object I cannot say that there is self, because I can see only thoughts, consciousness, body parts and when I look inside let's say that I cut myself in half and see if there is any self I will not find anything like that. Seems I'm not looking right or not even looking by just trying to make some understanding out of it.

[Canfora]

I understand that there is no self but I can't see it.

You can't see that there is no self? Does that mean you see a self? Or are you so tangled in thoughts about how this should be, that you dismiss what you are already seeing: "I can see only thoughts, consciousness, body parts and when I look inside let's say that I cut myself in half and see if there is any self I will not find anything like that."

If I tell you that what you are looking for is in plain sight, would you agree? Or do you think the truth must be somewhere, in a different time (the future, maybe), a different place, a diferent reality, other than this obvious aliveness that is going on right now?

[iLoveCookies]

Sorta.

Yes but when I poke my eyes out, I will see - nothing but still see blackness of lacking of the eye, so it's not the sight?

I think truth can be seen, I feeling like there I'm looking for lost necklace which is attached to me but still looking for "where it can be?".