Can't tell if I've seen through the illusion

[blackh]

Ty,

No... what I mean is... what elements does direct experience consist of? There are thoughts, there's sight, there are sounds,... What else is there?


Steve

[Seahawks5862]

Steve,

OK...feelings, thoughts, sight, taste, smell, touch, and hearing.

Ty

Ty

[blackh]

Ty,

Great answer. Now, are you sure you have got everything? If you look between and behind your thoughts, feelings and sensations - try to look into the depths of your being - is there anything there that can be experienced?


Steve

[Seahawks5862]

Steve,

Yes...there is space, depth and the deeper that it feels I'm going fear comes in. I have experienced this many times before. It feels like there is this hole that is very deep but panic and fear strike. I may be off topic but that was the experience.

Ty

[blackh]

Ty,

Definitely not off-topic, and there definitely is no "right" answer or judgement in this.

Also I don't want you to get overwhelmed so don't proceed if the fear becomes too much.

When we talked about fear earliest you said fear is a feeling with a mental label. Just to clarify, by "feeling" did you mean sensation or emotion? (since that word has two meanings.)

Either way, a thought saying "I don't like this" has arisen. There's something in there that this thought wants to protect you from. Can you see anything in this deep hole? Is there some horror in there? Or is it just fear telling you not to look?


Steve

[Seahawks5862]

Steve,

Yes, what I'm labeling as fear is a sensation that becomes pretty intense. I don't see anything in there so it seems that the sensation is just trying to prevent me from looking. Is the goal to see through this?

Ty

[blackh]

Ty,

The goal is to see what's there. I bet you expected me to say that in retrospect. You'll be sick of me by the end of this. :)

The question was, Can you see anything in this deep hole? Your answer was, "I don't see anything in there." Could this whole thing be simpler than you supposed?


Steve

[Seahawks5862]

Steve,

No...I appreciate how much time you're spending on me. There is definitely nothing there on the other side of "fear". Where do we go from here...lol

What am I missing so this relationship with the head will stop? Did u have similar issues?

Ty

[blackh]

Ty,

You're doing great! Now, please answer all the questions below.

So there are feelings + thoughts + 5 senses, and when you look between and behind them... nothing.

So, on your travels so far, apart from the content of thoughts, have you seen any sign of a self? Did you find any sign of a "you" entity that produces the thoughts that appear, or causes the actions of the body? Or do they just arise seemingly out of nowhere?

Also, earlier when you were doing the exercise of looking at a view, you looked for the seer and didn't find one.

Could there be an invisible self? There is seeing but there is no seer. Could there be a self hidden somewhere behind the seeing? Is there a soul?

Can you find any sign of a self outside the content of thought?


Steve

[blackh]

Ty,

What am I missing so this relationship with the head will stop? Did u have similar issues?

I'll wait for your next reply then address this one.


Steve

[Seahawks5862]

Steve,

I haven't found any evidence of a self except through thought. The actions of the body seem to come out of nowhere. In all honesty there is something directing my actions. An invisible soul is a possibility even though there isn't any way of identifying it.

Ty

[blackh]

Ty,

Great work.

In all honesty there is something directing my actions.

There are actions, and there are thoughts that seem to relate to them, and the actions form observable patterns of behaviour.

There certainly appears to be something directing them. Please answer these questions:

• What do you know about the cause of bodily actions?
• Is it you?

An invisible soul is a possibility even though there isn't any way of identifying it.

Yes, it is a possibility. But is there any evidence for it?

If you want to prove the existence of something invisible, then you need to infer its existence from effects on things that are visible. For example, I have never seen Argentina, and I can't remember ever meeting anyone who claims to have been there. But, the stories and images of it paint quite a consistent picture. So it seems reasonable to conclude that it exists.

It's actually impossible to prove that something doesn't exist. It could be there somewhere. It could be able to move, and hide wherever you don't look. But there comes a time, when you have searched for something long enough, and your search has never turned up any evidence for it whatsoever, that you have to say... well, evidence may come, but for now, it probably doesn't exist.

What am I missing so this relationship with the head will stop? Did u have similar issues?

I was mostly identified with the thoughts and not so much with the body, and I definitely had trouble with it.

So, what's missing? Well, for now you said you're happy that you haven't found evidence of self except through thought, so let's look at thought some more.

Questions - please answer these ones:

• Is the content of thought real?
• What can a thought do?
• Can a thought think?

Steve

[Seahawks5862]

Steve,

I know bodily actions happen but there is no evidence as to whom or why they happen.

No...the thought of content isn't real

This is tricky because in my experience it seems that a thought can be useful for remembering things, figuring out a problem, constantly bringing up things that I'd like to not remember.

No a thought cannot think
Ty

[blackh]

Ty,

This is tricky because in my experience it seems that a thought can be useful for remembering things, figuring out a problem, constantly bringing up things that I'd like to not remember.

So, I'll ask you to think carefully about what I'm saying here and make sure I am basically correct:

• When working out a problem, there's a stream of thoughts that appear to be related to each other.
• Remembering is a kind of thought (whether the memory is wanted or not).

We may need to look at these in more detail. We can come back to this later if necessary.

So maybe thoughts can appear to be related to each other. But is it fair to say in these examples that all thoughts do is contain information?

Now, there does seem to be a relationship between thoughts and the body. For example, with fear, there is a thought that says "danger" and a bodily sensation in the stomach and other areas. In the case of fear, they happen at the same time, so there must be a relationship between the two.

Can you see in general what the relationship is between thoughts and the body - both in terms of actions and of sensations? Think of common situations and see what you come up with. You don't need to spend too long on this for now. Try to keep it simple: I just want you to get a basic idea of it. It might help simplify if you just lump emotions and thoughts together and just treat them as different kinds of thoughts.

So a very rough summary of what thoughts can do:

• They can present information.
• Maybe they can influence bodily sensations. Is this true? Can you find an example?
• Maybe they can influence bodily actions. Is this true? Can you find an example?
• They can't think. That is, they might have content that is related to other thoughts, but they're not "alive" by themselves.

And finally...

You have so far not found any sign of "you" outside thought content, right? So "I" only exists - as far as you have discovered - as thought content. Thoughts just arise - there's no "you" that you've found at the source that is producing them. Thoughts aren't living, thinking beings. All they can do is present information, and maybe the body responds to some of this information. (This is for you to investigate.)

So where's the self? That is, where is "your" involvement in this? There are apparent causes and effects operating, but can any of the causes be identified as "your will"? It's got to be there somewhere, right? Check everything I've said. Am I wrong somewhere?

I've got to go to bed now, so I'll leave you to look at all that and catch you tomorrow.


Steve

[Seahawks5862]

OK sleep well Steve,

Absolutely thoughts only contain info. Yes of course...thoughts and emotions only effect the body.

If a thought is funny it can cause laughter. The sensation of laughter then the action.

I'm gonna look at the rest of the questions later today. I really need to see clearly that there is no ME in any of this, but right now it's more intellectual. So I'm gonna sit with for awhile and get back cf k to u.

Thanks,

Ty

I don't find my involvement anywhere.