No mistake

[Tigris]

What brings you to Liberation Unleashed?:

I had strong feeling of attraction and resonance after I watched interview at BATGAP yesterday.

What are you looking for? What do you expect from this?:

I am interested to go through process and see what will happen. I think I have glimpses but I keep loosing them.

What is your background in terms of seeking and inquiry?:

Trascendental meditation
Yoga in daily life
School of The Work from Byron Katie
And reading books from: Nisargadatta Maharaj, Eckhart Tolle, Byron Katie, Jeff Foster, Tony Parsons, David Carse, Jed McKenna etc.

How ready are you to question your beliefs about who you are and see the truth no matter what? On a scale from one to ten (ten being most ready). : 10

[ElPortal]

Hi there, welcome to LU and thanks for your initial answers there.

Before we see whether I can accompany you in this exploration, let's just be clear about one thing: this is about seeing through any separate self. It is not about getting into any new state, but it's solely about seeing what already IS, always has been and can only ever be. Is that clear and is that what you are up for?

Cheers

Mark

[Tigris]

Hi Mark, thank you for your welcoming.

Absolutely, that is clear. I am not looking for permanent bliss or any other specific state.

Cheers

Tigris

[ElPortal]

Hi there Tigris, and thanks for that.
(Is Tigris your name and the name you would like me to address you as?)

Before we go further let's just clear up some basic housework around having a dialogue here:-

A few quick guidelines before we go further: please look to post regularly (at least every other day) or post to say if a break is needed. Please set aside any other teachings (including reading, listening to talks etc) and spiritual practices during our inquiry together (other than a daily meditation or yoga). Please give all your attention to this investigation. I am not here to teach or coach you, I will ask questions: your agreement is to LOOK, and to answer from firsthand direct experience in this moment, rather than from intellectually trying to work anything out. OK?

If you could confirm that you have read the LU disclaimer, here: http://www.liberationunleashed.com/
and the article on direct experience, here: http://liberationunleashed.com/articles ... xperience/
and that you would still like me to guide you - then we shall continue!

Cheers

Mark

PS it could be useful to know which time zone you are in. I am in continental Europe (France).

[Tigris]

Hi Mark, it is ok for me, you can call me Tigris.

Thank you for basic guidelines, I see them really as useful.
I'll give my best to LOOK, and to answer from, as you said, firsthand direct experience.
Until this moment I didn't get any impuls to go and read others posts in this forum. So I have no any idea what the proces you are going to guide me looks like. Is that OK with you?

I've already read LU disclaimer before signing up, and now I read the article on direct experience and it is beautifully wrote. Never before I had a chanse to read something so clear. Thnx.

And yes, I would like to be guided by you, if that is ok with you.

Cheers

Tigris

We should be in the same time zone, GMT+1 (Croatia).

[ElPortal]

Hi Tigris

Thanks for that response.

So I have no any idea what the proces you are going to guide me looks like. Is that OK with you?

That is just perfect! So how this works is that I ask you questions and you respond honestly, noting first what actual sensations arise in your body (I am even more interested in this part than in the actual answers to the questions). Ok?

Let's try this out with a short exercise: just sit quietly for about 2 minutes and simply notice everything that is experenced. Note them down in a list.
Now, when the 2 minutes are over, carefully read through your list and after each item add either (E) or (T). (E) is for whatever is directly experienced via the senses (eg 'a coffee smell (E)', or 'a car-engine sound (E)'). (T) is to be added after anything which is thought-based: this includes any mental assumptions, mind wandering in imagination, memories, speculations,mental commentary of any kind, interpretations, beliefs, descriptions, mental explanations, worries about tomorrow eg 'the thought that the electricity bill must be paid by next weekend (T)'.
Then let me have your list.

Cheers

Mark

[Tigris]

Hi Mark,

Here is my list:

sound of the birds singing (E)
sound of the fridge motor (E)
sound - voice of my husband talking to the cat (E)
sound of the wooden floor while my husband is walking (E)
thought - should I stop now and write this down (T)
thought - no I will remember it, I would'n like to stop it (T)
thought - what actually Mark wrote to me (T)

Then I stop and went to see your post, and then continuing.

movings of my breath (E)
tension in my eye lids, and their movements (E)
sound of dog licking himself (E)
Am I seating already to long, and again I am not writing, but I will remember, two minutes - it is short time (T)
sound of birds singing (E)
sound and feeling of my breath (E)
feeling of the body touching the chair (E)
now, I will stop (T)

[ElPortal]

HI Tigris

Excellent! Thanks for that.

I have put the whole list together in one for reference.

sound of the birds singing (E)
sound of the fridge motor (E)
sound - voice of my husband talking to the cat (E)
sound of the wooden floor while my husband is walking (E)
thought - should I stop now and write this down (T)
thought - no I will remember it, I would'n like to stop it (T)
thought - what actually Mark wrote to me (T)
movings of my breath (E)
tension in my eye lids, and their movements (E)
sound of dog licking himself (E)
Am I seating already to long, and again I am not writing, but I will remember, two minutes - it is short time (T)
sound of birds singing (E)
sound and feeling of my breath (E)
feeling of the body touching the chair (E)
now, I will stop (T)

A) Now, I would like you to rewrite the list please, doing the following.
Wherever there is (T), rewrite it as follows "the thought: '...' (T)" , so for example the last one will become "the thought: 'now, I will stop' (T)"
Wherever there is an (E) really all the words are labellings and descriptions which we have to allow in order to communicate with each other, don't we? But just for this exercise please try to 1.) rephrase all the (E)'s so that any solid object becomes an adjective/descriptive phrase eg "sound of birds singing (E)" might become "birdy-singing sound (E)". (maybe you'll have to make up new words for this!). And 2) in the (E)'s wherever there is any '1' or 'my' or 'me' rewrite the phrase without those, so for example "sound and feeling of my breath (E)" might become "breathy sound and feeling (E)" or "sound and feeling of breathing here (E)" etc.

B) Have fun, and let me have your re-phrased list. Please let me know whether, when you read through the list, it feels any different from the original list. How?

C) Now, is anything listed in the (E)s actually a thought? (interpretation, commentary, description, mental analysis etc)? If so, please let me have a list of anything like this.

Cheers

Mark

[Tigris]

Hi Mark,

thank you for reply.

Here is re-phrased list:

birdy-singing sound ---sound of the birds singing (E)

fridgy-engine sound ----sound of the fridge motor (E)

husbandy-voice sound while catytalk----sound - voice of my husband talking to the cat (E)

wooden - floory sound while husbandly walking --- sound of the wooden floor while my husband is walking (E)

the thought: should I stop now and write this down (T)
the thought: no I will remember it, I would'n like to stop it (T)
the thought: what actually Mark wrote to me (T)

breathy movings --- movings of my breath (E)

eyelidy tension, and eyelidy movements ---- tension in my eye lids, and their movements (E)

dogy-licking sound --- sound of dog licking himself (E)

the thought: Am I seating already to long, and again I am not writing, but I will remember, two minutes - it is short time (T)

birdy-singing sound --- sound of birds singing (E)

breathy sound and brathy feeling --- sound and feeling of my breath (E)

bodytochingly feeling ---- feeling of the body touching the chair (E)

the thought: now, I will stop (T)

Mark, this was not easy to me, but more because of english language. Anyhow I could say - I had fun...
I am not sure what you will understand from my re-phrased list.

I translated it to my mother tongue to get a better filling...
Yes, definitely sounds differently.
It does not sounds so solid, it is more like flowing. And without "I" and "me" sounds non personal. Lighter.

C) I am not sure that I understand what you are asking me.

I think that it is all actually a thought. At the moment I received it (one by one), it was pure sensation, but then in order to communicate it I had to gave them a name, word, o interpret it. Or?

Cheers

Tigris

[ElPortal]

Hi Tigris

Great work... and glad you had fun. The language is great: please don't worry about that!

Mark: C) Now, is anything listed in the (E)s actually a thought? (interpretation, commentary, description, mental analysis etc)? If so, please let me have a list of anything like this.
Tigris: C) I am not sure that I understand what you are asking me.
I think that it is all actually a thought. At the moment I received it (one by one), it was pure sensation, but then in order to communicate it I had to gave them a name, word, o interpret it. Or?

Sounds quite good: let's take an example and look more deeply at that:-

husbandy-voice sound while catytalk----sound - voice of my husband talking to the cat (E)

Try to call up this memory into the present moment (or if you can't do that then choose another one which is happening now).
There are sensations which seem to be hearing sensations, yes? Do the sensations feel alive?
Now, the description 'husbandy', 'voice' and 'the cat' try to comment (T) on the sensation, yes? To label (T) it, to explain (T) it, yes?
When all those descriptions and labels and explanations are taken away, what is left (E)? Can it truly find any description at all? Please try as best you can to describe what is left, even though it will probably be difficult (impossible?).

Cheers

Mark

[Tigris]

Hi Mark, thanks a lot.

All day I am with the subject about we are talking...

There are sensations which seem to be hearing sensations, yes?
Yes.

Do the sensations feel alive?
Yes.

Now, the description 'husbandy', 'voice' and 'the cat' try to comment (T) on the sensation, yes? To label (T) it, to explain (T) it, yes?
Yes.

When all those descriptions and labels and explanations are taken away, what is left (E)?
Nothing is left. It is gone forever. At that moment - was just that what was, not possible to put in words.

Can it truly find any description at all?
No.

Please try as best you can to describe what is left, even though it will probably be difficult (impossible?).

Hmm... Nothing is left. It came and it's gone.
Sorry, I can't find any description.
Only memories, labels and explanations, which are thoughts, happening in this moment.

Cheers

Tigris

I have to see how to quote you...will be easier for reading.

[ElPortal]

Hi Tigris

Thanks for those responses. Great that you are giving this lots of attention: this is just what is needed.

Mark: Do the sensations feel alive?
Tigris: Yes.

Mark: When all those descriptions and labels and explanations are taken away, what is left (E)?
Tigris: Nothing is left. It is gone forever. At that moment - was just that what was, not possible to put in words

So when the labels are taken away, is not the 'aliveness' of the sensation still there, but without any label?
Please now over the next 24 hours, as you go about your day, just notice all the happenings of the day and for yourself notice as often as possible all the (E) and all the (T). Notice the sensations (E) behind any thoughts and labels.

For your next exercise for me I would like you to look again at the list of expectations which can arise over 'liberation':-

1. This is not a way to escape your daily life.
2. This is not about gaining something extra, becoming something special.
3. This is not about cultivating an altered state of consciousness.
4. This is not a trick of the mind, or twisting the mind into believing certain thoughts.
5. This is not about gaining a particular bit of knowledge.
6. This is not about having a certain thought or sequence of thoughts.
7. This is not about becoming a holy, good, moral or better person.
8. This is not a belief, religion, or a philosophy, it not magical or mystical.
9. This is not going to lead you to eternal peace and happiness, it is not about happiness.
10. This is not about freedom from emotions and intense feelings.
11. This is not about getting rid of self, ego, I.
12. This is not a solution to problems in relationships.
13. This is not a way to get free of depression or other diseases.
14. This is not about stopping thoughts, changing thoughts, getting rid of thoughts.
15. This is not a way to make the story of you disappear.
16. This is not about convincing you of anything.
17. This is not something that will lead to accumulation of money or things.
18. This is not a self improvement program.

I am not asking you to discuss them with me rationally. Instead what I would like you to do is to pause for a few moments over each statement, considering it, and just notice any sensations (E) which arise. If nothing arises that is ok, move on to the next one. Just notice and note down any reactions (E) in detail (what does it feel like, position in the body, shape, colour, any explanation or commentary (T) that arises. Stay with ithe sensation itself for a while, see whether it moves or changes or goes. Then let me have a list.

No hurry: spend time with this, Tigris.

Cheers

Mark

[ElPortal]

PS here is an article about how to use the Quote function:-

http://liberationunleashed.com/nation/v ... ?f=4&t=660

M

[Tigris]

Hi Mark,

Thank you very very much.

"Great that you are giving this lots of attention: this is just what is needed. "

I have no other choice.
It is alive and strong, and it comes in vawes, and when comes, it's like some strong smell from which you can't escape. Then is gone. Like falling back to sleep after first opening eyes first time in the morning. Then come back. Not thinking, thoughts are sometimes just a kind of trigger.

One thought stroke me this night.
Wait, maybe Mark asked me what left, not from E, because E is gone in that very moment, but after that.
This I "know", but have no idea how to put it in the words.

Then, I've read your post:

"So when the labels are taken away, is not the 'aliveness' of the sensation still there, but without any label?"

And yes I could agree with. And when I "see" this what you called 'aliveness'...no, I am not see this, it is. No idea how to.....
Like ones I tried to explain to somebody how to see 3D picture. I don't know what I do, to make this, kind of shift from normal perception of the picture to the 3D. And I was not able to explain.

Mark, I "feel" that "background" in which everything is coming and going, doesn't matter what, (E) or (T).

And, I remember your first post, and your quest to clear the thing about the state.
And I answered very quickly - No, I understand it is not a state...Even I used the word 'absolutely'...having on my mind this state of bliss or peace for which I have seeking for years. Can't say mistakenly any more, but I was in a big confusion about all this staff.

And maybe, now I see, I am still... maybe still seaking ... for sure it is more pleasant not to be under the pressure of mind and all the unpleasant stories which sometimes arises.

Will see, I am going to see next exercise .... , and I'll not hurry .... just wanted to share with you what I tried to describe above.

Cheers

Tigris

P.S. I tried to select text which I wanted to quote, pressed the button "quote", but nothing happened...then I put it in the bold.

[ElPortal]

Hi Tigris

Thank you for your honesty.

I look forward to receiving your response to the 'expectations' experiment, once you have full time to give it proper consideration.

Cheers

Mark

PS If you can put text in bold then you can put it just as easily in

quote

... just instead of pressing 'B' at the top, press 'Quote'. To check how I will see it, just press the 'preview' button at the bottom (then don't forget to go back to the editor screen).