Can't tell if I've seen through the illusion

[blackh]

Ty,

The effort to move to grab the cup is being confused as a "me" doing it.

You're doing really well at this!

Look at the cup. It's a cup, right? Now pick it up and look at the bodily sensation that goes with the action. It's you doing it, right? :)


Steve

[Seahawks5862]

Steve,

Thank u...this is confusing.

I did this several times and there are no bodily sensations felt.

Ahh...I guess the obvious of touch and feeling of the cup.

Thanks,

Ty

[blackh]

Ty,

I'm trying to hint at something. I'll be explicit.

If you close your eyes and move your arm around, without it touching anything, you can feel it moving. This is called proprioception. So even before you touch the cup, you can feel the body reaching for it.

When you look at the cup, the concept of "cup" will pop into your mind you just know it's a cup.

So, how do you know it's a cup? Because your mother told you that when you were small, and later in life you found that 1. everyone's mother had told them the same thing, 2. the concept was useful.

When you reach for the cup, you will get a sensation of proprioception and touch when your hand comes in contact with the cup. It feels like "I am doing this."

So, how do you know that "I am doing this"? Could it have something to do with what your mother told you when you were small?


Steve

[Seahawks5862]

Steve,

I don't think my message went through. I get what you're pointing at. I'm off to bed but I really need to sit with this tomorrow. Obviously the cup has no feelings, emotions and such attached to it so those are the things that are tough right now. Sorry if it's not that obvious to me right now but I will Look tomorrow.

Thanks again,

Ty

[blackh]

Ty,

You're doing great, don't worry.

So let's just go back to the question and state it clearly, because it's a good question: You pick up a cup and it feels like you are doing it. How do you know that you are doing it?

So we'll leave you with the task of finding the answer to this question, and go on to other things. Just remember that the primary technique is to look in experience. Take what I said in the previous post as a possibility only.

Here is an exercise that might help shed some light on it:

Put your hand out in front of you, palm down. At a certain point in time it will flip over to reveal the palm. Watch it carefully. Do you know when it will happen? Did you make it happen? See if you can identify all the processes involved. This is a little tricky, this one. You will need to repeat it many times and watch like a hawk.


Steve

[Seahawks5862]

Steve,

OK...for the first task I reached for the cup several times and although there's a familiar feeling there is no evidence that a "me" had anything to do with it.

For the second task the same results we're true. It felt like something foreign was flipping the hand but at the same time the mind wanted to claim the activity.

In both of these activities I know this is no me but it did feel like if there was a location of a me it be as "watching".

Thanks,

Ty

[blackh]

Ty,

It felt like something foreign was flipping the hand but at the same time the mind wanted to claim the activity.

Nice work! That describes exactly how I felt in my guiding. In non-duality circles the word "claiming" is often used to describe this thing that the mind does.

In case you're interested, there was a subtlety in my instruction. I worded it in such a way that I didn't actually tell you to do it. I told you what was going to happen. Obviously if whatever it is that makes the body act had not "wanted" to follow the instructions it wouldn't have. But how does this work? Was there anything involved that you could call "free will"? Was there a Ty that chose to initiate the exercise? Or is that just more claiming?

In your daily activities, just look at what is really going on without being distracted by the thought narrative, which is just an opinion about what is happening.

Obviously the cup has no feelings, emotions and such attached to it so those are the things that are tough right now.

This earlier comment of yours made a metaphor for this process pop into my head:

The mind creates a complex maze and we feel lost in it. But we don't need to find the way out. Actually there is no way out. And, the maze won't just go away. So does this mean we are trapped? No - all we need to do is see that the walls of the maze aren't real. Just recognizing that thought content is fictional is all you need to do. ALL thought content.

In both of these activities I know this is no me but it did feel like if there was a location of a me it be as "watching".

Yes, clearly there is some kind of awareness going on, so let's look at that.

Find something to look at. I find the view out the window good for this exercise. Enjoy looking at it. Is there an "I" doing the seeing, or is there just seeing?

While seeing this view, turn your attention to the seer. What is there?

Can you think of a reason why the mind is less able to claim seeing than hand motion? There isn't necessarily a definitive answer to this so don't worry too much, but the investigation might be worth making.

If it helps, there's a variation on this exercise that you could try, as follows:

Sit comfortably, close your eyes, and get into a meditative, relaxed state. Now open your eyes. Immediately after opening your eyes, can you find an "I" that is seeing?


Steve

[Seahawks5862]

Steve,
Lol...I love the subtlety. I had to read this a few times, but u told me what would happen and it did. There's know words to explain what happened. I'm going to go through this a few more times and let it sink in more.

As I look out, there is only seeing until a label is put on it.

There isn't a seer just a lable saying there is.

Seeing seems effortless compared to the hand motions.

The label of I comes in a second or two after the eyes are open.

Thanks,

Ty

[blackh]

Ty,

We've been going through this really quickly and we've covered the most important stuff. This process works at its own speed. It can't be forced. So we might need to take it a bit more gently for the moment and let you assimilate what we've done. So let's take stock of the situation, and then we can start going over things more slowly.

How are you doing generally?
Is there any fear, confusion, or frustration? I'd be surprised if there wasn't some confusion.
Where are you at with the sense of "I" in the head and anywhere else it might be?
Do you feel different from when we started this dialogue only 4 days ago?
Is there anything that isn't making sense? (Of course there are some things that are not supposed to make sense.)


Steve

[Seahawks5862]

Steve,

I've been super busy so I'm not sure...lol. I definitely feel different than I did 4 days ago but I still get caught up in life's stories.

Every thing makes sense it's just the speed of life can take over sometimes.

Thanks,

Ty

[Seahawks5862]

Steve,

I'm not feeling any fear but confusion is still there. I'm guessing the movement of the body is still confusing. It still feels so personal but maybe that's something that isn't supposed to be figured out...

It seems like if I slow down and focus there is no "I" but if the gets busy it seems like the "I" is running the show.

Thanks,

Ty

[blackh]

Hi Ty,

As long as you can still function in your daily tasks, what does it matter whether you are confused or not? It's good to be confused about what you are seeing, because it means the mind is temporarily out of the way. I got confusion during guiding and still do.

So when the body moves, it feels personal. So the question is, is it personal, or does it just feel that way?

I am not sure if you got this before, so I'll be repetitive. You've seen that if you look at an object, the mind produces a conceptual knowing about what it is. Often there are emotions attached. This knowing consists of things you've learnt about the object. What you've learnt about an object could be complete nonsense, but this makes no difference to the mind. It's just doing its job, producing this knowing. The content of this knowing then becomes the false reality you live in. The "reality" you experience consists not of what is really there, but of cup, chair, cupboard, toaster and door and a multitude of concepts surrounding those objects.

You've also seen that when the body moves, the mind claims it as "I am doing it". Could this claiming be the exact same process as the labelling mechanism? The sight of a cup is labelled "cup". Could the proprioception and touch of bodily motion be getting labelled in the same way? Do these feelings of "I am doing this" produce an apparent reality that is personal, along with "personal" emotions?

Is this "personal" feeling real? The only way through this is to keep looking at it. Try different actions and see if you notice any differences. You already found that seeing feels less like there's an "I" doing it. What about other senses and other bodily actions?

It seems like if I slow down and focus there is no "I" but if the gets busy it seems like the "I" is running the show.

Thanks, that's to be expected but helpful to know. The real question is, are you running the show?

---

Please keep just telling me where you are at for now. That'll help things to settle and help me see what to concentrate on.


Steve

[Seahawks5862]

Steve,

Yes...when u talked about the cup being a label it became very clear that we are living in a complete fantasy land made up of labels. Everything is made up of our own interpretation of what each label means to us. However, that's not reality. A cup or anything err else for that matter is so much more than just a label.

[blackh]

Ty,

I have a task for you, then:

Take a survey of direct experience to find out what's there. You can simplify this by closing your eyes and taking sight as read. Just have a really good look and make a list of all the different elements/components of experience. Look everywhere you can look. Also look into the core of your being and see what is there. Don't go into detail about any one thing. I just want an overview, but try to make it exhaustive. Really look around.

I'll get you started: thoughts (no need to enumerate different types of thoughts), sight, sounds, smells, ...

Don't rush with this.


Steve

[Seahawks5862]

Steve,

I want to make sure I'm clear. If I'm looking am I listing what I'm seeing? I'm at work...so computer, books, etc...?

Sounds...bed alarm, nurses speaking etc?

Sorry...I'm a little confused
Ty