Seeking a guide

[Mariquita]

Hello Dridhamati,

Thank you for your reply.

And looking at the sensations, looking at the thoughts, in direct experience, can 'fear' be found in any one of them? Does one particular sensation, or thought, stand out as 'being' fear, or 'causing' fear?

Looking more closely, 'Fear' can't be found 'in' any one of the sensations or thoughts. There's an association; a sensation felt and then the thought 'fear'. Looking really closely, the sensation comes before the labelling. So fear isn't present independent of anything. Fear as a separate entity from the sensation or thought does not exist. I've looked and looked! This is the same for other labels, such as hunger, happiness or tiredness. These don't exist as separate from the sensations and thoughts that make them up. They're a name used to neatly label an experience (some more usefully than others).

Oh, is there a long answer where an 'I, me , mine' can be found in experience? ;-)

Apologies for the short answer to this; it just seemed so clear! Making a cup of tea yesterday, no thoughts, just actions happening. It felt so spacious. Some thoughts were possibly passing by, but unnoted. Then a knowing 'there is no 'me' in this. That knowing phrase surprised me; I had to catch by breath. Then a sense of pulling back, and 'me' came in again. But there was no watcher even, there wasn't a cold detachment or labelling of the making of tea (and increasingly less so).

Is this referencing [to 'I, me, mine'] connected to conventions, usage of speech, that sort of thing? Example: 'I' am eating an apple.
Or is this referencing [to 'I, me, mine'] a view that is still firmly established, that there exists a separate, fixed 'I, me, mine' lurking somewhere, only to reappear at times?

The referencing that I described in the example above is the latter; something that reappears at times. Or like I'm searching hard because I expect it to be lurking somewhere. It feels like a bubble called my name, holding these feelings, sensations, labels, thoughts and I relate to these through the filter of the bubble. As I described, I think this is weakening, I am getting more experiences of it disintegrating, but the bubble hasn't popped!

And is there one single activity performed through the day where an 'I, me, mine' can be found?

There are none. But I'm still looking! Again, a possible belief in one lurking somewhere.

So now, please tell me what this report referred to?
Hint: you nailed it in the 3rd sentence!

Thought is happening. I've looked to see if 'I' control thoughts and there is nothing controlling them. At first I thought there must be, otherwise how would I function? Then it turns out nothing is controlling thought, they're coming and going, stimulated by sensation and habitual patterned thinking. I've looked for the 'I' and I can't find one. As mentioned with the cup of tea example, when there's no thought, things still happen, so I know it's not essential for functioning. But I also see now that 'no thought' spaces are not 'the goal'. Because it's the relationship to thought that is changing, not the thoughts/number of thoughts themselves. I spent a long time thinking I was directing thoughts, that that was how habit was changed, or concentration was reached in meditation. This is not true. That was just thought manipulating thought. The watcher is an expression of that; thought manipulating thought.

Hopefully we can have another exchange before you leave- I look forward to the exercises.
Thank you.
M

[dridhamati]

Hi Mariquita,

Looking more closely, 'Fear' can't be found 'in' any one of the sensations or thoughts. There's an association; a sensation felt and then the thought 'fear'...

Spot on! Really well observed.
So concepts such as fear, hunger, happiness or tiredness can't be found. Indeed, 'they' don't exist.
And how about those things labelled cars, houses, cats, dogs, human beings, I, me, etc? Can they be found 'in' sensations, 'in' experience? Do 'they' exist?

Apologies for the short answer to this; it just seemed so clear!

Just checking here. Thanks for clarifying. :-)

The referencing that I described in the example above is the latter; something that reappears at times...

OK. This is a tricky one, but you know how to look into experience so.
The following questions need to be looked into in direct experience, allow plenty of time to look into sensations. Feel free to use any activity, from that little itch when meditating, to chopping veges, to typing words on the keyboard, etc.
When seeing that there's no such thing as fear, or hunger, is this a 'provisional' statement? Is there an expectation to see fear or hunger appear out of nowhere, sometime?
Is this 'I, me, mine' any different inherently (in its nature), to 'fear', or 'hunger', or 'car', or 'dog' or...?

Lastly (there is no getting more direct than this now): can any 'thing' observed via the senses be said to possess an inherent, separate existence?

I've looked to see if 'I' control thoughts and there is nothing controlling them...

This is great work. Thanks for sharing.

...But I also see now that 'no thought' spaces are not 'the goal'. Because it's the relationship to thought that is changing, not the thoughts/number of thoughts themselves....

Indeed.
Remember the question asked at the beginning of the dialogue, about challenging taboos? It refers to this: the relationship to thoughts.
Thoughts have their rightful place: it is useful to know that fire burns.
But will the 'fire' burn 'me', will 'I' get burnt by the 'fire'?

...That was just thought manipulating thought...

Another great observation.
When there's doubt that there might be an 'I, me, mine' lurking in some dark recess somewhere, just observe the mental processes.

Quite a fair bit of work here. Still, feel free to ask for clarification before I leave. :-)

Cheers
Dridhamati

[Mariquita]

Thanks Dridhamati,

There's some meaty stuff to leave me with there! I'm looking forward to looking deeper into it. I had an initial read of what you wrote and no questions popped up.

So farewell on your retreat; I hope it is what it needs to be.

Thanks again and look forward to being back in touch when you're home and settled.
M

[dridhamati]

Hi Mariquita,

Back from retreat.
I trust all is well with you. Anything to report? :-)

Cheers
Dridhamati

[Mariquita]

Hello Dridhamati,

All is well thank you but I have also been away, for a week, and just got home. I'll be able to report in tomorrow- just wanted to quickly let you know that I'm still here!

Thanks,
M

[Mariquita]

Hello Dridhamati,

In the vein of honesty, I feel like I'm stuck. After the situation while making the tea- where I had to catch my breath after seeing things were just happening- I feel like something has pulled back and I've begun to wrap myself in circles a bit with thoughts such as 'if I'm not here then how does transformation/cultivation/habit change happen?', 'If there's no 'i' then how and why was it decided to start LU?' Or 'why do I feel a connection to Padmasambhava? What is he and who am i that feels it?' Thoughts of 'volition, anxiety, having a hunch, things beyond conceptual understanding' answer these questions, but they feel unsatisfactory.

I've had a full-on week away with a lot of outdoor labour work. While digging, I looked for an 'i' and couldn't find one but again, I don't feel satisfied with that. However, moments happen which pull me back/hit a nerve of something. For example, someone was talking about lucid dreaming and stated innocently 'because we could be dreaming right now' and I physically pulled away from the conversation and felt my heart contract with fear. It had touched a nerve. So something's still going on, in dreams too, and when I wake in the night I see if anything I think/feel etc belongs to 'me', nothing does. But again, this feels unsatisfactory- not deep enough- sort of like the phrases trotted out of 'we're all one' and 'one love' as nice things to say but without experential depth to them.

Sitting around a fire with a group of people, I felt i had less and less to contribute; I could just hear how we were all reasserting our versions of ourselves and the world through recollecting memories, beliefs, appearances etc. I didn't feel resentful or condescending, just like I was watching a strange play that plays day in, day out. How does one see through to truth when so much of the world and relationships are so reaffirming of my identity as me?! Perhaps there's a danger of narcissism here?

I've also had moments- again in sits but also simply in waking life- where memories, beliefs, 'my voice' etc seem like slides from an old fashioned overhead projector; the projector is on and the overheads of 'memory', 'belief', 'reaction', 'habit' and being placed one on top of the other, constantly as a processing/information system. There is no 'me' in this and 'i'm' finding it tricky at times not to resent my mind for doing this, though I know it's just doing what it does, it's not the mind's fault. At times where those OHP slides have stacked up, or I've had lots of thoughts stacking into a story, or even where a watcher has labelled the collection of thoughts, I've tried to locate that watcher/myself. The closest I've come is physical sensations which vary in location, either felt as a sort of metre stick running down my body or as a hard sensation in my forehead/eye area.

So that's a flavour of my couple of weeks really! Below are the answers so far to the questions you asked, though feeling stuck, I haven't focused as specifically on the questions over the 2 weeks as I could've...

And how about those things labelled cars, houses, cats, dogs, human beings, I, me, etc? Can they be found 'in' sensations, 'in' experience? Do 'they' exist?

No, they don't. I have strong experience that they don't with some things more than others, and often unexpectedly. My partner, when he's talking, suddenly perception will change and it's as if I'm seeing his face for the first time, and it's not 'a face', but a series of moving features. And I recognise this feeling towards him of love, but it feels like a familiar collection of pleasant emotions, sensations, memories and thoughts. I also see it frequently with cars; how ridiculous they look! I think a week in a field away from a lot of everyday objects helped with this process. But then I get immersed again, the objects become blobs of labels again and I wonder if I really saw anything different (though I know I did)!

When seeing that there's no such thing as fear, or hunger, is this a 'provisional' statement? Is there an expectation to see fear or hunger appear out of nowhere, sometime?
Is this 'I, me, mine' any different inherently (in its nature), to 'fear', or 'hunger', or 'car', or 'dog' or...?

I think this varies. At times, it feels completely without ownership. That feels free and true. But at other times (and I couldn't say for sure which is more frequent at the moment) it's a provisional statement- a thought comes quickly of 'oh, here's fear again, I feel scared'. Or 'I'm hungry', which I believe, rather than feeling hunger is a set of sensations in which 'I'm' not involved. I know these states are no different than if they were to be 'i, me,or mine', but it feels like I'm still making it a personal matter a lot of the time. My hunger, my fear, my seeking, my joy.

Lastly (there is no getting more direct than this now): can any 'thing' observed via the senses be said to possess an inherent, separate existence?

No. But I think my to-ing and fro-ing I described above shows I'm still dubious and searching for 'something', or still making it personal at times.

Thoughts have their rightful place: it is useful to know that fire burns.
But will the 'fire' burn 'me', will 'I' get burnt by the 'fire'?

At the moment, I feel like I'm still getting burnt, but less so. But replacing the burnt feeling is perhaps a feeling of ambivalence (or leaning towards narcissism as I mentioned?)

When there's doubt that there might be an 'I, me, mine' lurking in some dark recess somewhere, just observe the mental processes.

Still working with this...!

Thank you again for your help. This is a long post, so obviously take any time needed to respond. Great you're back and still up for helping me out of my pickle!

M

[Mariquita]

*in the above, I meant nihilism, not narcissism!

[dridhamati]

Hi Mariquita,

Thanks for the long post, and for the honesty. Great working material!

Now my turn to be honest. Everything in your post comes down to this:
1. Is seeing the delusion of the fixed separate entity of 'I, me, mine', a new belief?
Or,
2. Is it a deep unshakable realisation, which at times gets obscured by habitual patterns of behaviour?

In other words: could I convince you with clever logic that there is a fixed entity referred to as 'Mariquita', separate from this other fixed entity referred to as 'Dridhamati', or 'Joe Bloggs', or...

Please answer this from carefully looking into times of 'certainty', as well as times of 'doubt'.
Then we can look again at the long post and see if it's still relevant. ;-)

Cheers
Dridhamati

[Mariquita]

Hello Dridhamati,

No, you couldn't convince me. There's just no way I can be a fixed, separate entity; nothing going on here in this body and mind is static, consistent or unique to 'me'. My specific memories, experiences and chemistry mean I experience the world and everything/one in it in a particular way but none of it belongs to a 'me' and everyone else is experiencing their versions of the same things. Nothing holds deeply constant apart from the awareness of this. Sometimes a sense of a 'me' starts getting involved and wrapped up in her storyline but looking at the circumstances this happens in and the content, it's only habitual patterns, schemas and lines. When awareness of that comes into play, it drops away and looks silly. Then I smile at it all!

Cheers,
M

[dridhamati]

Hi Mariquita,

...Sometimes a sense of a 'me' starts getting involved and wrapped up in her storyline but looking at the circumstances this happens in and the content, it's only habitual patterns, schemas and lines. When awareness of that comes into play, it drops away and looks silly. Then I smile at it all!

Haha! The magic show no longer has a hold eh? :-)
Thank you for this. Reading this brings so much joy.

In view of this last report above, is there any part of that long post of April 17th that you feel needs particular attention?

Doubt is the greatest 'enemy' here. It often manifests as fear.
But as you observed: “a sense of a 'me' starts getting involved and wrapped up in her storyline...” and before that “that was just thought manipulating thought...”
So here is a little exercise that might help allay doubt and fear.
Please recall a dream you might have had where a 'you' was doing X, Y and Z, and interacting with 'other people', and 'objects.'
Now: what makes this 'reality' any more real than that dream you recalled?

Wonderful!

Cheers
Dridhamati

[Mariquita]

Hello Dridhamati,

In view of this last report above, is there any part of that long post of April 17th that you feel needs particular attention?

No, it doesn't seem so, they all seem to have resolved themselves.

Please recall a dream you might have had where a 'you' was doing X, Y and Z, and interacting with 'other people', and 'objects.'
Now: what makes this 'reality' any more real than that dream you recalled?

This is something I've struggled with since I was a child! I had to look really closely because I've had occassions where dreams have been so real, it's taken a while to establish they didn't happen in waking life. So after looking, the only difference I found is that the quality of sensation is deeper in waking life; objects appear crisper visually, writing is readable, there is continuity of time. But storylines exist in both, emotions exist in both and a false sense of ' This is Me' exist in both. When I wake from a dream and realise it was a dream, there's the same sense of 'ahhhhhh' as when awareness shows that the storylines and layers of memories in waking life are just playing out, nothing's bad or wrong, that's just what happens in waking life.

Cheers and I'm pleased you felt joyful!
M

[dridhamati]

Hi Mariquita,

No, it doesn't seem so, they all seem to have resolved themselves.

Great. :-)

So after looking, the only difference I found is that the quality of sensation is deeper in waking life; objects appear crisper visually, writing is readable, there is continuity of time.

Hmm. And do these discrepancies not happen in 'waking life'? For example, try and remember an object, a newspaper print, even a touch from a few days back.
Do they all appear as crisp and vibrant as they did when first experienced?

...But storylines exist in both, emotions exist in both and a false sense of ' This is Me' exist in both. When I wake from a dream and realise it was a dream, there's the same sense of 'ahhhhhh' as when awareness shows that the storylines and layers of memories in waking life are just playing out, nothing's bad or wrong, that's just what happens in waking life.

Yep, that's the point.

Here are a couple more exercises.

The first one deals with the body:
- bring the right hand in front of the eyes.
- look attentively at the hand, form a mental image of the hand, based on what is seen.
- now rest the hand, palm down on the table and close the eyes.
- observe the sensations received via the sense of touch.
- now form a mental image of the hand, based only on what is felt through the contact hand-table.
- compare the two mental images.
What image best corresponds to the hand? And why?

And the second with authorship:
- stand in a room, away from furniture.
- let the arms down along the body.
- now think “I am raising the right arm.” - Does the right arm move?
- then think “I am raising the left arm.” - Does the left arm move?
Repeat a few times with either arm, and see what happens.

I'm pleased you felt joyful!

That's the joy at seeing the veil lifting.

Cheers
Dridhamati

[Mariquita]

Hello Dridhamati,

Just a quick check in: I've been moving house, I'll be able to reply fully to the above tomorrow.

Thanks,
M

[dridhamati]

Hi Mariquita,

Happy moving! And enjoy your new abode. :-)

Cheers
Dridhamati

[Mariquita]

Hello Dridhamati,

Hmm. And do these discrepancies not happen in 'waking life'? For example, try and remember an object, a newspaper print, even a touch from a few days back.
Do they all appear as crisp and vibrant as they did when first experienced?

No, they really don't. I've been noticing that with all the senses, not just sight, that so much gets lost- not even fully experienced. Trees appear as a mass of green blobs at the side of the road, key words are heard in a conversation or a nearby conversation infiltrates and distracts from the conversation at hand. Relationships or mood doesn't always feel 'crisp and vibrant' either.

What image best corresponds to the hand? And why?

The image of the felt sensation on the surface best corresponds. Because when I held my hand up to look at it, thoughts immediately started a story; about my nail varnish, about the story behind a scratch, about my age. And the visual perception felt unsteady, sort of like the first exercise with the mug; a to and fro-ing between it perceived as simply an object, which looked so alien, to trying to perceive it's depth, put it in context to the background behind it etc. Whereas with the felt experience on the surface, there was more substance to the experience. Again, it wasn't stable, sensations were changing continuously, but the mental image was based more on quality of contact, pressure, felt sensation than on a story.

Repeat a few times with either arm, and see what happens.

Well firstly, the arms didn't raise! I had a mental image of 'me' and 'my arms' raising at a couple of points, but they didn't raise. it just felt like an empty phrase really. There didn't feel like any impetus behind it.

Cheers and the move is going...!
M