Request to be guided

[tfarrah]

Are you ready for the final questions?

Yes.

[Ghata]

Dear Terry,

sweet :-).

Here they are:

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Do you decide, intend, choose, control events in Life? Do you make anything happen? Please try to describe the process as best you can, even if gropingly. Don't forget to give some practical examples from your everyday experience (even if there is no real 'you) What are you responsible for?"

6) Anything to add?

Please answer in full, when ready.

Much love,
Ghata

[tfarrah]

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

No.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

A habit is in place, apparently instituted in early childhood, whereby, every second or so, a small physical contraction takes place in the right side of the mouth and throat, and, at the same time, the word "I", "me", or "my" appears in thought, usually with some further story regarding the fictional entity "I". The stories typically place this entity in a role of agency, saying "I did this" or "I am going to do that". The stories correspond somewhat to perceived reality--for example, it is not uncommon that the thought arises, "I am going to do this," and then the deed is perceived to actually be done--and this supports the illusion. When the thought arises, "I am going to do this," and then the deed is not perceived to be done, a story often arises to explain why, allowing the illusion to persist. Somehow, the combination of a specific sensation, a label ("I", etc.), and a story, creates a sense of an entity with agency.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

Emotions pass more quickly. When a sense of "I" arises, it is quickly seen as thought + sensation. Thoughts, stories, pass more quickly through awareness; they are let go of more quickly.

Before I started this dialogue, I was sure that self was an illusion. I was sure there was no self. It just didn't make any sense to me that there could be. All the evidence pointed toward no-self, including all of my experience and all reason. Yet, a felt sense of self remained, and I observed my actions to be driven by a desire to create a pleasing self-image. Therefore I requested a guide.

Through this dialog and the associated exercises, I have see more directly than before, and in more detail, how the illusion of self operates. I have also seen directly that when it seems there is control, there is no control. The shift does not seem like a quantum difference from before, but a deepening of understanding and a reinforcement of a perspective that already existed.

The sense of self remains and seemingly has the same character, and actions are still driven by a desire to create a pleasing self-image, though less so.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

I'm not sure when seeing happened. It seemed gradual over the course of this entire 8 week inquiry. It is possible that seeing was clear early on, but that expectations were getting in the way of recognizing the fact. As I said earlier, possibly the most significant obstacle was concern about this "sense of self". I thought the sense should disappear or be seen clearly 100% of the time. It is still present as much as before, and is still prominent in attention, but it is seen that it is just sensation+thought.

5) Do you decide, intend, choose, control events in Life? Do you make anything happen? Please try to describe the process as best you can, even if gropingly. Don't forget to give some practical examples from your everyday experience (even if there is no real 'you) What are you responsible for?"

There is no ME to decide, intend, choose, or control events in life. Here is an illustration: Just now, "I" began typing the answer to this question. At about the same time, a story arose in my mind, "I should be preparing my big talk for tomorrow, but instead I will answer these questions. It seems like a more interesting thing to do. But it is wrong; I should be preparing the talk." Just now an additional thought arose that supports the story: "I am going to be in trouble if/when my boss realizes I am doing this at work." Along with the thought arose images of dire consequences and bodily sensations of fear. The story is very vivid, much more so than a movie being watched on the screen. But what is actually happening? Hands typing on keyboard, sensations labeled "effort", thoughts labeled "intention", stories that are transcribed to computer screen. I am responsible for nothing because there is no "I". That is not to say that the concept of responsibility is not useful in everyday life.

Another illustration: It can seem that I am choosing to do some activity. But how did the idea of doing that particular activity appear in the mind? There are a huge number of activities that I could do, yet this one came to mind. How did it get there? There is an illusion that I beckoned the idea to come, yet when the process is examined, there is simply a sense of effort, then the idea appearing. Even if a set of possible activities comes to mind, and only one is embarked upon, no agent is needed to explain this. Images of the pros and cons of the various choices come to mind. Some are accompanied by stories perceived to be pleasant or unpleasant. Then, the thought arises, "I will choose X", and the activity is possibly embarked upon. Since no agent is needed to explain this series of events, Occam's Razor suggests the best explanation omits any hypothetical agent. We don't know the mechanism by which thoughts arise, but this is not needed in order to see what the illusion of self is composed of.

6) Anything to add?

I thought hard and wrote and re-wrote these answers. The thought that seeing may still not be clear continues to arise.

Thank you, Ghata, for guiding me through this inquiry.

[Ghata]

Dear Terry,

thank you for your great effort to find the right words :-)

I thought hard and wrote and re-wrote these answers. The thought that seeing may still not be clear continues to arise.

When looking into what can actually be experienced, is it clear that there is no "ME"? Could it still be hidng somewhere?

Does seeing through the illusion of "I" seem like such a rare, highly ranked experience that it posibbly can't be true?

Much love,
Ghata

[tfarrah]

When looking into what can actually be experienced, is it clear that there is no "ME"? Could it still be hiding somewhere?

Yes, it is clear, but often I have to look. Then, two seconds later, I have to look again.

Also, when I reflect on the process, the thought arises, "I have seen how the illusion of self operates," and in that thought is the sensation+thought of "I" -- the sense of "I" is experienced. In brief, colloquial terms, I think of it as something that I did. Then, I reflect on my new knowledge of how the illusion of self operates, and see that I didn't do anything. But the thought "I did it" may arise again right away.

Does seeing through the illusion of "I" seem like such a rare, highly ranked experience that it posibbly can't be true?

It seems that this belief is operating much less strongly that it was at the beginning of the process, and even less than it was just a few days ago. However, this is a pattern of belief that operates throughout my life (just a few days ago I was offered a job and I couldn't believe that this person actually thought I was worthy of the position) so it's certainly operating to some extent now.

Similarly, four years ago when my teacher said that stream entry had happened for me, I had very similar doubts ("Nothing seems different. There was no moment of nibbana. I feel the same as before.") and she and I talked about it for quite a while, and I consulted two other teachers for confirmation. The doubt remains today.

[Ghata]

Dear Terry,

Then, I reflect on my new knowledge of how the illusion of self operates

is it a new knowledge or is it an experience of the Illusion of self?

Much love,
Ghata

[tfarrah]

Then, I reflect on my new knowledge of how the illusion of self operates

is it a new knowledge or is it an experience of the Illusion of self?

It seems to me that my writing in this dialog should answer this question, if anything can. The dialog documents the things I have experienced as part of this inquiry. If there are other things that need to be experienced, I likely have not experienced them.

My experience of daily life is that it feels the same as before. When I slow down and inquire, I can see the components of the illusion. I see that I = thought+sensation. I observe that there is no causal relationship between what I say I will do and what I actually do. I observe that thoughts arise unbidden. Etc. These observations have led to new knowledge.

Terry

[Ghata]

Dear Terry,

thank you for your answer.

The other guides will have a look at our dialogue to make sure everything was covered. There might be further questions, so please stay tuned.

Much love,
Ghata

[tfarrah]

Thank you, Ghata.
If it would be useful to videochat, I'm game.

Terry

[Ghata]

Dear Terry,

I am happy to tell you there are no more questions . Welcome home :-)

I like the idea to have a videochat with you even if it is not "necessary". Are you still up to it?

The next days until Wednesday I will be staying in an area where the internet is too slow for videochatting.
But afterwards that would be really great :-)

Would you like to be added to the facebookgroups? I got your facebook name from the Gate group.

It will take until + 8 hours as I will be travelling today.

See you on the other side of the gate.

Much love,
Ghata

[tfarrah]

Dear Ghata,

I would love to be added to the facebook groups, and I would love to videochat.

Love,
Terry

[Ghata]

Dear Terry,

great :-).

I will pm you on facebook when I am back.

See you in the groups!

Much love,
Christiane