My imagined thread

[Florisness]

Can you have a look and describe what is being experienced, please?

You mean what I found/experienced when looking for an absent me? Ahhh that releases some confusion.

If I close my eyes and look I just notice (buzzing) sensations. Putting attention on different sensations may produce different thoughts, but it is mostly the same sensation everywhere.
When when I pressure the question 'is there a me?' and thought answers 'yes' and I question 'where?' there is the attention shooting back and forth looking for a me in the head but it gives up pretty soon.

[Canfora]

You mean what I found/experienced when looking for an absent me? Ahhh that releases some confusion.

Oh, I get it, you are focusing in the "inside" and I was asking about how is the "allness" experienced. That's okay. "Inside" and "allness" are 2 different points of view for the same - mine was a zoom out and yours a zoom in :)

If I close my eyes and look I just notice (buzzing) sensations. Putting attention on different sensations may produce different thoughts, but it is mostly the same sensation everywhere.
When when I pressure the question 'is there a me?' and thought answers 'yes' and I question 'where?' there is the attention shooting back and forth looking for a me in the head but it gives up pretty soon.

Very nice. From what you have written, it seems to me that you already can see what I'm going to point at next, but let's look to these sensations of being "inside".

When you pause and focus in these sensations that seen to be a you:

- do you find any boundaries between a you and the rest that is being experienced?

- can you find a place, a border, where a you starts and a you finishes?

- is it possible to sense a you separated from the totality of what is being experienced?

If I ask you to point a finger at your-self, where would the finger point to? Try it and check if you are pointing to a self. Share how it goes :)

[Florisness]

I already had some experience with these 'sense of being' questions and "know" the answers but tried to do it freshly.

- do you find any boundaries between a you and the rest that is being experienced?

No they have that same sense thing going on.

- can you find a place, a border, where a you starts and a you finishes?

No.

- is it possible to sense a you separated from the totality of what is being experienced?

Yes I think so because I can sense that beingsense for example behind my body too.

If I ask you to point a finger at your-self, where would the finger point to? Try it and check if you are pointing to a self. Share how it goes :)

My finger didn't know what to do! But forced to do anyway it moved to the head. If I look with one eye and make one finger point and then look with the other eye and make my other finger point, I get different lines that don't even connect anywhere!

[Canfora]

I already had some experience with these 'sense of being' questions and "know" the answers but tried to do it freshly.

Okay, thank you.

Yes I think so because I can sense that beingsense for example behind my body too.

Does this mean you did find a you?

My finger didn't know what to do! But forced to do anyway it moved to the head. If I look with one eye and make one finger point and then look with the other eye and make my other finger point, I get different lines that don't even connect anywhere!

Thanks for the laugh! So can you point to a self?

At the moment what makes you think you are a self?

[Florisness]

It's getting clearer that there is no I. Your help is very helpful, also the Gateless Gatechrachers.pdf helps. I thought this enlightenment thing would be hard or take long to realize, but I see that that is not the case.

Does this mean you did find a you?

No, just a sense/knowing.

Thanks for the laugh! So can you point to a self?
At the moment what makes you think you are a self?

No I can't point to it.
Your last question is hard. I'm not a thought, nor thinking them. But there if often a kind of background me thought present, or it's a feeling, or both, not sure. I think there is a of thought of being the observer, but when I notice that it's just a thought.

I do notice thoughts saying something like 'yeah all these things are just happening' and behind those the hope that some realization will happen.

I wrote my enlightenment drives and fantasies down (again) and they are bullshit and I they dropped a bit by putting them on paper.

It's getting clearer that these things are really all just happening on their own. Which makes me wonder what is preventing such an obvious no-me seeing from happening.

[Canfora]

It's getting clearer that there is no I.

To whom it's getting clearer then?
(couldn't resist throwing a tricky question in your direction!... :)

Your help is very helpful, also the Gateless Gatechrachers.pdf helps. I thought this enlightenment thing would be hard or take long to realize, but I see that that is not the case.

It depends of the person. Good to know it is getting clearer for you and you find it simpler than expected.

I wrote my enlightenment drives and fantasies down (again) and they are bullshit and I they dropped a bit by putting them on paper.

Good!

It's getting clearer that these things are really all just happening on their own. Which makes me wonder what is preventing such an obvious no-me seeing from happening.

Can you please explain your last sentence? What do you think "no-me seeing" is?

[Florisness]

To whom it's getting clearer then?

To me! :D No not to anyone. But it does sometimes seem that I am not believing the thoughts, or that I am focusing. Although I can see that that's just a thought or sense attached to the focusing.

Can you please explain your last sentence? What do you think "no-me seeing" is?

uhh well it's kinda odd when I think about it! How about the dropping away of the me in experience?

[Canfora]

Have a look to what is going on in thinking-land and check if there is a shift happening - the replacement of a belief in a self into a believe in a no self. Is this what is happening?

Could it be that self and no self are similar thoughts/beliefs?

When you look to reality as it is, can you find evidences of the existence of a self or evidences of its absence?

What do you see - if you "zoom out" from the attention that you're giving to thoughts and look around you?

[Florisness]

Have a look to what is going on in thinking-land and check if there is a shift happening - the replacement of a belief in a self into a believe in a no self. Is this what is happening?

I took a while before answering you, but still I don't know the answer. Today I focused and questioned a lot and there did change something today. Somehow it seems obvious that there is no I, the word I doesn't point to anything, only thoughts. But I also notice a desire for seeing there is no I, this desire tries to force this seeing to occur. At that same point there is usually some frustration present.

Could it be that self and no self are similar thoughts/beliefs?

Yes I can see that. Beliefs are something that a self needs to cling to, it's what holds it in place.

When you look to reality as it is, can you find evidences of the existence of a self or evidences of its absence?

No I can't find any evidence.

What do you see - if you "zoom out" from the attention that you're giving to thoughts and look around you?

When I look at objects I see lots of story running. It's the me-story. It's not always visible but there is some calculation made about everything.

Time to go to bed, praise the lord! This whole thing is giving me a headache (and don't you dare 'who's having a headache?' me, or I'll find you and kill you (whatever is killable) :D )

[Florisness]

RISE AND SHINE! It's much clearer than my above message now, but I'll capture the sun and give it to you if you read that one too. Today this thing is going to get cracked, although not sure what the hell I'm saying with that.

There is just this environment and the brain processes that so that this body can do stuff. Thoughts are the same thing, just part of the flow. There is just this circle like motion in all of this and how the hell could there be an I who owns a part of that?

EXCITEMENT AND HAPPINESS FLYING AROUND!

I try to find an I so I have something to work with, but can only find some shitty thoughts. HA!

[Canfora]

Yes, I have read your post where you have threatened to kill me. I must be closer to my very enlightened goal to become a guru, since I am receiving death threats! You would have to take a airplane to kill me, you know? I'm far, far away from you... (I'm joking of course. I highly appreciate your sense of humor. Your comment made me laugh.)

Today this thing is going to get cracked, although not sure what the hell I'm saying with that.

This is not a enigma you can crack. It is simpler than that. So simple that you think it is something that needs to be cracked. <--- this sounds like something that needs to be cracked, doesn't it? The joys of using language to point to the obvious... it makes the obvious seem other than... uh, the obvious.

There is just this environment and the brain processes that so that this body can do stuff.

These are just assumptions. You can be right, you can't be wrong but it's just a point of view.

Can you go for a walk? In nature if possible? Have a experiential look to "the flow", "this environment", "it is just this circle". Go look at life. See if you can find any evidence of separation between a you and all the rest :)

Let me know how it goes.

[Florisness]

Oh yes sorry sometimes I take my jokes too far! I was just kidding of course, you don't need to worry about a thing! No worries and go have a nice deep sleep tonight. No need to wonder and open your eyes about what that cracking on the floor is when you wake up in the middle of the night. Just notice it and go back to nice deep sleep.. Btw, you like axes?

Okay that was my last murder joke.

These are just assumptions. You can be right, you can't be wrong but it's just a point of view.

Can you go for a walk? In nature if possible? Have a experiential look to "the flow", "this environment", "it is just this circle". Go look at life. See if you can find any evidence of separation between a you and all the rest :)

Let me know how it goes.

Did it, thank you it was nice! Okay flow, environment and circle stuff is all crap. I did notice the story of a me influencing thought, behavior, the decision to go to the forest, etc., but that was all fine. There is nothing behind that story. The trees, chirping birds, head sensations, thoughts, walking feet, urges, are all just arisings/happenings. Placed a me-image next to the appearance of a tree and questioned if one was more me than the other. It did feel like the me-image was a bit more me but I saw that that was just the story.
Since experience is all that there is, I have to be that. So I tried to force a seeing of that, and you know what? That didn't work.

[Canfora]

Oh yes sorry sometimes I take my jokes too far! I was just kidding of course, you don't need to worry about a thing! No worries and go have a nice deep sleep tonight. No need to wonder and open your eyes about what that cracking on the floor is when you wake up in the middle of the night. Just notice it and go back to nice deep sleep.. Btw, you like axes?

Okay that was my last murder joke.

I'll try to behave also :)

Did it, thank you it was nice!

Thank you for following my suggestion.

Okay flow, environment and circle stuff is all crap.

Language has limitations, yes.

Since experience is all that there is, I have to be that.

This sounds like if you are trying to convince yourself that this idea must be true.

So I tried to force a seeing of that, and you know what? That didn't work.

Were you trying to see something special, something different than the normal seeing of life as it is? What were you trying to see?

Are you getting discouraged? I hope not. You're doing really well. It seems to me that you have some expectations and ideas that are getting in the way, but we can deal with those. That's okay.

[Florisness]

This sounds like if you are trying to convince yourself that this idea must be true.

Hmm yes that's how it sounds like to me too. Sometimes certain thing seem to be very obvious, but I notice that it is not umm integrated or something. I guess that's where the brainless convincing kicks in. If something seems obvious but not integrated, is that because there is still an unrecognized aspect/belief that needs seeing/discovered? Or how would you suggest handling it?

Were you trying to see something special, something different than the normal seeing of life as it is? What were you trying to see?

Haha yes that was exactly what was happening! I think I was trying to leap onto another consciousness level, that can be such an irresistible urge.

Are you getting discouraged? I hope not. You're doing really well. It seems to me that you have some expectations and ideas that are getting in the way, but we can deal with those. That's okay.

No not getting discouraged. Just trying to get it over fast because the timing would be great at this period. I do see how that is rather obstructing rather than helping. I'll try dropping expectations and hopes and just focus.

Do you have anything specific for me to focus on?

[Canfora]

Hmm yes that's how it sounds like to me too. Sometimes certain thing seem to be very obvious, but I notice that it is not umm integrated or something. I guess that's where the brainless convincing kicks in. If something seems obvious but not integrated, is that because there is still an unrecognized aspect/belief that needs seeing/discovered? Or how would you suggest handling it?

We are trying to find a self, a you, a me, a entity separated from life.
So if there is a believe that something is this self, look at it, until you are sure that what you have found is not a self. Keep it simple and be curious. Be very curious - instead of assuming that you already know the answers.

Haha yes that was exactly what was happening! I think I was trying to leap onto another consciousness level, that can be such an irresistible urge.

So are you under the assumption that what you're trying to find can't be found in this immediate experience?

My friend, you can't leave this experience - what you're looking for is here, not there, in a imaginary experience. If you don't believe me try escaping what is being experienced. Try to experience something that isn't being experienced - try to experience what you think you should be experiencing. And share how that goes, I would love to know if you find a way to shift to a not this experience!

Do you have anything specific for me to focus on?

Have a look. At the moment, what seems to be a you?