Request to be guided

[Ghata]

Dear Terry,

Where does the label 'me' come from? I keep asking myself this. The label 'me' or 'I' seems to be subtly vocalized simultaneous to these contractions. I don't know how to answer the question, "where does the label come from?" from direct experience. What is meant by "where"? Do you mean, where in the body? The label is a thought.

You gave the answer to "Where does the label come from?" - It is a thought, yes.

Let's look at all the aspects separately.


The word 'me', see it written on piece of paper, is that YOU?

Speak the word 'me' silently, watch the sensations. Are these contractions by themselves YOU?

Now say the word aloud. Is that sound YOU?

Is the combination of any of these YOU?


Share what feels true.

Warm regards,
Ghata

[tfarrah]

The word 'me', see it written on piece of paper, is that YOU?

This seems clear; the answer is "no".

Speak the word 'me' silently, watch the sensations. Are these contractions by themselves YOU?

The answer to this is not clear! It is as though I have stopped agreeing that the only things that can be perceived are thoughts and sensations, because when I watch these sensations I cannot say that they are not ME. They are associated with ME-ness.

Now say the word aloud. Is that sound YOU?

Hmmm, this is a weird experience. I am saying "me", and this, too, seems associated with ME-ness, but as I keep saying it over and over again I notice the different components of the experience: the "mmmmm" and its low tone, the higher-pitched "eeeeee", the transition as the lips part ... and after a while the ME-ness fades.

What if I silently say a similar word, like "meh" or "nee"? As I consider doing this, fear and anger arise, along with thoughts like, "that will never work" and "what a boring exercise".

Silently saying "meh", it is clear that the thought "meh" plus the sensations are not ME, even though the experience is similar to silently saying "me" ... as I continue silently saying "meh", a sense of ME-ness gradually arises in association with the sensations in the throat.

Now I am alternating a silent "I" with a silent "Ah" (similar sounding word to "I"). There is a ME-ness to the "I" but not to the "Ah". Fear and resistance arise, along with I-thoughts like, "I am so clever for having come up with this exercise; if it works then perhaps it will be added to the LU repertoire," and "This is hard but if I keep going I can do it!" The mind becomes foggy as I continue. A desire to quit arises.

I will continue doing this exercise but will first post this in case you're online and want to respond.

[Ghata]

Dear Terry,

the scientist in the consciousness-lab :-).

Speak the word 'me' silently, watch the sensations. Are these contractions by themselves YOU?

The answer to this is not clear! It is as though I have stopped agreeing that the only things that can be perceived are thoughts and sensations, because when I watch these sensations I cannot say that they are not ME. They are associated with ME-ness.

Silently saying "meh", it is clear that the thought "meh" plus the sensations are not ME, even though the experience is similar to silently saying "me" ... as I continue silently saying "meh", a sense of ME-ness gradually arises in association with the sensations in the throat.

There is a ME-ness to the "I" but not to the "Ah".

Ok, the sense of ME is arising. Now have a look into this sense, the constrictions in the throat, the sound I.

Is there actually a separate entity ME to be found? If yes, what does it exactly look like and where is it exactly?

You are looking for some entity you can experience directly, see, hear, touch, smell or taste. The sense doesn't prove anything, it is just a feeling.

Warm regards,
Ghata

[tfarrah]

Dear Ghata,

Ok, the sense of ME is arising. Now have a look into this sense, the constrictions in the throat, the sound I.
Is there actually a separate entity ME to be found?

Well, of course there isn't. But I spent a bunch of time throughout the day looking at this sense and its components and its dynamicism, the arising and passing of the constrictions and other ME sensations, and the voice in the head. I asked myself how this was different from the feel of the breeze on my skin or the sounds of the city, which do not have a sense of ME-ness. I asked, is there a separate entity ME to be found, one that I can see or touch? Although the answer is obviously "no", I kept asking and looking. Sometimes I would feel a little dizzy or foggy-headed and then the thought would arise, "Maybe the illusion is dissolving now!" Sometimes something in my visual field would appear especially crisp and the thought would arise, "Maybe now!" Sometimes I compared the sensations of "me" with the sensations of "meh" and that would often bring up dizziness or foggy-headedness. Sometimes I'd notice the sensations of "me" and ask myself, "What is this ME-ness? There is nothing more here than thought and sensation." Sometimes I would try to fully feel the sensations. But mostly I just asked, "Is there a separate ME entity that can be seen or felt?" No, there was not. Sometimes the thought arose, "Well, there are some body parts in the neck and torso in which these sensations are occurring -- could that be ME?" But, no, I don't think of my physical throat as ME. Is there a small human figure inside? No, of course not!

I really want to get through this.

Would it be helpful for us to do a real-time dialog at a time when we are both awake and online? Tomorrow I will probably be online around 0630 Pacific Time. That would be 1530 in Germany--I think you are in Germany?

Good night (good morning), Ghata!

Terry

[Ghata]

Dear Terry,

a real time conversation at that time would be possible for me on Friday. Until then keep going.

Ok, the sense of ME is arising. Now have a look into this sense, the constrictions in the throat, the sound I.
Is there actually a separate entity ME to be found?

Well, of course there isn't.

Terry, it's time to face the truth. There is no self. No ME.
Face it and write what comes up.

Much love - Ghata

[tfarrah]

Terry, it's time to face the truth. There is no self. No ME.
Face it and write what comes up.

When I read this, before any conscious thoughts arose, before any pondering occurred, my heart started beating faster and a full feeling, like sadness, arose in the throat. Then the thought arose, "Ghata is being tough with me. Finally she is seeing what a bad girl I've been and is giving me the discipline I need and deserve." Then, "This is one of the tricks in the guide's bag of tricks. I'm glad she has access to the bag of tricks. I hope this trick works." And then the thought, "I'd better get it now, otherwise it will be all over. She will give up on me." And then, "I know where this is going. I am definitely going to fail and be abandoned."

Now what arises in the mind is, "Now that this initial reaction has passed, I have some work to do. Ghata wants me to face the truth. It is time to read her words and ponder them."

And now, before any pondering, "I don't need to be worried. I don't need to work hard. All is unfolding as it should."

And now, there is a sense that pondering is about to happen.

Thought: "This is one of those things that either works right away, or doesn't. I don't have to ponder. That would be counterproductive. Or ... I guess if pondering happens, that is part of the natural unfolding. Actually, whatever is supposed to be happening is happening right now. Hands typing on keyboard, thoughts arising, typing sounds reaching ears. A deep breath. Waiting for another thought to arise so that I can type it."

Thought: "This is a bunch of avoidance garbage and Ghata is going to rightfully call me on it! But if avoidance is happening, that is what is happening."

Thought: "Pondering hasn't begun yet, even though I had the thought, 'I will ponder Ghata's words now'. Another example of how the I isn't in control! Did I use proper language there?"

Attention goes to the sensations I remember from yesterday as associated with ME-ness. Ghata says there is no self, no ME. So those sensations are not ME, because there is no ME. In fact, I haven't had a sense of ME since I began this exercise. What about those sensations? If I incline my mind just so, I will continue to see the sensations as just sensations, the ME-ness sense will not arise, and I will finally be done. But wait, that is nonsense. I can't do that, because I can't do anything, because there is no 'I'. There, now I am having those sensations that are associated with the thought, "I'm about to get it now!" Oh, darn, that means I am probably NOT going to get it now! I need to stop all this typing and thinking and look for ME to make sure it's finally once and for all gone. Wow, what ridiculousness! Is that what I really need to do? What are the instructions? (Or maybe the process has nothing to do with whether or not I follow instructions.)

Face it and write what comes up.

I am certainly writing what comes up, but am I facing IT? What would it mean to face the fact that there is no ME? I don't know. And it is true that I don't know because there is no "I" to know. Still no sense of self this morning, but that is only because I haven't looked for it. If I just take a peek, the same as I did yesterday, I am sure it will be there! But I don't want to peek in that way! I don't want to experience the disappointment that I haven't gotten it yet. Because I'm sure I haven't gotten it yet: everything feels so normal; I don't notice any new perspective.

OK, I peeked. There is that sense of ME-ness. But, no big deal, it is a sense. It's just a label for a set of sensations. So what?

But of course there is still a belief in ME. It's all over this writing. Or is it? Right now, there is a sense of inclining the mind to ponder what to do next. Wait a sec. "Inclining the mind to ponder what to do next"? The eyes are looking up and to the right, there is a slight tensing in the right jaw, there is breathing, there are the small contractions in the throat assoicated with "I" ... then a thought arises, and the hands type it ... there is no inclining, no pondering.

But, ha ha, I can see that I am still going to view my daily life as though there is inclining and pondering and "I", unless I am vigilant and purge my thinking of that view, discipline the mind. I don't think that's what I'm being asked to do, though. And there is no "I" to do it.

I don't know if I've faced the fact of no self, but probably I've written enough.

Love,
Terry

[tfarrah]

Dear Ghata,

In the spirit of total honesty, I will share what I've been up to during the past 30 minutes since I last posted.

When I first started working with you, I abstained from reading any material relevant to awakening except what you wrote or told me to read. This is because my partner, Z, who also began working with a guide at the same time that I did, said that her guide said that this is best. But over the past few days I have been craving more, and have been browsing the LU site, reading here and there on LU, watching an LU video.

Just now I went to see the list of forum users who have crashed the gate, the ones with blue names. I wanted to see how many had crashed recently. How frequently were people crashing? And I read 2 or 3 threads, thinking, "I'm not supposed to read other people's threads right now, it's not relevant to my process, but Ghata never told me not to, and it probably wouldn't do any harm." It felt inspiring to read the threads.

After reading a couple threads, I went back to the page that listed all the gate crashers to date -- and there I saw my partner's name! I was shocked! We had agreed not to discuss our processes with each other, but we had also agreed to let each other know if and when we passed through the gate. Now it has been a full 10 minutes since I saw her name there, and my heart is still beating strongly--more strongly than after I read your words, "Terry, it's time to face the truth. There is no self. No ME."

There is so much happiness for Z. There is a marveling at the fact of it, my loved one, seeking so sincerely and for so long--there is no greater wish I have for her! I have noticed a change in her lately, a big change, really. So much less reactivity. And there is some disbelief--did I really see her name there in blue? Could it be somebody else's pseudonym? And, there is a bit of jealousy that she has passed through and I have yet not, a fear of being left behind. There is NOT a sense of betrayal--if she has not revealed to me that she has passed through the gate, I am sure it is for good reason.

Will try to go back to bed now.

Love,
Terry

[Ghata]

Dear Terry,

thank you for your honesty.

You wrote to me several times that there is no separate entity ME to be found. The last time was yesterday.

Ok, the sense of ME is arising. Now have a look into this sense, the constrictions in the throat, the sound I.
Is there actually a separate entity ME to be found?

Well, of course there isn't.

Sit with this. "Of course there isn't (a ME)."

What would happen if you let this sink in?
There is no ME. None as in zero, zilch, zip.

Write what comes up.

I will be there for you as long as it takes.

Much love,
Ghata

[tfarrah]

Dear Ghata,

I will be there for you as long as it takes.

:-)

Thank you for offering to do a real-time dialog. I am occupied at 0630 on Friday, but available 0600 and then starting at 0800 on that day. But what I actually hope is that I will not need it :-)

Sit with this. "Of course there isn't (a ME)."

What would happen if you let this sink in?
There is no ME. None as in zero, zilch, zip.

I am sitting on the living room couch with the beautiful dawn outside the window: trees with mossy branches, leaves bursting out, crows laughing.

"Of course there isn't a separate entity that is ME."

Fear, shallow breathing, silence in the head. Enjoyment of the sights out the window.

"Of course there isn't a separate entity, that can be seen or touched, that is ME."

Gaaaah, I really don't want to get into an intellectual or semantic argument, but here is what comes up, what has come up for days, and I have to reveal it because of the importance of honesty: of course there isn't a separate entity ME that can be seen or touched. But it seems that ME is an entity that CANNOT be seen or touched, a conglomeration of phenomena. Like a storm. A storm has clouds, rain, thunder, lightning. It arises, it passes, it arises again. I can see the components, I can feel the rain, but can I see or touch STORM? No. Yet a storm is as real as a more solid, persistent entity, such as a stone.

So although it is obvious that ME is not a separate entity that I can see or touch, it is not obvious that there is no ME.

I will persist with allowing "Of course there is no ME" to sink in, but will press submit now in case you are online and wish to respond.

Terry

[tfarrah]

Sit with this. "Of course there isn't (a ME)."

What would happen if you let this sink in?
There is no ME. None as in zero, zilch, zip.

Staring out the window at nature, telling myself over and over again that there is no ME. Zero, zilch, zip. The mind wanders and feels "bored" -- the thought arises that boredom is avoidance. "There is no ME" continues to repeat in the mind. When I-thoughts arise, "there is no ME".

Seeing a brilliant red color in the distance. It is unclear what the red object is, but desire arises to be with it, and the thought arises, "I can be with it. There is nothing to separate me. I can be with it as long as I want."

I-sensations arise. Thought: "There is no ME". An internal gesture to push away or obliterate the sensations. Then, "No need to obliterate the sensations. They can be fully allowed. They just are not ME."

Boredom arises again. I keep looking out the window ... "There is no ME"

I check for a message from Ghata ... no message.

Looking ... thoughts arise ... "just thoughts" ... restlessness arises ... "just sensation, perhaps unpleasant"

Hunger arises!

Thought: I am going to sign off now and go about my day, remembering "there is no ME".

Love,
Terry

[Ghata]

Dear Terry,

it is really good that you write everything that comes up :-)

But it seems that ME is an entity that CANNOT be seen or touched, a conglomeration of phenomena. Like a storm. A storm has clouds, rain, thunder, lightning. It arises, it passes, it arises again. I can see the components, I can feel the rain, but can I see or touch STORM? No. Yet a storm is as real as a more solid, persistent entity, such as a stone.

The storm doesn't exist just as the ME doesn't exist. If you had never experienced a storm - would you know that this is storm?
What would you experience? Wetting of the skin, loud noise, bright light against darkness, cool touch of skin.

Clouds, rain, thunder, lightning, wind...these are all labels. They are not the experience. Storm is the sum-label of all these phenomena. But the word "storm" can't be experienced.
There is seeing, hearing, touching, smelling tasting....there is experiencing but not an experiencer ME (you found that out already).

Don't think about whether there is a "ME". Don't repeat "There is no me". It is not about creating a new belief.

Look directly into experience. Can it be found?

Much love, Ghata

[tfarrah]

Thank you, Ghata.

The storm doesn't exist just as the ME doesn't exist.

I accept this only if you agree that no concept at all exists, including water, stone, tree ...

Don't repeat "There is no me".

This is my method for letting this reality sink in. I repeat it, I notice its reality in my experience, it seems there is no ME in experience. Let me know what else to do if this is not a good idea.

Love,
Terry

[Ghata]

Dear Terry,

repeating 'there is no me' is implementing a belief.

I don't want you to believe something.

Better turn it into a question.

Look at everything, hand, arm, shoulder and so on. Go through the whole body. And ask: Is this ME? Can I find a ME here?

And right, concepts only exist as thoughts. The word water, tree...they are all concepts.
What is the direct experience of water? The word "water"?


Much love,
Ghata

[tfarrah]

Dear Ghata,

Thank you for this dialog.

Anger, frustration arose when I read your message and these emotions have stuck around for the hour since then.

This:

Look at everything, hand, arm, shoulder and so on. Go through the whole body. And ask: Is this ME? Can I find a ME here?

... seems different from what you asked me to do earlier today:

Sit with this. "Of course there isn't (a ME)."

What would happen if you let this sink in?
There is no ME. None as in zero, zilch, zip.

This "letting it sink in" sounded attractive, like something I wanted to do, whereas looking through the body seems tedious, something I've done already, and something I don't want to do. I know this doesn't mean it's not a good idea, the aversion could mean it's a very good idea, but it's triggering frustration.

It doesn't seem to me that repeating "There is no ME" is implementing a belief. It feels like it is drawing my attention to reality. An emotion will arise, the thought arises, "there is no ME", and the emotion passes away. A train of thought about something arises, then the thought arises, "there is no ME", and the train of thought dissolves and I once again experience my surroundings.

Just occurs to me that I just wrote two contradictory things: (1) anger has been present for an hour (2) today when emotions arise, the thought "there is no ME" arises and the emotion passes. Hmmmm.

I am also frustrated about our discussion of concepts and what is real. We are agreed, concepts are just thoughts. However, it seems that you think a stone is more real than a storm. That doesn't make any sense to me. The way this is relevant to our dialog is that it seem you think if I found something called ME that I could see or touch, it would be more real than a ME that is composed of thoughts and sensations. Until today I have been setting aside this apparent confusion and just doing the exercises you have been giving me.

With gratitude,
Terry

[tfarrah]

Dear Ghata,

Today was a day of big joy (for Z's passing through the gate) and big frustration (regarding how I ought to look).

Look at everything, hand, arm, shoulder and so on. Go through the whole body. And ask: Is this ME? Can I find a ME here?

I did this during our 45 minute Wednesday evening sit. I started with the hands. Is this ME? The thought arose, "The answer is supposed to be no, but I can't just say no, I have to find the answer by direct experience." Then, "Uh-oh. I'm going to sound like an ignorant cretin, but my answer today is, yes, this hand is ME. It just feels like ME! If there is any ME, then my hands are a part of it."

Fingernails: yes, but only where they are attached to the skin. The part you can cut off: no
Arm, shoulder, chest, head, legs: yes, except for the part of the toenails you can cut off. Also, hair is not ME, nor are eyelashes or eyebrows. Saliva is not ME. Blood is ME until it comes out of the body, then it is not ME. Cuticles are me until I chew them off, then they are not ME. Food passing through the digestive system, the gut microbiome, these are not ME. Teeth are marginal.

What if the arm is cut off, is it then still ME? No, it is then no longer me, unless it can be re-attached. What about the ovaries that I had removed? Those are no longer ME. I did a thought experiment: what if the foot had fallen asleep and was numb, without sensation? Then it would seem less like a part of ME.

I felt bored during this investigation, and dozed off during a portion of it. Upon awakening, the thought arose, "Are the hands REALLY me? Is there any way I can look at them such that they will not appear to be ME? Because I really don't want to sound like a cretin in my report to Ghata this evening, and I want to pass through the gate."

I looked at the hands, I touched them one with the other, I turned them over, first with palm up, then with palm down. They still seemed to be part of ME.

In days previous, I said that ME is thought+sensation, but now I am saying that ME includes most of the physical body. Which is true? Is it different on different days? Now, the attention is going to the sensations in the throat that I wrote of a couple days ago, and the label ME arises -- now, the body no longer seems like ME.

Feeling like a recalcitrant student,
Terry