Seeing reality as it is

[forgetmenot]

Hey Zarina,

is sensation thought or is sensation, sensation? Sensation may seem to appear when thought labelled ‘self-talk’ appears…but how is it known that the label ‘self-talk’ caused the sensation?

Sensation is sensation. Thought says that "this thought caused this sensation".

Yes, there is no cause and effect. Experience is not split into different categories, even though thought says it is. Did you find a dividing line of any description between sound, thought, sensation etc?

Images can appear that refer to the future.

Just to clarify: images themselves can't refer to the future, but thought says they do. Is this what you mean here?

That’s right, images themselves can’t refer to the future, but they appear and thought then tells the story. If an image of fishing appeared now and you dropped all thoughts….how would you know it was an image of fishing and how would you know that it referred to a future called ‘going fishing tomorrow’?

I also just wanted to check my understanding of AE with you
Driving to work this morning: saw that there was image + sensation + thought. There was no AE of driving. This was seen for part of the drive, not the whole drive. There was also exploration of "who/what was "driving."

Yes, you got it :)

If you were in a desert, dying of thirst, could you quench your thirst just by thinking about water (thoughts) or would you need to drink ‘real’ water?

Let’s say I’m with you in the desert and offer you two options:
(1) In my left hand there is a piece of paper with the word ‘water’ written on it, and
(2) in my right hand there is a bottle of water.

Which one would you choose to quench your thirst, the label or the water?
So, can the label ‘water’, which is actual experience (AE) of thought, quench your thirst?

Labels are ‘real’ as appearing thoughts but its ‘content’, what the thought is ABOUT is not ‘real’ and is NOT the AE of ‘content’.

Is this clear?

Love, Kay

[zarina]

Dear Kay,

Did you find a dividing line of any description between sound, thought, sensation etc?

No. Only thought says they are different.

If an image of fishing appeared now and you dropped all thoughts….how would you know it was an image of fishing and how would you know that it referred to a future called ‘going fishing tomorrow’?

it would only be "known" because of thought.

Which one would you choose to quench your thirst, the label or the water?
So, can the label ‘water’, which is actual experience (AE) of thought, quench your thirst?

Labels are ‘real’ as appearing thoughts but its ‘content’, what the thought is ABOUT is not ‘real’ and is NOT the AE of ‘content’.

Is this clear?

Yes, it is clear. The label "anger" is a thought (AE of thought) but there is no actual experience of anger - what the thought says (its content) isn't real.

Thank you very much Kay.

With love,
Zarina

[forgetmenot]

Hello Zarina,

If an image of fishing appeared now and you dropped all thoughts….how would you know it was an image of fishing and how would you know that it referred to a future called ‘going fishing tomorrow’?

it would only be "known" because of thought.

Exactly! What is really there is just colours + AE of thought.

Which one would you choose to quench your thirst, the label or the water?
So, can the label ‘water’, which is actual experience (AE) of thought, quench your thirst?

Labels are ‘real’ as appearing thoughts but its ‘content’, what the thought is ABOUT is not ‘real’ and is NOT the AE of ‘content’.

Is this clear?

Yes, it is clear. The label "anger" is a thought (AE of thought) but there is no actual experience of anger - what the thought says (its content) isn't real.

Yes the exercise is pointing out that what the content of thought is…is illusion.

Okay…moving onto time.

There is a general assumption that there is linear time that started (if started at all) somewhere very far in the past and advances to the distant future. The present moment (now) is considered to be a very small fragment of time or an event that is moving forward on this linear time, coming from the past and advancing to the future.

But is there an experience that the now is moving along the line of time?

How fast is the present moment actually moving?

How long does the now last?

Where does it start and where does it end?

When does the now exactly become the 'past'?

What is the past in actual experience?

Please look for the answers many-many times (smiling) before replying.

Love, Kay

[zarina]

Dear Kay,

But is there an experience that the now is moving along the line of time?

There is not actual experience of this. There is experience of thought, with the content saying various things about time.

How fast is the present moment actually moving?

There is no actual experience of a present moment that moves. There isn't a "present moment" as a discrete thing: there's just experience, now.

How long does the now last?

It is just here, now, always. It's not known how long it lasts.

Where does it start and where does it end?

There is no start and no end.

When does the now exactly become the 'past'?

Experience is only happening now. The "past" is just thoughts about experience: and those thoughts happen in the now too. So - the now doesn't become the past.

What is the past in actual experience?

It is thought. So is "future."

Thank you Kay, very much.

With love,
Zarina

[forgetmenot]

Hi Zarina,

But is there an experience that the now is moving along the line of time?

There is not actual experience of this. There is experience of thought, with the content saying various things about time.

Yes…nicely seen!

How fast is the present moment actually moving?

There is no actual experience of a present moment that moves. There isn't a "present moment" as a discrete thing: there's just experience, now.

Yes

How long does the now last?

It is just here, now, always. It's not known how long it lasts.

Yes

Where does it start and where does it end?

There is no start and no end.

Yes

When does the now exactly become the 'past'?

Experience is only happening now. The "past" is just thoughts about experience: and those thoughts happen in the now too. So - the now doesn't become the past.

Yes…nice :)

What is the past in actual experience?

It is thought. So is "future."

Yes

Okay…let’s check in to see how you are travelling with all of this! :)

Has it been clearly seen that there is no separate individual, and never has been?

Has it been clearly seen that there has never been a separate individual that could control or own life or anything?

Is there any chooser or decider of any kind?

Is there a separate individual/entity of any kind whatsoever that could be responsible for anything at all?

Is there a separate entity that started this exploration?

Has there ever been a separate self doing anything?

Is there any confusion at all or anything you would like to address?

Love, Kay

[zarina]

Dear Kay,

I want to respond to your questions before the server goes down for 48 hours. Know that I am also still looking at them.

Has it been clearly seen that there is no separate individual, and never has been?

It is clear when looking. Looking is happening a lot today. Many thoughts seen just as thought. Lots of sensations seen as sensations, and no dividing line/separation at times (when looking). When separation or dividing lines appeared to be there (observer/observed, for example), was seen as thought and sensation. Finding it hard to respond to the “never has been.” It appears that when trying to look at this question, only thought (analysis) arises, and is labeled as AE of thought. And then more thoughts: how can it be known whether there never has been? It is only thought that says yes or no. So, there are thoughts about being stuck on this, and not seeing clearly, or there being some resistance to looking. Seen as thoughts. Seen, often, as just happening, not caused by "me".

Has it been clearly seen that there has never been a separate individual that could control or own life or anything?

See above thoughts about not yet seeing the "never has been" part.

Is there any chooser or decider of any kind?

There is not - but very often there appears to be. Thought says that it was easier to see this today than it has been before. When looking, it is sensation and thought, and thought, and thoughts about the thoughts.

Is there a separate individual/entity of any kind whatsoever that could be responsible for anything at all?

No. There are thoughts about a separate individual/entity, doing and choosing. There seems to be a "belief" much of the time that a separate self is doing/choosing/responsible - but this is also seen as thought, and when asking the question who/what believes, there is nothing to be found.

Is there a separate entity that started this exploration?

There is no separate entity doing anything now. Thought says that therefore there is no separate entity that started the exploration. Thought also says that this isn't really "looking."

Has there ever been a separate self doing anything?

See early comments about uncertainty regarding seeing the "has there ever."

Is there any confusion at all or anything you would like to address?

There are a lot of thoughts labeled as confusion! And those are seen as AE of thought, just arising. There is also doubt about "lack of seeing." Also seen as thought. There is confusion about seeing clearly, in the now, lack of a separate self and no decider/controller, since this seeing arises only sometimes. But then again: this confusion is also seen as thought, repeatedly.

Thank you Kay, very much.

With love and gratitude,
Zarina

[forgetmenot]

Hi Zarina,

Has it been clearly seen that there is no separate individual, and never has been?

It is clear when looking. Looking is happening a lot today. Many thoughts seen just as thought. Lots of sensations seen as sensations, and no dividing line/separation at times (when looking). When separation or dividing lines appeared to be there (observer/observed, for example), was seen as thought and sensation. Finding it hard to respond to the “never has been.” It appears that when trying to look at this question, only thought (analysis) arises, and is labeled as AE of thought. And then more thoughts: how can it be known whether there never has been? It is only thought that says yes or no. So, there are thoughts about being stuck on this, and not seeing clearly, or there being some resistance to looking. Seen as thoughts. Seen, often, as just happening, not caused by "me".

“It is clear when looking”…then it is simply clear. You have an expectation that you should be seeing clearly 24/7 and that thoughts and sensation shouldn’t be appearing and when you no longer need to LOOK then you are then home and free! It is this expectation that hinders you. I gated 18 months ago and I am still LOOKING, I look everyday. I don’t need to LOOK as much anymore, but LOOKING still happens.

I want you to have a look at your sentence: “Finding it hard to respond to the “never has been.” It appears that when trying to look at this question, only thought (analysis) arises, and is labeled as AE of thought. And then more thoughts: how can it be known whether there never has been?

The only way that this could be difficult is because you haven’t really seen that there is no ‘you.

What exactly is it that is analysing, labelling, thinking, looking? LOOK and see if you can find this someone!

Your sentence doesn’t even make logical sense! What exactly is different now to before you started this exploration? How could there have been a ‘you’ before but no ‘you now? If there was a ‘you’ before…where has it gone?

Has it been clearly seen that there has never been a separate individual that could control or own life or anything?

See above thoughts about not yet seeing the "never has been" part.

Yes, exactly…”SEE ABOVE THOUGHTS”. That is all they are…thoughts, a story.

Is there any chooser or decider of any kind?

There is not - but very often there appears to be. Thought says that it was easier to see this today than it has been before. When looking, it is sensation and thought, and thought, and thoughts about the thoughts.

More story. You keep giving thought a life of its own by thinking that what the face value of thought is..is something that a thought is actually saying! Thought can’t say anything. How does a thought know what a thought means? How does a thought know what the content of a thought is? What does a thought look like? ALL that is appearing is a thought and YOU are still referencing to the content of thought as if it is gospel.

To what exactly is thought saying “it was easier to see this today than it has been before”? Find that entity/thing/person and then describe them to me in exact detail.

Is there a separate individual/entity of any kind whatsoever that could be responsible for anything at all?

No. There are thoughts about a separate individual/entity, doing and choosing. There seems to be a "belief" much of the time that a separate self is doing/choosing/responsible - but this is also seen as thought, and when asking the question who/what believes, there is nothing to be found.

So has there ever been someone/something responsible for anything?

Is there a separate entity that started this exploration?

There is no separate entity doing anything now. Thought says that therefore there is no separate entity that started the exploration. Thought also says that this isn't really "looking."

What exactly is it that thought is talking to? Find the entity/thing that thought is talking to and let me know exactly where it is located and what it is.

What is the AE of thought?

Has there ever been a separate self doing anything?

See early comments about uncertainty regarding seeing the "has there ever."

If thought said fairies were real…does it make fairies real?

Is there any confusion at all or anything you would like to address?

There are a lot of thoughts labeled as confusion! And those are seen as AE of thought, just arising. There is also doubt about "lack of seeing." Also seen as thought. There is confusion about seeing clearly, in the now, lack of a separate self and no decider/controller, since this seeing arises only sometimes. But then again: this confusion is also seen as thought, repeatedly.

There is the idea that something should be definitively different when seeing through the illusory self.

I want you to go back and read the entire thread from the beginning to now and let me know what comes up for you.

http://liberationunleashed.com/nation/v ... f=4&t=4756

Also…to just STOP. STOP everything and go back to noticing actual experience. Wherever you are…just take pleasure in noticing taste, smell, sound, colours and sensations…without taking it any further than that. Without analysing it or doing anything with it…other than noticing actual experience.

Love, Kay

[forgetmenot]

Hi Zarina,

The forum is back up and running.

http://liberationunleashed.com/nation/

I am looking forward to hearing from you and to hearing how you went after re-reading your entire thread.

Love, Kay

[zarina]

Dear Kay,

Thank you very much. I hope to do this sometime this evening, and will write back to you again later this evening or tomorrow evening.

STOP everything and go back to noticing actual experience

I have been doing this.

Love,
Zarina

[zarina]

Dear Kay,

It has been slow going on re-reading the thread. I have been reading it and also stopping and doing some of the exercises. Would you prefer that I just read straight through, and then report back? Or is it okay that I am taking it slow and looking along the way?

You have an expectation that you should be seeing clearly 24/7 and that thoughts and sensation shouldn’t be appearing and when you no longer need to LOOK then you are then home and free! It is this expectation that hinders you.

Yes! It became more clear this past weekend how expectations are hindering this process. Thank you. I think a few of these expectations have dissolved or lessened after seeing them more clearly this weekend.

You keep giving thought a life of its own by thinking that what the face value of thought is..is something that a thought is actually saying! Thought can’t say anything. How does a thought know what a thought means? How does a thought know what the content of a thought is? What does a thought look like? ALL that is appearing is a thought and YOU are still referencing to the content of thought as if it is gospel

Yes, I am seeing the ways that this keeps happening. This was very helpful. The last couple days, there have been a number of times (normally before or after sleep) when thoughts appear to just be streaming by - just arising, not to "me" or anyone - and not intelligible except once in a while an "I" thought pops up, saying something like "have to make sense of this". And other times when the thoughts were clear, and seen as just thoughts, not truth or reality, and not me.

What exactly is it that is analysing, labelling, thinking, looking? LOOK and see if you can find this someone!

I can't find this someone - but I am continuing to look. It so often seems that there is a someone...but it is just sensation, thoughts, mental images, color/image, and impulses of recognition that I think are just sensation+thought.

What exactly is it that thought is talking to? Find the entity/thing that thought is talking to and let me know exactly where it is located and what it is.

Thought isn't talking to anything...it appears that thought is talking to images (images of me or images of others), but it is thought that says that.

What is the AE of thought?

Thought.

If thought said fairies were real…does it make fairies real?

No! Thought just overlays on experience...and yet what is it that believes that the thoughts are real, sometimes? I can't find that entity, either, as of yet.

So has there ever been someone/something responsible for anything?

No - right now, it doesn't appear so. I will look more at this though.

Thank you very much Kay.

Love,
Zarina

[forgetmenot]

Hi Zarina,

It has been slow going on re-reading the thread. I have been reading it and also stopping and doing some of the exercises. Would you prefer that I just read straight through, and then report back? Or is it okay that I am taking it slow and looking along the way?

Take your time, redo the exercises…that is great.

You have an expectation that you should be seeing clearly 24/7 and that thoughts and sensation shouldn’t be appearing and when you no longer need to LOOK then you are then home and free! It is this expectation that hinders you.

Yes! It became more clear this past weekend how expectations are hindering this process. Thank you. I think a few of these expectations have dissolved or lessened after seeing them more clearly this weekend.

There was no ‘you’ before this exploration started and there is no ‘you’ now, so there aren’t going to be any changes, other than a change in perspective/perception. Whatever changes seemingly appear have nothing do with a 'you'. How can it. LOOK right this moment and find 'you'. We looked at 'time' and you saw that time isn't real. So when seeing there is no 'you' 'now', then there cannot be a 'you' in the 'past' or in the 'future'.

You keep giving thought a life of its own by thinking that what the face value of thought is..is something that a thought is actually saying! Thought can’t say anything. How does a thought know what a thought means? How does a thought know what the content of a thought is? What does a thought look like? ALL that is appearing is a thought and YOU are still referencing to the content of thought as if it is gospel

Yes, I am seeing the ways that this keeps happening. This was very helpful. The last couple days, there have been a number of times (normally before or after sleep) when thoughts appear to just be streaming by - just arising, not to "me" or anyone - and not intelligible except once in a while an "I" thought pops up, saying something like "have to make sense of this". And other times when the thoughts were clear, and seen as just thoughts, not truth or reality, and not me.

I want you to have a really close look at this. Sit quietly and close your eyes and think the thought, “clouds floated across the blue sky”. Now drop all ideas and images of what that thought points to and think the thought a few times. What is a thought?

What exactly is it that is analysing, labelling, thinking, looking? LOOK and see if you can find this someone!

I can't find this someone - but I am continuing to look. It so often seems that there is a someone...but it is just sensation, thoughts, mental images, color/image, and impulses of recognition that I think are just sensation+thought.

So what pay-off is there to hold onto the concept/belief that there must be a ‘someone’ somewhere? If you were to let go of that, what will happen? What are you afraid of?

What exactly is it that thought is talking to? Find the entity/thing that thought is talking to and let me know exactly where it is located and what it is.

Thought isn't talking to anything...it appears that thought is talking to images (images of me or images of others), but it is thought that says that.

Where is this image of ‘you’? What does this image look like?

Thought labels colours, sensations (cold/hot/pressure etc) and so on as a body - but no actual body is present. Thought does this with *everything* that seems to exist to create the 'person in the world' illusion.



Notice what is actually present in this image. Thought says it's a cartoon character called Bart Simpson, but all that's *actually* there is yellow, red, blue, white, black. There is *no* Bart present in the image at all.

Can you see that Bart is 100% just a story? The body is a story in the same way.

If thought said fairies were real…does it make fairies real?

No! Thought just overlays on experience...and yet what is it that believes that the thoughts are real, sometimes? I can't find that entity, either, as of yet.

So where do you hope to find this entity that you haven’t found as of yet? We have now been looking for some weeks and no entity has been found. Can you find anyone/anything in actual experience at all? Can you find anyone/anything in a literal thought, in sound, colour, sensation, taste or smell?


By saying that you haven't found an entity as of yet, is the same as saying "I haven't found any fairies yet, but I will keep on looking until I do". Or I will keep searching to make sure I can't find fairies - this is the same as chasing your own tail! Can you see this?

So has there ever been someone/something responsible for anything?

No - right now, it doesn't appear so. I will look more at this though.

You can go on looking until your 150 if you like hoping to find something different, although why you want to is beyond me. It’s like you want to find something so that you can say to yourself ‘yep, I was right’.

Have a look at the second hand on a clock. It seems to be changing. But can you find 10 seconds ago in actual experience? 5 seconds? 1 second? Keep noticing that change is always only a story about some experience "prior to this". But only *this* can be found. How could there have been another experience at all? Where has it gone to?

All there ever is, is right 'NOW'.

"The "me" is looking for personal freedom for itself, as something to be attained. But it is never going to find because it is always looking in the future and so dismisses the only thing happening... this moment.
"Me" is relentlessly seeking for what is not!? And what is not can be searched for forever and yet will never be found. What IS is already appearing, so no need to search. The seeking energy is like the wind... an impersonal arising that comes and goes by itself... for no one. You are not making the seeking appear and you cannot make it disappear. It's an appearance, like everything else, without an owner."

Love, Kay

[zarina]

Dear Kay,

There was no ‘you’ before this exploration started and there is no ‘you’ now, so there aren’t going to be any changes, other than a change in perspective/perception. Whatever changes seemingly appear have nothing do with a 'you'. How can it. LOOK right this moment and find 'you'. We looked at 'time' and you saw that time isn't real. So when seeing there is no 'you' 'now', then there cannot be a 'you' in the 'past' or in the 'future'.

Yes. I see this. It is actually so simple and obvious - it seems that the expectations that were hindering me were thoughts that it had to be harder, more work, not as simple, if it was obvious that wasn't it. And also that things needed to change, big ah-has, insights, shifts. So many concepts. But really as you said at the beginning of this thread, it's a recognition. Nothing special. Just what's here - no need to go looking around frantically for whether the fairy exists, and doubting it when not able to find a fairy. I went through the questions you posted before the server went down, and it was easy to respond to them.

What is a thought?

Don't know...it's just a thought.

Can you see that Bart is 100% just a story? The body is a story in the same way.

Yes. I also see the body is a story in that same way. And the "me".

So where do you hope to find this entity that you haven’t found as of yet? We have now been looking for some weeks and no entity has been found. Can you find anyone/anything in actual experience at all? Can you find anyone/anything in a literal thought, in sound, colour, sensation, taste or smell?

Such a good question. I have no answer to it - except that it strikes me as very funny - yes, where exactly did I hope to find this entity? And to the second question, there is no one to be found.

By saying that you haven't found an entity as of yet, is the same as saying "I haven't found any fairies yet, but I will keep on looking until I do". Or I will keep searching to make sure I can't find fairies - this is the same as chasing your own tail! Can you see this?

I can't quite see the chasing the tail analogy...but I see the absurdity of continuing to look for fairies when there are none to be found.

Thank you Kay!

Love,
Zarina

[forgetmenot]

Hi Zarina,

Yes. I see this. It is actually so simple and obvious - it seems that the expectations that were hindering me were thoughts that it had to be harder, more work, not as simple, if it was obvious that wasn't it. And also that things needed to change, big ah-has, insights, shifts. So many concepts. But really as you said at the beginning of this thread, it's a recognition. Nothing special. Just what's here - no need to go looking around frantically for whether the fairy exists, and doubting it when not able to find a fairy. I went through the questions you posted before the server went down, and it was easy to respond to them.

Wonderful! So how does this realisation 'feel'?

Such a good question. I have no answer to it - except that it strikes me as very funny - yes, where exactly did I hope to find this entity? And to the second question, there is no one to be found.

Terrific!

Okay, let's give these questions another go! :)

Has it been clearly seen that there is absolutley no separate individual, and never has been?
Has it been clearly seen that there has never been a separate individual that could control or own life or anything?
Is there any chooser or decider of any kind?
Is there a separate individual/entity of any kind whatsoever that could be responsible for anything at all?
Is there a separate entity that started this investigation?
Has there ever been a separate self doing anything?
Is there any confusion at all or anything you would like to address?

Love, Kay

[zarina]

Dear Kay,

So how does this realisation 'feel'?

Well, it feels good...and it feels normal. It's like that example of Santa Claus - nothing changes when you know he's not real. I guess what feels "good" is that there isn't this searching for it now, it's just known, it's just there or fact or something. Obvious, and not special, but good. It doesn't feel different, but in a way it does, and any differences seen are just thought.

Has it been clearly seen that there is absolutely no separate individual, and never has been?

Yes.

Has it been clearly seen that there has never been a separate individual that could control or own life or anything?

Yes.

Is there any chooser or decider of any kind?

No.

Is there a separate individual/entity of any kind whatsoever that could be responsible for anything at all?

No.

Is there a separate entity that started this investigation?

No. Nor is there a separate entity who is continuing the investigation right now.

Has there ever been a separate self doing anything?

No.

Is there any confusion at all or anything you would like to address?

Well, not right now...but thought keeps saying there must be!

Thank you very much Kay. Lots of love.

Zarina

[forgetmenot]

Hi Zarina,

Is there any confusion at all or anything you would like to address?

Well, not right now...but thought keeps saying there must be!

What is the AE of confusion?
What exactly is it that can be confused?
Can the label "confusion" become confused or know anything about confusion?
Can the sensation labelled "confusion" become confused or know anything about confusion?
Can the image labelled "Zarina/body" become confused or know anything about confusion?


Okay, here are the final confirmation questions. Please answer them with some detail.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience.
Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this?
What is the difference from before you started this dialogue?
Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control.
What makes things happen? How does it work?
What are you responsible for?
Give examples from experience.

6) Anything to add?

Love, Kay