The Bell rings for a guide!

[vinceschubert]

Morning JR (Sunday here)

Thought is powerful enough to change the behavior of the brain even though it is a byproduct of the brain.

How do you know that thought is a byproduct of the brain ? (seriously)

In the same vein, when you see something, where does the see-er stop and the seen start ?

What a wonderful world that we live in!

Yes, wonderful and wonder full.
Just enjoyed 9 holes of golf, life-ing is enjoyable.

The subconscious brain did.(determine the kind of thoughts that arise)

Ok, where did the subconscious get it predilection.

What is the mind? Everything. All perceptions, understandings, elaborations.

What part does thought play in each of these ?

vince

[greenrushwars]

How do you know that thought is a byproduct of the brain ? (seriously)

I suppose that I don't know that or anything, really. I'm confused, though. what is thought if not a product of the brain. I feel its presence inside of my mind.

In the same vein, when you see something, where does the see-er stop and the seen start ?

Hard to say. When looking at something, say an umbrella, there are various points in which there could be a transition between see-er and seen. Light is refracted off of the umbrella, the refraction travels to the eye where the rods and cones interpret and code the refraction to an electronic signal which the brain can comprehend. Through out this process, though, there is no one point where the seer stops and the seen starts. It is all one.

Ok, where did the subconscious get it predilection.

What is the mind? Everything. All perceptions, understandings, elaborations.
What part does thought play in each of these ?

Narration of what is being perceived. A re-telling of what is happening all around. Thought is starting to seem rather redundant. But I still don't understand. Why is it that when I look for thought I have no idea where it is, exactly?

[greenrushwars]

Ok, where did the subconscious get it predilection.

From external stimulus? Or is there no external and internal, no sub and normal consciousness.

[vinceschubert]

Gidday JR, difficult questions aye? The answers aren't as important as what occurs while looking. Be relaxed (but earnest)
Yes, external stimuli, past experience, other thought, it's all brain conditioning.

I don't know that or anything

This is a fantastic insight, though i suspect you didn't realise the fundamental importance of it.
Yes, all you have is beliefs.
Some say that the only thing you can possibly know is "I Am", but i can't be sure that this is not a dream, so i go with 'nothing can be known'
This is not a negative though, it means that everything is seen with fresh eyes, "as a child" someone said.

I feel its presence inside of my mind.

Is not the mind just a collection of thoughts ? As a process it can have no residence.

It is all one.

Another brilliance, there is only seeing.
Can there be a see-er without the seen, can there be the seen without the see-er ?

Ha, it's almost like you are falling into recognition and don't realise it.

Narration of what is being perceived

and is not that narration (verbal) thought ?

Why is it that when I look for thought I have no idea where it is, exactly?

see above.

i'm excited, you are looking straight at the gate even though it seems camouflaged to you.

[greenrushwars]

Good Evening Vince!

Yes, external stimuli, past experience, other thought, it's all brain conditioning.

So enlightenment is the process of de-conditioning through conditioning?

This is a fantastic insight, though i suspect you didn't realise the fundamental importance of it.
Yes, all you have is beliefs.

It's a realization that builds slowly and slowly. Practicing I-lessness is difficult at first but it becomes easy as a snowball rolling down a hill in the summer time.

Some say that the only thing you can possibly know is "I Am", but i can't be sure that this is not a dream, so i go with 'nothing can be known'

So knowing that "I am" equates to knowing nothing because I is nothing and nothing cannot be, it simply is nothing.

This is not a negative though, it means that everything is seen with fresh eyes, "as a child" someone said.

Aren't positivity and negativity just complications of any situation. When things are as they are there is no positive or negative but supposing that enlightenment were to be one of the two, it would have to be positive. When you go up, you must come down. But if you are on the straight line of a circle there is only what there is.

Is not the mind just a collection of thoughts ? As a process it can have no residence.

True. But humans are conditioned to think that there thoughts are there own. Nobody can hear the thoughts from others unless they are verbally communicated but the same is true of the brain. What is the mind without thoughts?

It is all one.

Another brilliance, there is only seeing.
Can there be a see-er without the seen, can there be the seen without the see-er ?

There can be but then that wouldn't be true to what it really is. Labeling something doesn't make it real because it was already real before labels came along. Fire still burned before the english language and it will burn long after... Unless it doesn't

Ha, it's almost like you are falling into recognition and don't realise it.

The gate is a long road traveled in an instant always.

and is not that narration (verbal) thought ?

It is. but is it more than a distraction?

i'm excited, you are looking straight at the gate even though it seems camouflaged to you.

I wish to deepen my practice and understanding of the gateless gate. Again, I am very glad and thankful of the many answers given.

-JR

[vinceschubert]

What happened ?
Instead of 'seeing' we started thinking/philosophising.
i don't know what enlightenment is - it doesn't matter, it is just a concept or more accurately the name for a concept.
This process (whatever it is called) certainly will lead to radical de-conditioning.
Consider the information that that organism (you) has been immersed in since birth, the outcome of which led to the current reactions to stimuli. It was all predicated on the presumption that an I (you) exists as a core essence. Even language supports this.
The de-conditioning that will occur won't be the result of effort or work, it will happen as the result of recognition. The recognition that (as it occurs) a reaction is the result of a concept mistakenly believed to be reality.

So knowing that "I am" equates

Forget the I am thing for the moment. It is a distraction.

Aren't positivity and negativity just complications of any situation.When things are as they are there is no positive or negative

yes, absolutely.
i was just saying that to accept that i know nothing has consequences that help us on this 'journey'

True.

This one (the mind consists of thoughts) deserves much more emphasis than just "true".
Haven't we just confirmed that the I is nothing more that a concept maintained by thought ?

But humans are conditioned to think that there thoughts are there own.

This is what all of the de-conditioning is about.
The narration maintains the conditioning, so is more than a distraction, though, when liberation occurs it will revert to an unattended distraction.

I wish to deepen my practice and understanding of

Forget practice and understanding for the moment. What we are doing is setting up conditions for recognition.
This needs to be more than intellectual understanding and you can practice (meditation or anything) for years and end up deeper in concepts than ever.
Answer this; Is there a 'me', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?

[greenrushwars]

What happened ?

Self gratification and loss of sight.

Forget practice and understanding for the moment. What we are doing is setting up conditions for recognition.
This needs to be more than intellectual understanding and you can practice (meditation or anything) for years and end up deeper in concepts than ever.

Recognize first that the self is non existent and the rest will follow!

Answer this; Is there a 'me', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?

No there is not in the true sense and there never was. Me and what's mine are concepts, or distractions, that conditioning has made seem real. Just as if a student was told that the color blue was really red and spent a lifetime acting under that belief. When the student realized that blue was really blue and not red, the student felt great relief. When the student further recognized that what is blue is not really blue at all but rather something that thought has labeled blue... or red... the student felt an even greater relief.

There is no self but the concepts of self and ownership are constant distractions that have been programmed since birth. There are periods of time when the supposed self waxes and wanes in terms of distraction. During the waning of the self there is great relief and harmony. The world is as it is without thought based manipulation.

This body is not mine and certainly does not belong to me. Nothing belongs to me.

[vinceschubert]

No there is not in the true sense and there never was. (a self)

JR, can you say if this is an intellectual understanding or something more ? (a 'knowing', perhaps)
How does it feel to see that what you used to think of as 'you' was a delusion ?
How would you describe it to somebody who has never heard about this illusion ?

[greenrushwars]

JR, can you say if this is an intellectual understanding or something more ? (a 'knowing', perhaps)

Something more, or less rather. A breath of truth, removal of the filter of the the self. There is nothing to know but that makes honest simple sense.

How does it feel to see that what you used to think of as 'you' was a delusion ?

Fresh. It is nice to see that the distractions of self and the drama's attached are nothing more than that. Seeing the delusion takes perception up a level. It is not that the distractions are beneath me, it is that they are me and me itself is a distraction.

How would you describe it to somebody who has never heard about this illusion ?

I wouldn't.. : P.
Perhaps relating to the person in terms of times when the illusion has caught hold of me. When I have been concerned about things that are my property and then further examining what it means for something to be mine, how that cannot be and asking them to find where me is for them. then I would explain how I is just an unnecessary composite of external stimuli that has a habit of clouding true sight. Then they would get this link for liberation unleashed.. haha.

[vinceschubert]

JR, What was the last bit that pushed you over, that made you look?

[greenrushwars]

JR, What was the last bit that pushed you over, that made you look?

The world was flat on my back pinning me to the ground and it was quite painful. I spent a long time dwelling in misery and it was easy to attach to that because the story seemed good enough. Just as I, then of course, was broken down low. very low. It is broken down now but in an entirely knew way. Being at wits end will always cause a dramatic change and this time seeing that I isn't all that it's cracked up to be. The world on my back, in short. Seeing ilessness keeps the world spinning round and round... well away from any shoulders. Unless, that is, some were laying on the ground.

There are many "problems" out there that can simply be solved by a change in perspective.

[vinceschubert]

JR, we have a procedure here (at LU - liberation unleashed) where we need confirmation from three others (post gate) to confirm that you have 'seen IT' when the guide thinks you are through.
i have asked for that confirmation and if on looking at the thread they are still unsure then they will ask you some questions to attempt clarification.
In the meantime, have a look at this doc http://liberationunleashed.com/PDF/Awakened.pdf
This is the beginning of a whole new adventure and there will be lots of experiencing that may be perplexing for you. There are others who have been through what you are currently, and are in a Facebook group (called Unleashed) where support and sharing is rife. You will be invited to join after confirmation.
Friend me on FB so i can invite you; https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id ... ef=tn_tnmn
You can always email me (vinceschubert@gmail.com) with anything, anytime.

Have a look at this video, particularly the part where he repositions the sense of self to behing himself and the bit at the end where conscious awareness of decisions occurs 6 seconds After the brain has decided.
The point of the latter being that without conscious choice you might as well relax and just appreciate What IS.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Biv_8xjj8E

Good feelings to you JR

vince

[Anki]

Hi JR... Nice job! I have a question for you.

You say:

It is not that the distractions are beneath me, it is that they are me and me itself is a distraction.

Would you explain what you mean here?

Thanks!
Lisa

[greenrushwars]

Thank you vince for your guidance. Best wishes!

Would you explain what you mean here?

Hi Lisa,

Thank you for your question. The self (me) is developed based off of a wide array of distractions. Saying that distractions are not beneath me means that the two, distractions and self, are one and the same. They go along together. So one cannot be beneath the other. Saying that distractions are beneath me gives importance to Me. which is unnecessary

[Elizabeth]

Hello,another question here. Lisa stole my first one, and I like your answer very much, I shall steal it.
This may sound odd to you, but my only reservation is that this seems a bit flat and reasoned, not a sense of real discovery, or opening into something that is without a explanation or reason.
What is behind the nothing? Please simply look at the view there (so to speak) and tell us how it looks. It really doesn't matter if words fail, please try.
Worse that can happen is bad poetry :-)
Love, Elizabeth

Thank you vince for your guidance. Best wishes!

Would you explain what you mean here?

Hi Lisa,

Thank you for your question. The self (me) is developed based off of a wide array of distractions. Saying that distractions are not beneath me means that the two, distractions and self, are one and the same. They go along together. So one cannot be beneath the other. Saying that distractions are beneath me gives importance to Me. which is unnecessary