Thought the seeking ended, but it still remains...

[Bill]

What's next? :)

try this exercise.. and take a whole day with it..

As you move around in your normal activities today, check and see if you can find a self moving the body around.
Walking, driving, typing, dressing yourself, eating, and any other normal activity.
Is there an entity living your life? Moving you around? Doing things?
Or are there just thoughts about everything, including a self/me/I, that are seeming to live your life?

Just look at the evidence. In your daily life, in all your actions, keep returning to this focus on the thoughts and what's happening. Look. Keep checking if there is something real, besides a thought, that owns and directs the body.

Report back what you find.

[Azumiq]

Hey Bill,

I've heard other people describe this as peculiar, and that is exactly what it is. Yesterday I've spent most of my day observing what happens, and yes, there is no entity moving this body around or doing any actions. It really felt like stepping out of the drivers seat and just observing life unfolding. This resulted in a threeway jojo between sheer amazement & relaxation, fear of losing control of important decisions and a desire to understand what is going on. Yet there is noone to do any understanding.
When driving, for the first time I got the Daoist doing not-doing from first hand experience. The actions seem to arise by themselves, my body performs the actions. But no one is doing the driving. The same thing with talking. The words are said, there's listening to the talking, but it all just happens by itself.

The thing you said about continually trying to focus on whether there's a self doing anything made me aware of the moments where the autopilot selflabeling happens. There are still moments, mostly when thinking or making hard decisions that I get a feeling that I'm in control. I guess those are the unaware moments that slip by, or the result of the years of conditioning.

[Bill]

Hello Menno,

Very good.. I really like how you are looking at all this.
You've seen that word a lot here.. looking.
What is its meaning in the way we use it here?
What is Looking? How do we look?

The thing you said about continually trying to focus on whether there's a self doing anything made me aware of the moments where the autopilot selflabeling happens. There are still moments, mostly when thinking or making hard decisions that I get a feeling that I'm in control. I guess those are the unaware moments that slip by, or the result of the years of conditioning.

Yes, remember we are interested in seeing 'what is'
Nothing changes really... other than our perspective.
Beliefs will come up to be looked at in their time.... and you're right.. the conditioning is life long.. so we can't really expect it to go away overnite.. or at all really. But sometimes things are just dropped when seen through.
Not that we can really force the dropping... we can't. I can tell you not to worry about any of it.. :) as its not really important that we change anything or react differently.

This is a little koan we have that I'd like you sit with for a while..
then comment on it...what is your take on it?

Its a very simple thing that needs to be resolved...
There is this thought, I,... and once you see that I is just a thought
And you see that thought itself does not think
It clicks!
Its very very simple.

[Azumiq]

What is its meaning in the way we use it here?
What is Looking? How do we look?

We look by being aware of what passes by this moment, by seeing what is happening right now. Then again, “we” do not look, looking just happens. No-one is doing any looking. I was almost inclined to type that you can also look by pointing your mind to a certain object of interest. But the mind just does what it does, and no-one is doing any pointing or focusing. That also happens by itself. This free will issue is still causing some confusion.

Not that we can really force the dropping... we can't. I can tell you not to worry about any of it.. :) as its not really important that we change anything or react differently.

There’s no-one to force the dropping right, it happens when it happens. So there is no need to worry, and like a broken record, there is no one to worry anyways. I guess the trying to change things is more of the self-improvement circlethinking. There is no control about reacting differently.

This is a little koan we have that I'd like you sit with for a while..
then comment on it...what is your take on it?

Its a very simple thing that needs to be resolved...
There is this thought, I,... and once you see that I is just a thought
And you see that thought itself does not think
It clicks!
Its very very simple.

Ever since you were a child the conditioning started, words were said: you, your, yourself. And after a while you started to believe this “I” was an entity in control of things. After looking at it now, it is merely a thought, a label of nothing, an illusion, maybe even a smokescreen. It doesn’t really point to anything, its just conditioning. It tries to point to everything, sensations coming trough awareness, this body, other thoughts. But there is no entity to point to that is actually a me, a self, an I. So next is looking at the origin of thoughts. They just come up out of nowhere. No-one is thinking these thoughts, they just arise when sensations are experienced, when more conditioning triggers them. Maybe even thoughts trigger other thoughts. There really is nothing to say about them, it’s too complex. The only thing to say is that they are a reaction of the mind, a product of the mind. If you see the mind as a thought factory, the thoughts themselves are not factories, they are merely the products of the factory. They can’t produce thoughts on their own. “I” is just one of these thoughts. And can’t think in and of itself.

[Bill]

Hello Menno,

I like what you're writing here...
Seems like many of the questions you had have just fizzled away.
This is usually how it goes.. what we thought was so important.. so critical.. we see
as just another 'trap' along the way.... something to be let go of.
And the questions just stop coming as we know there are no real answers.

Just look is what we can always easily do..
Once we see its not something complicated like we had thought.. but the simplest thing really.
You can be most assured that there will be a lot more to look at as beliefs come up.
This is a great base to start from in looking at them.
Ups and downs will be there.. just like they always have.


You feel you have seen through the self...any questions here still?
Are you still seeking anything? Any expectations still?
Is there anything you feel needs cleared up?

[Azumiq]

Yes I feel I have seen through the self, at least when it is apparent in thoughts. Yet the feeling of a self can be strong sometimes. Especially when deciding and taking action. There is still the feeling of control. Is there any control? There's no-one to excert control. There may just be doing A or doing B. The feeling of a self making the decision is just an illusion like the I thought that comes up in thinking. But as you said, this may take some time as it is built up by a lifetime of conditioning.

That takes me to the point of what I am still seeking, I guess the seeking is stopped. I know what to be aware of, direct experience and seeing the I for what it is. There is no-one to do any seeking. Beliefs will fall when their time comes. I still expect to see more and more when these illusory thoughts of "I" pop up. The feeling of "I" doing things might take some more time to actually drop. Like I said in the last message, this free will stuff is still a bit confusing.

[Bill]

The free will stuff may appear to be confusing...
Sometimes these kind of questions seem to just run into a brick wall.

Ask yourself this... If there is no self that's doing anything.... whose will is it?
Do things just happen? Or is there some entity behind the scenes pulling strings?

-----------------------

Let's go ahead with our questions we ask all ... if there's anything is left to address, it will come up from your answers to these questions.
Take your time with these... there's no rush. Give each your full attention and answer whats true for you.
You can answer one at a time... or two... or all at once.
Whatever you like.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

6) Anything to add?

[Azumiq]

Hey Bill,

I took a few days to get things into perspective and really look at what was still creating doubt. I had some nice insight into the tailchase that is looking for the self. When you believe you are a seperate self, an "I", and start looking for the "I", ofcourse you are going to drive yourself nuts. Because there was no I to begin with, there is no searching, and nothing to be found.

Ask yourself this... If there is no self that's doing anything.... whose will is it?
Do things just happen? Or is there some entity behind the scenes pulling strings?

Regarding the will: it's no-ones will. Nothing wills anything. It's just all just flowing, everything just happens. Trying to identify a cause or a causer sends you back before the big bang. And there will nothing be found. Thinking there is a seperate entity behind the scenes is just more anxiety for the fact that there is nothing to hold on to, and no-one to do any holding on.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever

There is no seperate entity in any way shape or form. There's just thoughts and feelings of I, self or me in direct experience, no entity it points to or any entity causing them. Its only different from other thoughts and feelings in that they are an illusion and that they point to nothing. There was never an I or seperate entity, but for a long time there was strong belief that there was. Just believing in the illusion. Believing in carring the watermelon. Restricting the whole perspective to seperateness.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

The illusion of seperate self is the illusion that a "you" exists as a seperate entity in a world where there is just existance. No you, no seperateness. The illusion starts when the thought "I" keeps coming up, or when the mind is conditioned to use it. This thought "I" gets connected to feeling, thinking and taking action. When feeling happens, the thought pops up, I feel. When thinking happens, I think. Eventually the belief starts that this I is a seperate entity, while it is just a thought with no existence in reality. In truth.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

When things happen by themselves, it feels distant and free. Like a selfdriving car. Like a plane on autopilot. Although there still are moments where the "I" feeling is apparent, or maybe even identification with the "I" thought happens, these moments have lost the compulsive feeling of being in control. Or rather trying to be in control. There now is a sense of calm. The seeking is mostly replaced by a wonder what is next. There might still be some seeking in the form of a feeling of anxiousness, curiousity to see what will dissolve without the illusion of I.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

There were several things that made me look. The looking at direct experience was very effective, seeing the thought of I for what it was. Seeing there was just things happening, nobody it was happening to. There was still some struggle to the end with free will, but an entry in the book Gateless Gatecrashers helped me with that last night. It just said, the feeling of an "I" is real, but there is no "I", it is just a feeling. I was probably trying to get rid of that feeling, thinking I hadnt seen through it. But it's just a feeling, it comes and goes and its not bad. It was right in front of me, but there was still some holding on.

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

There are decisions made, but no one making any, they arise out of nowhere or are a direct result of a reaction on some other experience. Thoughts may be conditioning, labels by the mind on direct experience or even spontaneous, but there is no one thinking them. Intentions the same, it's just a feeling that comes up, decisions happen, and theres no one in control. There is no "me" to be responsible. When something happens, the mind labels it, or acts according to conditioning. The quote: "you are not your mind" now makes sense actually. The mind does what it does, experiences come and go and there is only looking.

Anything to add?

There's still the thought of "was this really it?" and then theres a smile, seeing that it's just the "I" that is still wanting the whole states of conciousness, lights and theatricals. That's probably one of the things that will slowly fade now.

[Bill]

Hi Menno, your answers are so clear, and are very thorough... I ran this by our other guides and they all confirm.
It all looks good to us. You'll soon be blue on the forum and a little more of the website will open up to you.
Its been great pointing for you. You just needed a gentle push to remove some doubts that were there.
Its been a pleasure guiding you - you really guided yourself and answered your own questions.

We have some post gate support groups you'll get info on soon.
Is there anything you had a question on at this point?

[Azumiq]

Hi Bill,

Thanks a lot for taking your time to guide me. I am very grateful. I am not one to express it enough :) This new perspective is cool, everything looks and feels new. Also the feeling of boredom hasn't come to pass. I'm curious what the rest of the site will hold. For now, thank you very very much, what you are doing here is awesome.

Regards,

Menno

[Bill]

Hi Menno,

You have a nice way of expressing this, and I hope you do consider guiding here at some point.
We have several groups on Facebook and you can also use those for learning about guiding
and/or further discussion. We'll send you info on the groups.

Check out this: http://liberationunleashed.com/nation/v ... ?f=6&t=696
There are some links and info to other sites associated with LU.

Life still goes on.
If there's any more questions about anything, or if they come up, please
feel free to ask.

It's been great working with you and am really happy you feel good about it.


Namaste,
Bill