Request to be guided

[tfarrah]

States change. Can this state be allowed as well, feeling like always, with thoughts that are sticky?

When I read this, these thoughts arose: "Oh no, this is just like that other practice I was doing before, the practice of allowing what is. This LU work is nothing new or special. I'm back just where I was with that other slow practice. I knew it, I'm not going to get quick results with LU!"

Looking at what can be experienced directly, who/what says this is not as good as the state the other day and should be different?

I didn't know how to answer this question. I just sat with the question. Then a thought arose, "But it just isn't as good!"

Then I had my answer: a thought says it.

Could it be changed? Who/what could do that?

It cannot be changed. It is just part of life unfolding.

[Ghata]

Dear Terry,

it is lovely that you are so honest :-)

Then a thought arose, "But it just isn't as good!"

Then I had my answer: a thought says it.

Very good sitting with the question and very well seen! Next time thought says it isn't as good, allow the not so nice sensations to be there.

Explore them. Where are they in the body? What do they exactly feel like?

Do they have labels when felt as sensations?

Is there a feeler and something that is felt? Or is there just feeling?

Are they still uncomfortable when experienced as pure sensations, without a thought saying so?

Share what feels true.


Warm regards,
Ghata

[tfarrah]

Dear Ghata, I was so happy when I saw that you responded to my early morning (here on the Pacific coast of the U.S.) post, because I was eager for more guidance. Thoughts arise, "if I don't keep up the intensity of this investigation, I will not be successful."

Do you advise that I also read GG and/or use the Enlightening Quotes app? I haven't done either of those things since I started working with you. I've just been following your instructions.

Next time thought says it isn't as good, allow the not so nice sensations to be there. Explore them. Where are they in the body? What do they exactly feel like?

They are in the area of the right throat and jaw, a contracting. The sensations change rhythmicly with the pulsing of the blood.

Do they have labels when felt as sensations?

They don't have a judging label like "not as good". Just descriptive labels like "contracting".

Is there a feeler and something that is felt? Or is there just feeling?

Just feeling.

Are they still uncomfortable when experienced as pure sensations, without a thought saying so?

No, not at all.

[Ghata]

Dear Terry,

you are doing fine.

I asked myself this question several times today. There is no me at all. I was not correct to say that "there is a sense that the voice in the head is me".

Let this insight settle and let's look at all the facets that are not clear yet.

I suggest that you just stay with what we are doing right now. No need to be afraid that you won't "make" it. But if you feel like reading the Gatecrashers or looking into the app it's fine with me too.

Are they still uncomfortable when experienced as pure sensations, without a thought saying so?

No, not at all.

Very well seen. It's thought that makes things comfortable or not comfortable, good or not so good. The sensation themselves are just sensations. Thoughts say "I don't like it".

For keeping up the intensity, focus on looking into whether it is YOU who makes choices. What happens exactly when choices are made? Choices like how to dress in the morning, what to choose for lunch, trying to project a pleasant self to others.

How do you expect to feel after seeing through the illusion of self? In what ways would your experience change? What would or should not be there any longer?


Write what feels true.

Much love - Ghata

[tfarrah]

Dear Ghata, thank you for your message.

How do you expect to feel after seeing through the illusion of self? In what ways would your experience change? What would or should not be there any longer?

Though I know expectations are counterproductive, I do have a lot, and it seems that I can't help it. They are simply thoughts that are present. I expect to feel lighter and freer. I expect to feel less driven to maintain my self-image. As it is now, a huge amount of what I do is driven by the desire to maintain a particular image for myself and for others to see. I expect to have a more clear, direct experience of things in my environment, because the mind will not be so preoccupied with self-maintenance. I've had a clear and direct experience of the environment from time to time and I expect that this will become the norm.

I am already sometimes having some of the experience that I have expected: sometimes I find myself joyfully receiving each sensory input (including thoughts) and immediately letting go of each as not-self. During these times I am relatively free of fear. I am quite attached to these joyful times. It is a very quiet, subtle joy. Then these thoughts arise: "Ah, this is a sign that I am nearing success." Then, "wait, I shouldn't think that--even to think that will hinder my success." And then, "I don't have to worry about thoughts of success or no success. They are just thoughts."

For keeping up the intensity, focus on looking into whether it is YOU who makes choices. What happens exactly when choices are made? Choices like how to dress in the morning, what to choose for lunch, trying to project a pleasant self to others.

Generally speaking, choices of this variety are accompanied before, during, and after by an internal monologue about the choice. Lately, though, I've been seeing the monologue and the action as correlated, and happening in parallel, but not in a cause/effect relationship. Often the thought will arise, "I'm going to do X now," but I won't do it for quite a while. So in that case who is choosing when to do the action? Right now I have the intention to get up from my chair soon. Lots of vague thoughts such as, "I'm going to get up and brush my teeth." But when exactly will I do that? When I watch closely, there is no consistent relationship in time between a thought, "I'm going to do X now," and the actual doing.

I will sign off now, then watch closely as I arise from my chair.

Terry

[Ghata]

Dear Terry,

thank you for sharing your expectations so openly :-)

Though I know expectations are counterproductive, I do have a lot, and it seems that I can't help it. They are simply thoughts that are present.

Right. How could thoughts be changed though? They just come up. To know which expectations are there is what is important.

I expect to feel lighter and freer... I expect to have a more clear, direct experience of things in my environment, because the mind will not be so preoccupied with self-maintenance. I've had a clear and direct experience of the environment from time to time and I expect that this will become the norm.

Everybody feels different when they passed the gate fully so there is no way to tell how you will feel.

Certain is, states will change. You already experienced it. After seeing that there is no me at all you felt lighter and freer - the next day the feeling was gone. After the gate, ALL feelings will still be there. Also there will be times when there is clarity and times when thoughts are sticky and it seems as if the self is back. Pretty much everybody describes that.

I am already sometimes having some of the experience that I have expected: sometimes I find myself joyfully receiving each sensory input (including thoughts) and immediately letting go of each as not-self. During these times I am relatively free of fear. I am quite attached to these joyful times. It is a very quiet, subtle joy. Then these thoughts arise: "Ah, this is a sign that I am nearing success." Then, "wait, I shouldn't think that--even to think that will hinder my success." And then, "I don't have to worry about thoughts of success or no success. They are just thoughts."

This is a lovely description of a clear state. Could ALL feelings and thoughts be experienced this way?

When I watch closely, there is no consistent relationship in time between a thought, "I'm going to do X now," and the actual doing.

Right :-)

I expect to feel less driven to maintain my self-image. As it is now, a huge amount of what I do is driven by the desire to maintain a particular image for myself and for others to see.

Please write more about this. What is exactly happening when the self-image needs maintaining?

Much love,
Ghata

[tfarrah]

I expect to feel less driven to maintain my self-image. As it is now, a huge amount of what I do is driven by the desire to maintain a particular image for myself and for others to see.

Please write more about this. What is exactly happening when the self-image needs maintaining?

When I first read your post this morning, particularly the part where you expressed appreciation for my openness, I felt a warm glow of security. After reading your entire message, I felt an urge to go back and read what I had written last night. I wanted to reinforce (magnify, extend) the pleasant warm glow. I like being thought of as honest and open, and I wanted to re-read what had led you to think of me that way. I wanted to add another small chapter to the story of, "Terry is loved for being an open person." I then did go and re-read it.

As I re-read my writing, the pleasant sense of security intensified. Thoughts arose, for the most part wordless, but if I put words to them they would be, "Yes. I did a good job of being open. I am good at being open. Ghata likes me for that. I am seen to be a good human being. I am safe from the danger of being attacked."

You asked, "what is exactly happening when the self-image needs maintaining?" I feel that need if it has been some time (perhaps minutes) since the last time I did image-maintenance, or if the image has been threatened.

I had an experience Thursday of the image being acutely threatened. I got myself into this situation partly in order to practice having this experience, as unpleasant as it is. I was with a family, a mother, father, and teen daughter. The mother frequently told me what to say or not say, what to do or not do ("Please, I need you to get in the back seat now ... Don't bring up that subject, can't you see it upsets her?"). I could not simultaneously maintain all of my beloved self-images, including: "I don't let others boss me around", "I am open and honest about my feelings", "I am a congenial and pleasant friend."

I followed the mother's commands. Tension arose in my chest as thoughts swirled through my head, trying to organize all the happenings into a picture that was suitable: "I am not being open and honest about my anger ... I don't like that, I really don't like that! But I'm working on it ... I must forgive myself ... and I really don't like that I'm letting her boss me around ... maybe I can speak up about it next time ... why not speak up now? But she'll be angry at me, and I won't be able to handle it. Remember what happened the last time you spoke up?" The discomfort and swirl of thoughts did not cease until I left their company.

What exactly is happening when the self-image needs maintaining? Experiences (sensory or thoughts) arise that are in conflict with a familiar I-story. Then other thoughts arise and/or actions are taken to make the story consistent again.

Ghata, I appreciate your consistent and loving support.

Terry

[Ghata]

Dear Terry,

you are warmly welcome :-).

The I is something that needs high maintenance indeed! How could it persist otherwise?

I feel that need if it has been some time (perhaps minutes) since the last time I did image-maintenance, or if the image has been threatened....

Experiences (sensory or thoughts) arise that are in conflict with a familiar I-story. Then other thoughts arise and/or actions are taken to make the story consistent again.

Can you find in direct experience, where this image of 'you' is stored, together with all the attributes that need to be maintained? How does the image look like, what is it made of?

Where is the story of 'I' written down and chapters are beeing added? Is it a book, loose papers, a computer file?

Warm regards,
Ghata

[tfarrah]

Can you find in direct experience, where this image of 'you' is stored, together with all the attributes that need to be maintained? How does the image look like, what is it made of? Where is the story of 'I' written down and chapters are being added? Is it a book, loose papers, a computer file?

To answer this question, I bring to mind a recent instance of "I" seeming to be threatened. I see each of the components of "I" as a cross between a cloud and a white bundle. Each is separate and they are floating in the blue sky. When "I" feels threatened, one or more of the bundles is coming apart, things are falling out, it is all untidy. The things that are falling out are ugly, like the guts of an animal. I need to pull it all back together again and wrap it up into a neat smooth bundle.

When I augment the sense of "I", the image is of adding very tidy and shiny labels to the white bundles: "very good listener", "got a great job", "excellent at feeling her feelings instead of acting out". With each label the bundle becomes tidier and shinier and more awesome.

All of the bundles, floating in the blue sky, are located in and around my head and upper body.

Today I had an argument with my partner. For almost an hour my attention was very wrapped up in "I". It was quite some time before I began to try to look at the "I". I felt sad and frustrated when I tried to look. The thought arose, "I don't know how to see 'I' any more clearly than I already have!" And sensations arose that have arisen for me in the past when I've tried to look at "I": the shallow breathing, constriction in the chest, seeming inability to think, eyelids fluttering. I had noticed these same sensations earlier in the argument when I tried to drop my self interest and take in what my partner was saying. I wondered whether the shallow breathing, constriction in the chest, seeming inability to think, and eyelids fluttering were associated with "I" feeling threatened.

[Ghata]

Dear Terry,

All of the bundles, floating in the blue sky, are located in and around my head and upper body.

Do these bundles in fact exist? Could other people see the bundles around the head as well? Or are they mental images = thoughts?

Can a self-image be found when not referring to thoughts or mental images? Have a good look.


Warm regards,
Ghata

[tfarrah]

All of the bundles, floating in the blue sky, are located in and around my head and upper body.

Do these bundles in fact exist? Could other people see the bundles around the head as well? Or are they mental images = thoughts?

No, the bundles do not in fact exist. Nobody else can see them. They are thoughts.

Can a self-image be found when not referring to thoughts or mental images? Have a good look.

OK, I'll have fun looking at this today.

Terry

[tfarrah]

Can a self-image be found when not referring to thoughts or mental images? Have a good look.

I tried to take a look when the "I" felt threatened. I became quite attuned to this. The first sign that "I" feels threatened is a certain tensing in the chest and throat. I also noticed when I felt an urge to do something in order to enhance the self-image, in particular when I wanted to speak about myself.

I'd then note what aspect of self-image was involved. Some examples from today: "I don't let people take advantage of me", "I don't let people push me around", "I am an advanced meditator", "I know important people".

Then I would examine this aspect of self-image. What did it consist of?

In cases when "I" felt threatened, self-image itself was not immediately apparent. What was most prominent in my attention was the tensing and the urge to protect and/or retaliate. This urge consisted of thoughts + sensations. I would inquire, "what am I trying to protect?" Thoughts would arise like, "I can't let her believe this about me." "She just doesn't understand." "I have to show her not to treat me like this". I asked, "What is the self image I am trying to protect?" Then statements would arise such as "I don't let people take advantage of me." In these cases, images of clouds or bundles did not arise. Just sensations, then inquiry (thought), then verbal description (thought). I asked myself whether anyone other than myself could perceive those sensations or thoughts, and the answer was No. Did I find that the self-image consisted of anything besides a statement (thought)? No.

In cases when I felt an urge to enhance self-image, the specifics of the self-image were more readily apparent. For example, in our sitting group this evening I saw a book on the table authored by my friend, and I felt the urge to say, "So-and-so has been my friend since high school". I then suppressed the urge and asked myself what I wished to accomplish by saying that. I saw that I wished to add some decorations and shiny things to my cloud-bundles, and I wished to experience the warm glow of pride. I imagined that after the warm glow, a feeling of shame and confusion would arise as the knowledge settled in that I hadn't obtained anything real (because this has happened in the past).

Can anybody besides myself perceive the cloud-bundles, the decorations, the glow of pride, the shame and confusion? No. Is the self-image anything besides these thoughts and sensations? No.

[Ghata]

Dear Terry,

I loved reading the report about your scientific studies on the self-image :-)

Can anybody besides myself perceive the cloud-bundles, the decorations, the glow of pride, the shame and confusion? No. Is the self-image anything besides these thoughts and sensations? No.

Very well done!

One thing isn't clear to me. Does the self-image consist of thoughts AND sensations? Or are the sensations arising, pleasurable and unpleasurable ones, when something happens that either supports the thoughts about who you are or it doesn't support them?

Are sensations part of the self-image or does it consist of thoughts only?

How does it feel to see this?


Kind regards - Ghata

[tfarrah]

Dear Ghata,

Thank you for your response. I hope you are well.

Does the self-image consist of thoughts AND sensations? Or are the sensations arising, pleasurable and unpleasurable ones, when something happens that either supports the thoughts about who you are or it doesn't support them? Are sensations part of the self-image or does it consist of thoughts only?

I noticed, as I was writing last night, that the distinction between self-image and repercussions of self-image was not clear in my writing nor in my thinking. The lack of distinction is greatest for cases when "I" feels threatened. In those cases, as I wrote, self-image itself isn't immediately apparent and only becomes (somewhat) apparent after inquiry. In the course of unmindful daily life, the thought "I am a person that won't be pushed around" never arises but the defensive reactions do arise. How do I know for sure that this thought is there if I typically do not perceive it? What I do perceive are sensations and other thoughts. That is why I cannot say for sure that self-image is thought only.

How does it feel to see this?

So far it I have no emotions with regard to a detailed seeing of my direct experience of self-image. It seems like something I already knew, that I had already seen. OK, what I feel is satisfaction that I have completed a challenging homework exercise and may be one step closer to passing the course. The thought arises, "It does not seem as though I've seen anything new. However, it is new for me to be paying very close attention to the various aspects of 'I' every day. It is this attention that will bring me through the gate."

How is it that I knew all about self-image before, yet found the exercise challenging? I did see things a bit more deeply and in a bit more detail. I feel some frustration that self-image is not always readily apparent even when I seem to be reacting to a threat. Am I simply inferring on an intellectual level that self-image is there?

Terry

[Ghata]

Dear Terry,

thank you, I am fine.

In the course of unmindful daily life, the thought "I am a person that won't be pushed around" never arises but the defensive reactions do arise. How do I know for sure that this thought is there if I typically do not perceive it

Very good observation! If you don't perceive the thought, it isn't there. It looks like the thought doesn't have anything to do with the reaction.
Maybe things are happening in a different order and a self-image isn't the cause of it?

For example: Something happens -> uncomforable sensations arise -> reaction comes.
And then afterward a thought might say, "I am a person that won't be pushed around".

I feel some frustration that self-image is not always readily apparent even when I seem to be reacting to a threat. Am I simply inferring on an intellectual level that self-image is there?

If you can't find it, most likely it isn't there. What you refer to as self-image might be a habitual thought pattern.

Next time such a situation happens, it might also be caused through thoughts, stay with the uncomfortable sensations and watch them closely, also watch the reaction happening.

Where do the sensations arise? How do they feel? What thoughts come up and when?

When feeling the pure sensations, is there any I having the feelings or is there just feeling?

Are the sensations and reaction done by something/somebody or do they happen?


Warm regards,
Ghata