Breaking the illusion of a separate self

[nippur]

What brings you to Liberation Unleashed?:

I like the approach used here, it's something unique.

What are you looking for? What do you expect from this?:

I want to break the illusion of a separate self, if possible. I expect that the guiding process will help me somewhat, perhaps looking in a way I am not able to do myself.

What is your background in terms of seeking and inquiry?:

I have been a spiritual seeker (reading books, following gurus) for more than 15 years. Now I'm very tired and frustrated of not "getting it", of not going beyond the intellectual level.
In the last years I have been following nonduality/advaita (Ramana Maharashi/Nisargadatta etc).

I'm also rather acquainted with Liberation Unleashed having read a lot of the archives.

How ready are you to question your beliefs about who you are and see the truth no matter what? On a scale from one to ten (ten being most ready). : 10

[Alexw]

Hi Nippur,

Great to have you here and welcome to LU!
My name is Alex and I am happy to discuss this with you.

I want to break the illusion of a separate self, if possible. I expect that the guiding process will help me somewhat, perhaps looking in a way I am not able to do myself.

How would you define this "illusion of a separate self"? What comes up if I would ask you what this separate self is... why is it an illusion and how do you think you can get rid of it?

Now I'm very tired and frustrated of not "getting it", of not going beyond the intellectual level.

What would have to happen so you "get it"? What are your expectations of how waking up feels like, of how liberation is experienced? In which way would life, this moment, be different to how it shows up right now?

Kind regards
Alex

[nippur72]

Hi Alex!

thank you for accepting to be my guide :-) I am really happy! My name is Nino, btw.

How would you define this "illusion of a separate self"? What comes up if I would ask you what this separate self is... why is it an illusion and how do you think you can get rid of it?

Illusion of separate self for me is: when you believe you are your body and that you are the doer of your actions. I can see it's a sort of illusion, because the body "belongs to me", so I can't be it. But' that just at the intellectual level, the belief "I am my body" it's still there.

How I think I can get rid of it? I don't know exactly, my hope is that by looking at it, in time it will fix by itself.

What would have to happen so you "get it"?

What would have to happen I don't know, in the past I had theories but now I just don't know, I'm rather disoriented.

What are your expectations of how waking up feels like, of how liberation is experienced? In which way would life, this moment, be different to how it shows up right now?

I imagine life will be easier because you know you are not the doer and you know that things are not happening to you, like watching a movie or a lucid dream. I expect to be more in the "now", with less amount of thoughts stealing my attention. I expect it to be a life changing experience in some way.

regards,
- Nino

[Alexw]

Hi Nino,

OK, great, so lets get started :-)

Illusion of separate self for me is: when you believe you are your body and that you are the doer of your actions. I can see it's a sort of illusion, because the body "belongs to me", so I can't be it. But' that just at the intellectual level, the belief "I am my body" it's still there.

OK, lets have a good look at this belief of "I am my body".
There are two aspects in that inquiry. First we will look at what "body" really is, how it is experienced and after that we will look at this "me" that seems to own this body.

Before inquiring into the body we should establish how this inquiry will be performed.
When you look for something or inquire into something - how do you do that? Would you agree that there really is only one way of doing that - you look, listen, smell, taste, feel and think about something. All you really have at your disposal is your sense perception - which makes up this experience - plus thought about the experience.
Lets start with a little exercise - lets inquire into the nature of some object, a stone, your house keys, an orange, anything will do... get this object and put it on the table in front of you. Look at it for a minute or so. Now close your eyes. Don't touch it, but only think about how it will feel when you hold it in your hands. Think about its weight, its texture, the size and the specific form that you can trace with your fingers. Try to paint a clear picture of this experience in thought only. How did you go? Before you touch the object note how this was experienced.
Now pickup the object and again close your eyes. Feel its weight, the rough or smooth surface, run your fingers over the surface and feel how it changes from section to section.
Open your eyes and note how this was experienced. In which way did this direct experience differ from only thinking about the experience? Note what you found out about the difference between the direct experience of touch and only thinking about a sensation.

Now pickup the object and again close your eyes. Focus again on the sensation of touch. Now try to find the "me", the "I" that is doing the feeling. Is there a separate entity, a self, that is doing the feeling, the touching? Can you find anything that is separate from the sensation? Or is there simply the physical sensation - and a few thoughts that talk about the sensation, that might say "I feel the bumpy surface of an orange!" - thoughts that don't really accurately describe the sensation, but rather conceptualise a purely experiential happening?
Look at this in detail and please note what you find.

I imagine life will be easier because you know you are not the doer and you know that things are not happening to you, like watching a movie or a lucid dream. I expect to be more in the "now", with less amount of thoughts stealing my attention. I expect it to be a life changing experience in some way.

I know we all have certain expectations and we all hope that awakening, liberation or whatever we call it will be in some way beneficial for us - it should change our life into a better life etc etc... but what if liberation is not an awakening from this life into a better life, but rather an awakening to this very life? What if its not going to make you into a permanently happy and peaceful person, but it will rather make you see that life, just like the weather, is sometimes sunny, then cloudy or stormy... its simply what is, not personal, just like the weather is not "your" personal problem... still interested?

Alex

[nippur]

Hi Alex,

Before inquiring into the body we should establish how this inquiry will be performed.
When you look for something or inquire into something - how do you do that? Would you agree that there really is only one way of doing that - you look, listen, smell, taste, feel and think about something. All you really have at your disposal is your sense perception - which makes up this experience - plus thought about the experience.

agree, there is only one way of experiencing things, and it's by the mean of the senses. I'm not sure if thinking can be categorized into "sensing" though.

Lets start with a little exercise [...]

Picked up my mobile phone, looked at it for a while. Then with eyes closed I tried to feel it. It was mostly an experiences of images: images of my hand touching the screen, images of touching the buttons and the case. They were not very clear, but enough good to deliver the experience of "touching my phone". It seems like the images were picked from my past experience of handling the phone (memory that is).

Then (always with eyes closed) I picked the actual phone. Sense of touch delivered the real experience of touching, with all the intricate and vivid details. Sense of touch is accompanied with a sense of "coming from my hand, coming for there". Sometimes there is thinking of "I am touching my phone".

Comparing the two, the first it's a matter of imagining and remembering, while the second it's something more direct and real.

Now try to find the "me", the "I" that is doing the feeling [...]

Now touching my phone looking for who is doing that. If I focus on the sensation of touching, I can see only that, touching. There is touching, apparently no "me" anywhere. Anyway the focus on the touching is disturbed by thoughts, "I am touching the phone", "you are touching the phone". When that happens the focus (attention) can get lost in a chain of thoughts. If I force back the attention on the touching, sometimes the attention widens to the whole field of what's around me (my desk, chair, room etc) and I can see myself doing the action. There is a sense of "I am doing this, I am touching the phone" which is very real.

If, when focusing on touching, I try to notice there's no "me" doing it, I feel a lot of resistence, a tingling sensation in the arm and a chain of thoughts like "that's absurd", "it can't be so", "nah! you are doing this, it's so evident!".

So to recapitulate: when attention is on the sensation, all there is is the sensation itself. There's no "me" not because it's absent, but simply because isn't anything else (...uhm... does that makes sense?). But attention can't last for long as thoughts breaks in and make it wander.

What if its not going to make you into a permanently happy and peaceful person, but it will rather make you see that life, just like the weather, is sometimes sunny, then cloudy or stormy... its simply what is, not personal, just like the weather is not "your" personal problem... still interested?

Alex, whatever it is, I want to discover. Of course there is a certain disappointment hearing it put this way (opposed to "enlightement", "eternal bliss" etc.) but since it's the way life really is, I want to see it. I want the red pill, thanks :-)

Nino

[Alexw]

Hi Nino,

Well done! There are some great observations!

Now touching my phone looking for who is doing that. If I focus on the sensation of touching, I can see only that, touching. There is touching, apparently no "me" anywhere. Anyway the focus on the touching is disturbed by thoughts, "I am touching the phone", "you are touching the phone". When that happens the focus (attention) can get lost in a chain of thoughts.

When you sense something or hear something then there is the pure sensation or the sound... do "you" make this sensation or the sound happen? Or does it simply arise? Do you have any control over what is sensed or heard? Do you control this focus of attention at all?

Sit down and relax. Observe this focus of attention... see how it wanders. It simply focusses on whatever happens in the moment. Now it might focus on thought. You might even "get lost in thought"... Did you decide to get lost in thought? Or did it simply happen? When "you" come back to present moment experiencing, did you control how/when this happened? Can you control thought any more than you can control sound, can you control the focus on thought any more then the focus on sound? Or is this simply a constant flow, a constant change and movement..?
Simply sit for 10min or so and observe. Note what you find.

Alex, whatever it is, I want to discover. Of course there is a certain disappointment hearing it put this way (opposed to "enlightement", "eternal bliss" etc.) but since it's the way life really is, I want to see it. I want the red pill, thanks :-)

Ok, the red pill it is :-)
Regarding "eternal bliss" etc: Can you find anything in life that is not constantly changing? Is there something like permanence at all? Can any state, like bliss or suffering, last forever? If you find that things always change, does it make any sense to chase a permanent state? Maybe chasing happiness/bliss is itself suffering?

Alex

[nippur]

Alex,

When you sense something or hear something then there is the pure sensation or the sound... do "you" make this sensation or the sound happen? Or does it simply arise?

The sensations simply occur, a sound, a bodily sensation... sensations are just perceived. I would say they are perceived in sequential order, one at a time. There is no control over what is sensed and I don't know what will be the sensation that will come next.

Do you control this focus of attention at all?

I'm sure you'll not like the answer. If I sit still, and let focus just do whatever it wants, things seems to happen spontaneously, almost randomly. But yet I can decide to move this focus. I can focus on my hands, on my feet or on the sound of the wind coming from outside. This focus can be directed. But I have not full control of it, it's not like driving a car that responds precisely, it's more like riding a wild horse. Sometimes it goes where you want, sometimes it gets closer, sometimes it simply refuses. But still I have some control over it.

The exercise:

Sit down and relax. Observe this focus of attention... see how it wanders. It simply focusses on whatever happens in the moment. Now it might focus on thought.

If I am still, I can notice focus moving to acknowledge whatever it comes in that instant. A raw perception, often followed by a word about what has been perceived ("your stomach", "wind blowing" etc..). Focus is like a spotlight waiting to shine its light onto something.

When my attention is on the focus itself, focus seems to be continuous, what changes is only its target.

When attention focuses on thought, it's more difficult to notice it, because focus and thought seems to be the same thing.

This is what I have noticed.

You might even "get lost in thought"... Did you decide to get lost in thought? Or did it simply happen? When "you" come back to present moment experiencing, did you control how/when this happened?

getting lost in thoughts can be fight with modest success, but returning back to attention is completely out of control.

Can you control thought any more than you can control sound, can you control the focus on thought any more then the focus on sound? Or is this simply a constant flow, a constant change and movement..?
Simply sit for 10min or so and observe. Note what you find.

Again, focus and thoughts can be directed to a certain extent. The control is not 100% accurate, if I decide to think about a "pink elephant" for the next 30 seconds, I can do that although there will be some other intruding thoughts, but on average the pink elephant will be there.

Alex, this focus/attention is a strange thing. It's immaterial but feels like the "real me", the one who is driving. Is attention the same thing as consciousness?

Regarding "eternal bliss" etc: Can you find anything in life that is not constantly changing? Is there something like permanence at all? Can any state, like bliss or suffering, last forever? If you find that things always change, does it make any sense to chase a permanent state? Maybe chasing happiness/bliss is itself suffering.

I see that how "it will be" are pure speculations. Whatever will be, will be.

Nino

[Alexw]

Hi Nino,

The sensations simply occur, a sound, a bodily sensation... sensations are just perceived

Yes, well seen!

I'm sure you'll not like the answer. If I sit still, and let focus just do whatever it wants, things seems to happen spontaneously, almost randomly. But yet I can decide to move this focus. I can focus on my hands, on my feet or on the sound of the wind coming from outside.

When you decide to move the focus to the wind outside, did "you" chose the wind over the TV or the car or the tree?
Or did the idea "wind" just pop up... out of nowhere..? Try this again and move the focus "at will". Try to see where the decision is made that you focus on something - when I ask you to focus on the computer in front of you... but you simply decide to ignore it and focus instead on your hand... was this focussing really in "your" control?
What exactly is this "you" that says "I am in control!"? Is it more than just a thought describing what is apparently happening? Without the thought appearing - are "you" still in control?

When attention focuses on thought, it's more difficult to notice it, because focus and thought seems to be the same thing.

Are they really? Sit down and again simply let the focus wander.
You feel some physical sensations - is this sensation a thought? No! Thought might say "I feel a tingling in my feet", but again this thought is just a conceptual description of what seems to be happening... right?
You hear a sound... did it require thought to focus on sound or was there simply the focus - can you separate the focus from the sound or from the sensation?

if I decide to think about a "pink elephant" for the next 30 seconds, I can do that although there will be some other intruding thoughts

Who is this thinker of thought? Did this "thinker" or controller of thought decide to think about a pink elephant? How did he do that? Or did this idea of thinking about a pink elephant simply show up and then some more thoughts showed up "Pink elephant...".. "Still... Pink elephant..." .. "Haha, i can do it... Pink elephant..."...
Look at this process again and see where the thinker decides to think a certain chain of thought. Can you find this decision? Or is this decision just another thought that is completely "out of control"?

Alex, this focus/attention is a strange thing. It's immaterial but feels like the "real me", the one who is driving. Is attention the same thing as consciousness?

:-)
You could maybe call it that, yes, focussed awareness or whatever might work as well...
But is it "driving the bus"? Or IS it the bus?
Can you find anything that is not it?

Alex

[nippur]

Hi Alex,

When you decide to move the focus to the wind outside, did "you" chose the wind over the TV or the car or the tree? Or did the idea "wind" just pop up... out of nowhere..? Try this again and move the focus "at will". Try to see where the decision is made that you focus on something - when I ask you to focus on the computer in front of you... but you simply decide to ignore it and focus instead on your hand... was this focussing really in "your" control?

I've been struggling a lot on this and it's quite frustrating. When I look at this focus in a relaxed and "uninterested" way (I don't know how to describe it better), it seems that things happen by themselves, focus happens by itself on whatever it chooses to focus to. The problem is that it's not very clear, it's a subtle recognition that it's hard to grasp and make it established. On the other side, when I look at this focus with an "interest" (again, I can't describe it properly), when I look at it from the "center of me", all seems the opposite: "I do this", "I move the focus there" and so on.

What exactly is this "you" that says "I am in control!"? Is it more than just a thought describing what is apparently happening? Without the thought appearing - are "you" still in control?

I can't see it as a thought. "I am in control" is something more rooted, more like a feeling but yet different than sound, smell, sight etc. Don't know what to say.

When attention focuses on thought, it's more difficult to notice it, because focus and thought seems to be the same thing.

Are they really? Sit down and again simply let the focus wander.

Ok, I get the difference between feelings and thoughts, what I was telling above is that it was difficult for me to look for focus when focus is on thoughts. I mean looking at focus that looks for thoughts is difficult. Isn't so?

Who is this thinker of thought? Did this "thinker" or controller of thought decide to think about a pink elephant? How did he do that? Or did this idea of thinking about a pink elephant simply show up and then some more thoughts showed up "Pink elephant...".. "Still... Pink elephant..." .. "Haha, i can do it... Pink elephant..."...
Look at this process again and see where the thinker decides to think a certain chain of thought. Can you find this decision? Or is this decision just another thought that is completely "out of control"?

Well, when examined, thoughts come out of nowhere, there is no thing thinking them, at least not something I am aware of. But in normal life, out of examination, thoughts seems to be chosen. For example: I decide to think of a number; I think "13". On examination this "13" has sprout out of nowhere but still feels like I decided to think it. But if I look who decided exactly "13" and not another number, I find no decider. But still that does not convinces me of a no-decider :-(

Nino

[Alexw]

Hi Nino,

Well, when examined, thoughts come out of nowhere, there is no thing thinking them, at least not something I am aware of. But in normal life, out of examination, thoughts seems to be chosen. For example: I decide to think of a number; I think "13". On examination this "13" has sprout out of nowhere but still feels like I decided to think it. But if I look who decided exactly "13" and not another number, I find no decider. But still that does not convinces me of a no-decider :-(

Yes, ok, thoughts come out of nowhere. No one is thinking them... agree.
But you find it hard to see, that even there is no one there thinking them, that they simply arise on their own and subside on their own with no one deciding what to think next... Don't worry, this is perfectly fine :-)
Lets again look at your number exercise. Close your eyes. Think of a number between 1 and 10. Lets say 3 shows up. You might have had a thought before "Ok... great... I now decide to think 3!"... next thought comes up "3!"...
So, even the first thought seemed to come from nowhere and the number 3 was simply arising the thoughts that follow seem to be under some control, they seem to be thought "actively", they seem to happen under a certain controlling pattern, right? Do you see this slight difference between the response to the initial impulse (me asking you to think about a number) that is perfectly random and the chain of thought that follows which seems to be under control?
Is it really? Try to repeat this thought "3" (or whatever number) for a while - think "3","3","3","3","3"... try not to form the word 3 as if you would be silently speaking it, this adds an additional physical sensation to the mix which makes it a lot harder to see, but simply think 3. Again, look for the thinker, the controller. When a new 3-thought arises, did you first have to give your permission, are you doing anything so it arises? Are you letting it out of a black box so it shows up? When the thought arises, is there a follow-up or even a preceding-thought taking ownership? How does it work?

On the other side, when I look at this focus with an "interest" (again, I can't describe it properly), when I look at it from the "center of me", all seems the opposite: "I do this", "I move the focus there" and so on.

Look at the exercise you just did with following thought. Do you see any parallels?
The focus moves somewhere, you are "interested" or rather actively aware of this process, and suddenly it seems there is a you controlling it - just like the chain of thought that suddenly seems to be in control. If there would be no accompanying thoughts like "I do this", "I move the focus there" would you still believe that you are in control?
Look at this accompanying thoughts when and how they arise. Are they true or just story?

"I am in control" is something more rooted, more like a feeling but yet different than sound, smell, sight etc.

Can you please describe this feeling. Note when it arises and try to pinpoint how its experienced. Is it a certain pressure or tingling behind the eyes or in the chest..?

Alex

[nippur]

Hi Alex,

Lets again look at your number exercise. Close your eyes. Think of a number between 1 and 10. Lets say 3 shows up. You might have had a thought before "Ok... great... I now decide to think 3!"... next thought comes up "3!"... So, even the first thought seemed to come from nowhere and the number 3 was simply arising the thoughts that follow seem to be under some control, they seem to be thought "actively", they seem to happen under a certain controlling pattern, right?

right, the thought about the random number appeared out of nowhere, but when I later say "I've picked 3" this makes it feel like I've really picked it. I can see that, but:
1) it's very subtle and
2) does not help changing my belief that I'm the number picker.

Do you see this slight difference between the response to the initial impulse (me asking you to think about a number) that is perfectly random and the chain of thought that follows which seems to be under control?

yes. You asking to think and the number appear with no control. Telling the number aloud makes it look "controlled".

Try to repeat this thought "3" (or whatever number) for a while - think "3","3","3","3","3"... try not to form the word 3 as if you would be silently speaking it, this adds an additional physical sensation to the mix which makes it a lot harder to see, but simply think 3. Again, look for the thinker, the controller. When a new 3-thought arises, did you first have to give your permission, are you doing anything so it arises? Are you letting it out of a black box so it shows up? When the thought arises, is there a follow-up or even a preceding-thought taking ownership? How does it work?

I must admit I'm not able to do it without internally speaking the number. In my mind, the word and the thought-number are the same thing. So I've made the exercise the only way I can do it, by silently speaking it.

So I repeat in my mind "3... 3... 3... 3..." each time "deciding it" and looking for the controller. To a certain extent I can see there is no one behind the process, the number just appear in the field of awareness; no one is deciding it, no permission, no nothing. But most of the times, after the number has appeared there is a thought like "oh see, I decided to make THAT pause between numbers" or "yes, the number appeared, see, you did it!".

It's tricky! I wonder why seeing that there is no controller isn't enough to make it stop believing in a controller? Why looking isn't enough?

Can you please describe this feeling. Note when it arises and try to pinpoint how its experienced. Is it a certain pressure or tingling behind the eyes or in the chest..?

The feeling "i am the controller" is the same as "I am me", "me", "the me of me", "the true me" etc. They all point to the same thing. It's a bodily feeling located in the upper chest and shoulders. I can look at it precisely, it feels like "me" but yet isn't me. Sometimes I wonder "how can I be that?" because I see that I'm looking at it, that I'm witnessing it, so by logic I can't be that.

This bodily sensation sometimes rises up in the head, but mostly it's chest+shoulders.

Nino

[Alexw]

Hi Nino,

the thought about the random number appeared out of nowhere, but when I later say "I've picked 3" this makes it feel like I've really picked it. I can see that, but:
1) it's very subtle and
2) does not help changing my belief that I'm the number picker.

We will see... what will have to happen so your belief will change? What proof is required?
Do you expect that there will never be any more "I have done it!" thoughts? This will not be the case. But there can be the knowing - when it is required - that this thought is just a story, something that years of conditioning have built and something that can also slowly be dismantled. The key is to see, time and again, that these thoughts are just story thoughts, not based on direct experience. Look at it whenever the opportunity arises and the belief will crumble more and more.

I must admit I'm not able to do it without internally speaking the number. In my mind, the word and the thought-number are the same thing. So I've made the exercise the only way I can do it, by silently speaking it

Try it again by silently visualising it - not saying 3 but visualising it as a picture thought.
See if that makes a difference.

It's tricky! I wonder why seeing that there is no controller isn't enough to make it stop believing in a controller? Why looking isn't enough?

Its like seeing that Santa is not the real thing. At first you might have doubts, you see glimpses of there being something just not right, then you might see a bigger glimpse of someone simply wearing a costume or it might be enough that a friend tells you the truth. Now your belief in Santa is severely weakened and somewhen it will completely dissolve. This doesn't mean that you wont see any more Santa roaming the shopping malls. They will still be there and you might even see them without thinking "Thats a fake!" - you simply accept their presence, but it is obvious that these men in red are not the divine present bringer... do see my point?

The feeling "i am the controller" is the same as "I am me", "me", "the me of me", "the true me" etc. They all point to the same thing. It's a bodily feeling located in the upper chest and shoulders. I can look at it precisely, it feels like "me" but yet isn't me. Sometimes I wonder "how can I be that?" because I see that I'm looking at it, that I'm witnessing it, so by logic I can't be that.
This bodily sensation sometimes rises up in the head, but mostly it's chest+shoulders.

Ok, great. Try to observe this a bit more throughout your day. See how this feeling of me moves from here to there depending on what task you perform. Where is it when you are reading these words? Where is it when you drive a car? Where is it when you go to sleep, brush your teeth, eat lunch or watch TV? Aren't there many times when you are simply not aware of it at all? Maybe it only shows up when you think about it? If so, can it really be "you" or is this just a certain support system to the belief of there being a separate me, a physical support to the thought-story?
Do you remember how internally saying "3" supported the feeling of there being a decider/chooser of this thought? Maybe this feeling of me is a very similar mechanism? See what you find...

Alex

[nippur]

Hi Alex,

what will have to happen so your belief will change? What proof is required?

eh! this is an interesting question, because at intellectual level, I almost have all the proofs. But still doesn't "feel" it, perhaps I have some expectations about a big "ah!" moment of understanding e.g. like a flash of illumination.

But, If I've understood correctly, it's a gradual thing, right? Anyway, whatever will be (gradual or in a flash) it will be ok.

Try it again by silently visualising it - not saying 3 but visualising it as a picture thought. See if that makes a difference.

no way. I can't visualize numbers without words coming in the same exact moment. Also, the word seems to be the "number" more than the image (maybe because numbers are an abstract concept).

Its like seeing that Santa is not the real thing. [...] They will still be there and you might even see them without thinking "Thats a fake!" - you simply accept their presence, but it is obvious that these men in red are not the divine present bringer... do see my point?

ok, got it I think. Can it be compared to those optical illusions, you see them and they trick you, but you know they are an optical illusion? Is that similar?

Ok, great. Try to observe this a bit more throughout your day. See how this feeling of me moves from here to there depending on what task you perform. Where is it when you are reading these words? Where is it when you drive a car? Where is it when you go to sleep, brush your teeth, eat lunch or watch TV? Aren't there many times when you are simply not aware of it at all? Maybe it only shows up when you think about it? If so, can it really be "you" or is this just a certain support system to the belief of there being a separate me, a physical support to the thought-story? Do you remember how internally saying "3" supported the feeling of there being a decider/chooser of this thought? Maybe this feeling of me is a very similar mechanism? See what you find...

Ok, so this "feeling of me" seems to be the key of all. Yes, it moves depending on the situation, it can be on the hands, on the feet, I can even move it at will (at least it seems so). For example if I decide to "observe the I" or to "observe myself" then this feeling shows as a bodily sensation and stays so as long as I decide to observe it. After a while it becomes "uninteresting" because it's no longer "me" but just a physical sensation.

So do you suggest to chase this feeling of me, trying to see if I can catch the thought story associated with it? This is how the belief can be cracked?

This night while semi-sleeping in bed I tried to look at it as long as possible, I used the question "ok, now what do I think I am?" to recall the feeling of me and then I looked at it for what it really is, a physical sensation. Overall it was interesting, only I woke up very tired, like I had not slept at all.

Nino

[Alexw]

Hi Nino,

at intellectual level, I almost have all the proofs. But still doesn't "feel" it, perhaps I have some expectations about a big "ah!" moment of understanding e.g. like a flash of illumination... But, If I've understood correctly, it's a gradual thing, right? Anyway, whatever will be (gradual or in a flash) it will be ok.

Yes, better not to expect a grand event as this will just distract you from seeing the small steps and realisations that are made. Look at the trees not the forest.

Can it be compared to those optical illusions, you see them and they trick you, but you know they are an optical illusion? Is that similar?

Yes, in a way, only that the illusion is not optical but rather thought-based.

if I decide to "observe the I" or to "observe myself" then this feeling shows as a bodily sensation and stays so as long as I decide to observe it. After a while it becomes "uninteresting" because it's no longer "me" but just a physical sensation.

What changed in this moment when it became "no longer you"?
Did thought give up pretending that this sensation belongs to someone?
Was there an insight like "Ah... its just a normal physical sensation after all! Nothing special... Not me..."?

When a physical sensation is present - in which way is it different to sound being present?
If there would be no thoughts "This is my hand, my feet, my head... I am feeling my body!", but just the pure sensation, is it any more "your" sensation than a sound is "your" sound? Does the sensation itself say "I am your foot!" or is the sensation simply an innocent tingling or pressure without any inherent meaning? Simply an arising just like the whooshing of the wind or the sound of the rain?

I used the question "ok, now what do I think I am?" to recall the feeling of me and then I looked at it for what it really is, a physical sensation.

Yes, great. Just a physical sensation.

Don't ask "ok, now what do I think I am?" - you will always only receive a thought based answer. You are inviting thought to come up with a conceptual story about "What am I?"
Rather ask: "What is here now? What remains when taking away as many concepts, stories and ideas as possible?"
When you look, try to widen your focus. Don't focus on a single sensation.
Take in all of this experience - seeing, hearing, tasting, smelling, feeling and thinking. Can you find a separate I/self doing any of this experiencing or is there simply experiencing happening? When ignoring thought stories about this experience, what is there? Please describe in the most basic way what you find when looking at this pure, direct experience.

Alex

[nippur]

Hi Alex,

thank you for the guidance you are giving me, I really appreciate it. You are giving me a chance.

What changed in this moment when it became "no longer you"?
Did thought give up pretending that this sensation belongs to someone?
Was there an insight like "Ah... its just a normal physical sensation after all! Nothing special... Not me..."?

it's difficult to explain. There is a sort of "shift". I am looking at this physical sensation that feels like "me", then, after looking for a while it stops to "feel like" me and the bare sensation remains. In reality nothing has changed, the sensation is felt the same way, only the shift has changed. Sometimes, the "feeling of me" moves from the previous bodily feeling to another location (for example it might rise in the head).

I guess my problem here is not being able to notice the subtlety of the thought attached to the bodily sensation. Should I see it as a separate entity? Because I don't perceive any thoughts. Or maybe because I am expecting a thought to be internally spoken, perhaps it's a sort of silent thought. Uhm, does a such thing exist?

When a physical sensation is present - in which way is it different to sound being present?
If there would be no thoughts "This is my hand, my feet, my head... I am feeling my body!", but just the pure sensation, is it any more "your" sensation than a sound is "your" sound? Does the sensation itself say "I am your foot!" or is the sensation simply an innocent tingling or pressure without any inherent meaning? Simply an arising just like the whooshing of the wind or the sound of the rain?

I look at the bare sensations, excluding all intermediate stages, and yes the perceptions are all the same, of different kind (sound, touch) but ultimately the same. No difference between the pressure of my body on the seat and an external sound. There is no "external sound" or "my hand", just "a sound", "a pressure". But to perceive that way, I have to use a sort of trick that involves relaxation and widening of focus (e.g. focus on nothing in particular). I can't notice how thoughts are interfering, suggesting "my hand", "my feet" etc. If I keep trying hard, the only thing I notice that is not bare sensation, is a sort of mental ...fog (damn, it's so difficult to describe it!).

For example: I look relaxed at perceptions and I see how things flow by themselves, then this ..."fog"... makes my focus narrow a little bit, and I have a thought like "oh, sure, my hand"; then perhaps the focus widens again and I go back to the previous state. Sometimes this fog is perceived as located in the back of the head, but it's not very clear. Uhm, does this description make sense?

Don't ask "ok, now what do I think I am?" - you will always only receive a thought based answer. You are inviting thought to come up with a conceptual story about "What am I?"

ok, anyway I'm aware I don't have to look for an intellectual answer--I know how easily "storytelling" can be triggered :-)

Rather ask: "What is here now? What remains when taking away as many concepts, stories and ideas as possible?" When you look, try to widen your focus. Don't focus on a single sensation. Take in all of this experience - seeing, hearing, tasting, smelling, feeling and thinking. Can you find a separate I/self doing any of this experiencing or is there simply experiencing happening? When ignoring thought stories about this experience, what is there? Please describe in the most basic way what you find when looking at this pure, direct experience.

I repeated it several times, always with different outcomes so I'll try to synthesize:

I ask "what is here now" trying to keep out thoughts, really forcing them out but always keeping a presence and a wide focus.

There is the experience, made by the totality of sensations, a multitude of sensations. They are countless, I can't hold onto them, all I can do is a brief acknowledgment and let them go. One goes, another comes in. As I look for a sense of me, I can't find any, it seems I am located nowhere. It seems also as if it doesn't matter where I am.

Keeping out thoughts causes a sort of mental dullness, I am not able to reason or to think. It feels odd, strange or even dangerous. It keeps me wondering if I should do it, even if I am allowed to do it.

The mental blankness elicits drowsiness and I have to reaffirm presence to not fall asleep. Sometimes there's a sense of boredom. I can't do it for long, thoughts breaks in and exercise is over.

I tried to sum it up, but it looks like everytime I do it it's always slightly different.

Nino