Liberation vs neuroscience.

Postby **buddhawarrior** » Thu Oct 20, 2011 3:43 pm

I have some questions regarding liberation and current scientific understandings of neuroscience.

My understanding o liberation is that there is no originator of thought, yet, it is clearly obvious that without the brain thought could not happen. Atleast there would be no receiver of thought. So does that mean thought comes from the brain? Or is brain a receiver? Upon asking a neuroscientist, they are convinced that the muskrat compartments of the physical brain generate thought. Since certain parts of the brain that are damaged impair only certain thought functions.

Postby **Ingen** » Thu Oct 20, 2011 9:33 pm

Thoughts do come from the brain. They are the firing of neurons. Different thoughts compete and "try" to get as much brain-space as possible - i imagine them as competing electrical ( or chemical) waves. They are always reactions to other thoughts, perceptions, memories, and all kinds of impulses from outside.

Some thoughts are just being taken in without questioning, some are counter-reactions to other thoughts...
So I would say, the brain is a processing receiver and thought producing unit. If that makes sense.

Brain physiology, environment and everything else influences the thoughts being produced by the brain.

This is why I don't see any room for an "I". Do you?

Postby **buddhawarrior** » Sat Oct 22, 2011 7:10 am

But because the thoughts originAte from the brain, the cessation of the brain is the cessation of the I thought, therefore there is an I to begin with.

There is also a innate sense of self preservation. Why have a sense to preserve the self if there was no self. Therefore there obviously must be a self.

Postby **Ingen** » Sat Oct 22, 2011 4:48 pm

But because the thoughts originAte from the brain, the cessation of the brain is the cessation of the I thought,

The cessation of the brain ist the cessation of the body and its thoughts.

therefore there is an I to begin with.

No. Why? The body exists, thoughts exist, also thoughts about self exist. This is not the same as that a self exists. It doesn't.

There is also a innate sense of self preservation. Why have a sense to preserve the self if there was no self. Therefore there obviously must be a self.

The so-called self-preservation is body preservation. This works with or without a believe in a self. Also animals without a sense of self have a sense of self- (=body) -preservation.

Postby **longgone1** » Sat Oct 22, 2011 5:53 pm

Just trying out a different model here. What if thoughts are something naturally arising .. but we don't know where from .. No one has ever found a thought .. because there is brain activity connected with them does not mean that the brain is the source of thought ..
We don't know what the source of the universe is either ..
There is life in the body but the body is not the source of life ..
No one has ever been able to create life yet ..
In liberation there is a seeing that the ego self is created of thought and also that thought cannot think ..
So what thinks ?
Not the brain I would venture .. even if activity occurs there.

Postby **buddhawarrior** » Sun Oct 23, 2011 9:34 pm

It seems almost moot to agree or disagree about the existence of ego, self, I, or whatever it is called. It seems pretty obvious that there is something different about me and others. There are similarities, too, but never the same. Whether it's made of thought, whether we know where it comes from hardly seems practical as a discussion since the reality is the decisions I'm still faced with every day.

We can look into our atomic structures infinitely small, and cosmic radiation infinitely big, but we live here and now and still are faced with everyday life. It does not matter whether we know we are nothing or something, bills have to be paid, babies fed, and community to support.

In the absence of ego and self, finding motivation to continue becomes difficult. Being responsible and making choices for ethical and moral reasons seems silly.

The only thing that keeps me going is a constant reminder that I do not know. Is this the best way? What r other peoples experiences after liberation?

YouTube · Postby **eputkonen** » Mon Oct 24, 2011 2:22 am

I have some questions regarding liberation and current scientific understandings of neuroscience.

My understanding o liberation is that there is no originator of thought, yet, it is clearly obvious that without the brain thought could not happen. Atleast there would be no receiver of thought. So does that mean thought comes from the brain? Or is brain a receiver? Upon asking a neuroscientist, they are convinced that the muskrat compartments of the physical brain generate thought. Since certain parts of the brain that are damaged impair only certain thought functions.

Some thought comes from the brain...some thought is received by the brain.

Why do you think it is either or?

Postby **longgone1** » Mon Oct 24, 2011 6:21 am

Try to find the source of thought .. you can't. That place where thought comes from, that is the real you .. where the real you resides .. You cannot describe it .. you can only be it .. Anything which you can describe is an object and the real you is not one .. it is a mystery like life itself .. it is from and of the same place as life itself .. Looking for a physical place where thought comes from will not help on this search because this search is to find the real you which you already are ..
One way to find that real you is to see through the illusion of identification with the ego self .. a social mask to others .. and a fiction composed of thought and memory to yourself ..
What we do here is point you back to looking at that illusory self until you see that it is just another object being seen by the real self .. which is there all the time (always has been always will be) .. and where you really are ..
When you really see for yourself that you cannot be found .. you "pop" the illusion of being the illusory self ..
Don't worry about functioning in the world after this experience .. The social self keeps on functioning quite nicely .. just like the heart and the lungs do without You .. having to take care of anything ..
Thoughts will keep running in the head just like they used to but You won't be identified with them any more.

Postby **Ingen** » Mon Oct 24, 2011 8:55 am

Hi buddhawarrior,

do you consider yourself liberated? Do you see clearly that the self is an illusion? This:

It seems almost moot to agree or disagree about the existence of ego, self, I, or whatever it is called

doesn't sound like you do.

Whether it's made of thought, whether we know where it comes from hardly seems practical (…) since the reality is the decisions I'm still faced with every day.

You (and everybody else) function just fine without self, before and after liberation. Practical issues have to be resolved practically, before and after liberation. It is not a magic pill. The house still has to be cleaned. But it doesn't help having an imaginary self hanging around.

In the absence of ego and self, finding motivation to continue becomes difficult. Being responsible and making choices for ethical and moral reasons seems silly.

It is an illusion that "you" make choices, anyway. (BTW. this is completely in line with modern neuroscience). Watch your actions, thoughts and decisions. You will find out, that the "I did that"-thought is coming after the deed.

The only thing that keeps me going is a constant reminder that I do not know. Is this the best way? What r other peoples experiences after liberation?

What is it that you do not know?

What keeps *me* going is that bills have to be paid, babies have to be fed, etc. The difference to before is that I don't battle with "myself" anymore while doing all that.

Postby **buddhawarrior** » Tue Oct 25, 2011 4:08 am

Ingen, well put, beautifully said. A great reminder.

The only thing that keeps me going is a constant reminder that I do not know. Is this the best way? What r other peoples experiences after liberation?

What is it that you do not know?

What keeps *me* going is that bills have to be paid, babies have to be fed, etc. The difference to before is that I don't battle with "myself" anymore while doing all that.

Practical issues have to be resolved practically, before and after liberation. It is not a magic pill. The house still has to be cleaned. But it doesn't help having an imaginary self hanging around.

Yes, Thank you

Postby **buddhawarrior** » Tue Oct 25, 2011 4:21 am

Some thought comes from the brain...some thought is received by the brain.

Why do you think it is either or?

The Thoughts come like water over the rocks. Thoughs come, Rocks stay.

Postby **Ingen** » Tue Oct 25, 2011 5:56 am

Well, rocks don't stay forever...

But what about you? Do you exist?

YouTube · Postby **eputkonen** » Tue Oct 25, 2011 8:31 pm

Some thought comes from the brain...some thought is received by the brain.

Why do you think it is either or?
The Thoughts come like water over the rocks. Thoughs come, Rocks stay.

But you asked about the origin of where the water comes from...what do rocks got to do with it?

Postby **buddhawarrior** » Tue Oct 25, 2011 9:13 pm

Some thought comes from the brain...some thought is received by the brain.

Why do you think it is either or?
The Thoughts come like water over the rocks. Thoughs come, Rocks stay.
But you asked about the origin of where the water comes from...what do rocks got to do with it?

Poetry.

Hard to explain and break it down.

Seems criminal to explain. Which will just lead to more misunderstanding. Nothing to explain. Nothin can be said. To say thoughts have no origin is like saying water has no origin. Water exists, but the building blocks are something different. Thoughts exist. Thought changes form and have different states of existence, yet can be broken down and combined to form new things.

The game of asking for the origin of thought by using thought is a paradox, a badly formed hypothesis, unsolvable.

The essence o the game is to short circuit the brain temporarily and create an a-ha moment. To create a moment of ah, like being cracked up by a cosmic joke.

I suppose the purpose of this site is simply to provide the awakening moment. But the moment is short lasting.

Postby **buddhawarrior** » Tue Oct 25, 2011 9:30 pm

Well, rocks don't stay forever...

But what about you? Do you exist?

If I can not exist, then I must also be able to exist. Therefore I must conclude that I do exist.

Although we are changing the standard definition of "I" into something different. Not the personalized ownership of I. But something that cannot be held or owned. Therefore, no attachment can be had. In that sense, I do not exist. But that's a rhetorical question. There is no other answer. But one must redefine the meaning of the question.