Staying awake

[Ghata]

Hi Cyberogue,

The idea and concept of "I" is not real. 100% certain of that.

That means you've got it! Big smile here.

But what is useful to differentiate that you as Ghata or me as Cyber occupy different bodies, and the collection of thoughts and feelings are different? Is the concept of a "you" and "me" necessary to show that there are separate conscious beings - at least as far as our senses can tell?

Are we separate beings? What is inside you and what is outside?

Enjoy this exercise:

Sit with eyes closed for about 15 minutes.
Pay attention only to the pure sensations, without relying on thoughts or mental images:

Can it be known how tall the body is?
Does the body have a weight or volume?

In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?
Is there a boundary between the body and the clothing?
Is there a boundary between the body and the chair?

Is there an inside or an outside? If there is an inside - inside of what exactly?
If there is an outside, the outside of what exactly?

What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to?
What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?

Look very carefully, especially with the last question. Take your time, don’t rush. You can look several times during the day while doing other things (like washing hands, showering, having a short break from work, walking, etc.) before replying.

I am looking forward to hearing about your experience.

Sending lots of love,
Ghata

[Cyberogue]

Hi Ghata,

Enjoying this. Will report back.

[Ghata]

Great :-)

Lots of love,
Ghata

[Ghata]

Hi Cyberogue,


I have got two more questions for this exercise:

On present evidence, which sex are you?

In your first hand experience, which sexual orientation do you have?


Lots of love,
Ghata

[Cyberogue]

HI Ghata,

Can it be known how tall the body is?
Does the body have a weight or volume?

In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?
Is there a boundary between the body and the clothing?
Is there a boundary between the body and the chair?

Is there an inside or an outside? If there is an inside - inside of what exactly?
If there is an outside, the outside of what exactly?

The senses on their own don't give this information, so there is a sense of being untethered. And with that boundaries feel like they go down. One can't be sure where body ends (until you focus on that place) and then it seems like sensation is felt but the boundary is abstract.

Is there an inside or an outside? If there is an inside - inside of what exactly?
If there is an outside, the outside of what exactly?

This one is odd. Sound tends to feel more like its "inside" and when you look my brain says, "outside". A lot changes by seeing the world as outside of one's self. Physical sensation feels like both the edge of inside and out, but funnily enough it feels as if sensation is telling me about a pathway inside the body. The physical makes more awareness of the physicality of the body in space, which is more an inside feeling. The overall sense is that they start to merge, and that once labels disappear, then its hard to tell where the beginning or the end is as they kind of loop around each other.

What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to?
What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?

The easiest here is when i open my eyes and my brain tells me that i am seeing parts of my body, and sensations in my hands or feet give me the "boundaries". The actual experience is mediated by sight more than anything else in terms of "body". When its sensation or sound or taste, then the body becomes "disembodied" and feels less coherent.

Cyber.

[Cyberogue]

HI Ghata,

for your second question. What does present evidence mean? My answer currently would be male, because my eyes tell me that i am. And my hands concur that my body is male in the evidence of having male genitalia. Take away sight and then the concept of male is a lot more "fluid". But i am not sure that's where you want me to explore?

In my first hand experience I enjoy sex with men, and am turned on by men. Occasionally i fantasise about women, but its rare.

Cyber

[Ghata]

Hi Cyberogue,

interesting experience, isn't it?

The senses on their own don't give this information, so there is a sense of being untethered. And with that boundaries feel like they go down. One can't be sure where body ends (until you focus on that place) and then it seems like sensation is felt but the boundary is abstract.

Very well seen. In direct experience just feeling the body there are no boundaries that can be felt. Even sensations don't say anything about a border, they are just a sensation. You can't even tell whether it is inside or outside of the body.

This one is odd. Sound tends to feel more like its "inside" and when you look my brain says, "outside". A lot changes by seeing the world as outside of one's self.... The overall sense is that they start to merge, and that once labels disappear, then its hard to tell where the beginning or the end is as they kind of loop around each other.

Lovely. Yes, outside and inside start to merge without labels.

for your second question. What does present evidence mean?

It means when closing your eyes and just sense your body , can you tell from your first hand experience whether you are male or female? Which sexual orientation you have? Even which name you have?

Physical sensation feels like both the edge of inside and out, but funnily enough it feels as if sensation is telling me about a pathway inside the body. The physical makes more awareness of the physicality of the body in space, which is more an inside feeling.

I am not really getting that. Have another look . Maybe you are referring to thoughts about this? Like "brain"?


With much love,
Ghata

[Cyberogue]

HI Ghata,

Ok, i understand what you are asking. My confusion is that when you say first hand experience, i mostly relate to the visual and start from there.

Closing my eyes makes the questions seem strange because there is no male or sexuality, there isn't even a clear way to label them. I don't "feel" like a man or if i do, i have no idea what that really means. Similarly there is no place to find my sexuality other than my thoughts (of men) or my memories (of sleeping with men), but it is all very abstract at a level of just being. If i sit and close my eyes, i am not those things (and NOT not them). I guess the label is after the action, and then boxes the behaviour and attaches to the understanding of "I"

[Ghata]

Hi Cyberogue,

Closing my eyes makes the questions seem strange because there is no male or sexuality, there isn't even a clear way to label them. I don't "feel" like a man or if i do, i have no idea what that really means. Similarly there is no place to find my sexuality other than my thoughts (of men) or my memories (of sleeping with men), but it is all very abstract at a level of just being. If i sit and close my eyes, i am not those things (and NOT not them).

Brilliant! Do you remember my statement from the beginning?

There is no Cyberogue who is gay

That is what I meant. It's all just labels. It can't be found in the direct experience.


Cyberogue, you already stated it but I just want to make sure.

Can you say, with a big fat YES, it's clear that I, self, me as a separate entity is an illusion?
If not, what is unclear? What is the doubt?

If yes, are you ready for the final questions?

How does it feel to give this answer?

Sending lots of love,
Christiane

[Cyberogue]

HI Ghata,

I can quite happily say that ME AS A SEPARATE ENTITY IS AN ILLUSION. Yes.

Doubts, no. Not sure what it means, but it does make things less personal. Just feels less like anything is about me.

Cyber.

[Ghata]

Hi Cyberogue,

lovely :-). You won't be left alone with exploring this new territory after answering the questions.


Here they are:

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Can you talk about decision, intention, free will, choice and control? What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

6) Anything to add?

Please answer in full, when ready.


With lots of love,
Ghata

[Cyberogue]

HI Ghata,

Will do. Grin.

Cyber

[Cyberogue]

Hi Ghata,

I am still here, will post tomorrow. Just been getting pitch for a job ready.

Cyber

[Ghata]

Fine, Cyber :-).

With much love,
Ghata

[Cyberogue]

Hi Ghata,

Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

No – there is no separate entity.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now

.

The self is like a computer program, it consists of thoughts that become beliefs that the self is required to exist in the world, and the more thoughts and beliefs and feelings that it experiences the more the program is convinced that this “I” is at its centre. The label of all the pieces of computer code all point to the other pieces and they make it feel as if there is a coherent entity that is called “I”.
All experience seen through this filter sees events, ideas in terms of how they relate or impact on the self. The world is then all about either me, or how it affects me.
When there is an understanding that there is nothing to find, nothing behind this belief, then the world is not divided into me and “not me”. It’s just experience of the world.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

There is no reason to go looking for the self now. It has not lessened the pain of stress and emotion immediately, but as that arises, the foundation which held onto it as “mine” is nowhere to be found, so it doesn’t have the same hold or grip.

What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

4)
I gave up arguing. Trying to prove a point that I had no idea why I need to prove.

5) Can you talk about decision, intention, free will, choice and control? What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

Responsibility is heightened by a sense of awareness that the distance between “me” and “others” is not tangible. Decisions and intentions are more universal in there effect. There seems to be no change in choice around decisions.
Control is complex. Nothing to control, and all control seems to be fairly illusory, other than control of reaction to thoughts and emotions as they arise. Choice is more constantly reminding that they are temporary. However, there is still the distinct possibility to choose, and that is a way of impacting or exerting influence on the world. Responsibility comes out of that.
From experience, there is a feeling of detachment, but with concern for the way to interact with people and the world. I am looking for a job right now, and i feel the sense of responsibility is mine to find work, but the fact that I haven't is now less a reflection of who i am, its not about me in any personal way. Which makes my reaction to people who are treating me (before I would say unfairly and with disrespect) as not any kind of personal assault. That makes it easy to let go their reaction and my response. My responsibility doesn't need them to like me now. It doesn't need me to be anything other than present.

Cyber