Some advice?

[JonathanR]

Hi Michael

Maybe there is a little tension in the chest area, though it might be not necessarily connected with the looking at 'self'.
Regarding the protection mechanisms, I understand that it is a need of 'self' to be protected, and if I look into it a bit more (for example, asking myself the question 'What needs to be protected?') there seems nothing to be found.

That sounds good. It may seem that a 'self' needs proctection. That would be the case if a real entity were being threatened but 'I' has always been an illusion. I wasn't being mischeivous when I mentioned the Easter Bunny. Bring to mind Santa Claus, or a unicorn. These 'exist' in stories and, when we are young we are told they are real and we believe that...until something reveals to us that they were always a story, an idea.

Let me know how it goes with exploring the tension, whether any stronger anxiety is experienced?

Thanks,

Jon

[JonathanR]

Hi Michael,


How is it going? Let me know?

Regards,

Jon

[Michael B]

Hi Jon! I'm sorry that I didn't post anything for a few days.

I decided to 'take a break' for a while (who made such decision? lol). Now everything seems to be easier, thoughts can be seen more clearly, including the thought 'I'. There is no one to be in control anymore, thoughts arise, actions are performed; life just flows now, in this moment. All the 'what if, should have, could have' and the imaginary future scenarios became less bothersome now. Maybe there is still some craving for 'enlightenment with fireworks and sparklers', but then again it is just another thought.

Still, some idea of separateness of things is there from time to time, but the idea that everything (objects, people, thoughts, etc.) is just an ever-flowing process of life seems to be more natural. Of course, that statement is nothing but a thought as well.

'I' can not see or do or think anything, because it is just a thought, a label. There is also no 'truth' to be realized, no secret to be unveiled by 'me'. Observing, thinking and doing happens simultaneously, not depending on the presence of the 'I' thought. But still, it can't be said with 100% honesty that 'I' doesn't exist, maybe because the memories and thoughts are habitually considered 'mine'. Maybe it will change over time, but I don't really care (is 'there' even someone to care?).

Regarding your question about body sensations during the process of 'looking for self (and finding nothing)', there's not really much to it. On some occasions, there was some slight dizziness, tension in the chest area, and anxiety arising due to focusing on heart beating. Most often there is just nothing. Thank you for your concern, all your help is greatly appreciated.

Best wishes,
Michael

[JonathanR]

Hi Michael,

The break seems to have done some good. Great!

Was there a moment when something 'clicked' or did this feeling of things seeming to be easier come along gradually?

There is no one to be in control anymore, thoughts arise, actions are performed; life just flows now, in this moment. All the 'what if, should have, could have' and the imaginary future scenarios became less bothersome now. Maybe there is still some craving for 'enlightenment with fireworks and sparklers', but then again it is just another thought.

OK. Great. Unless I am mistaken you are saying that 'self' is seen through and that any manifestation of it is always just a thought?

Could you let me know the answer to the following questions?

Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

Best wishes,

jon

[Michael B]

Hi Jon,

Was there a moment when something 'clicked' or did this feeling of things seeming to be easier come along gradually?

It happens very gradually and smooth, by itself. Nevertheless, there were some pivot points or 'insights' along the way (for example, 'everything is just another thought', 'who separates and labels the experience?').

OK. Great. Unless I am mistaken you are saying that 'self' is seen through and that any manifestation of it is always just a thought?

Well, 'I' is only a thought, like many others ('breathing happens', 'bird is singing outside the house', 'there is some food in the fridge'). Even when there is thinking of 'me' doing something, I know that it's just an 'I' which gets along with experience/thoughts, i.e. like two thoughts appear at once, no matter what they are.

Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

Again, there is only a thought 'I', which is used for communication and is a part of the thinking process.

Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

It is a thought which tends to pop out or alongside any other thought, feeling or sensation. Therefore, the illusion that all these things are 'mine' arises. I'd say it starts at very young age, when we are given a name, and the idea of separateness is being passed on from our parents ('This is an apple, this is a table, this your arm. This is world, and this is you, completely different things'). Then it starts to feel like your senses (sight, hearing, etc) are some kind of 'measuring instruments' for the outside world. Experience is being divided ('I see, I hear, I breathe, I think') and illusion of the self gets stronger.
In fact, when you see that 'self' doesn't exist, everything is quite different. Maybe someday I will be able to understand and explain it, but it is not crucial; the things are fine as they are now.

How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

A difference is subtle, yet very significant. Even back then, when I started this dialogue, something was already going on. Still, it doesn't feel like I 'made it through the gate', and sometimes there is a very subtle feeling that the current state is only temporary.
Anyway, it seems more like a start rather than finish, and still some work is to be done (to be able to see clearly at all times). Probably, the 'I' thought and separateness is still present, but is now clearly seen. Something holds me back from just letting go, releasing the control, dissolving into the natural flow of things. Will it happen gradually over time?

Thank you,
Michael

[JonathanR]

Hi Michael,

And thank you for your answers.

A difference is subtle, yet very significant. Even back then, when I started this dialogue, something was already going on. Still, it doesn't feel like I 'made it through the gate', and sometimes there is a very subtle feeling that the current state is only temporary.
Anyway, it seems more like a start rather than finish, and still some work is to be done (to be able to see clearly at all times). Probably, the 'I' thought and separateness is still present, but is now clearly seen. Something holds me back from just letting go, releasing the control, dissolving into the natural flow of things. Will it happen gradually over time?

Could an 'I' 'make it through 'the gate'? Or, put another way, is there a person that can 'go through the gate'?
Even 'the gate' is an idea. Maybe a useful one but still only a an idea?

When you mention a 'state', I understand what you mean by 'very subtle'. If, instead of thinking in terms of states of mind, we turn and look for 'self', anywhere in experience, does it become clear that regardless of any temporary, changing state of mind there neither is, nor was nor will be a 'self' as had been believed?

As regards the letting go, once 'self' is seen as a thought many other beliefs that were associated with 'I' start to fall away (there is nothing for them to stick to). This is a process and unfolds as it does. Who or what is 'held back from letting go'? Looking for the 'me' that is supposed to be 'held back' is a good idea. Also, this is just a start, as you have said. The illusion of 'self' will tend to appear for a while to come, but now it can be seen as a story. There are all sorts of investigations that can be done.

If you feel ready, there are three more questions:

What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

Do you decide, intend, choose, control events in Life? Do you make anything happen? Give examples from your experience.

Anything to add?

Thank you,

Jon

[Michael B]

Hi Jon,

What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

Maybe when we talked about 'my personality' and the Easter Bunny. Recently I really decided to look for the 'self' which is supposed to hold together all the memories, thoughts, senses, observing... and I found nothing. All these things just are there as they always were, in fact, the very distinction between them is produced by the thinking mind.

Do you decide, intend, choose, control events in Life? Do you make anything happen? Give examples from your experience.

Everything is just happening. The thought pops out out of nowhere, then it transforms into some activity regardless 'what I want'. In fact, 'what I want' is just a subjective judgement, to which 'self' is attached. But everything is happening the way it supposed to be, unfolding, not depending on the presence of the 'self'.

Actually, realization of the illusion of control brings some sadness and depression. Is there anything left to do if there's no doer? Your likes and dislikes don't really matter anymore? And so on. What makes you do it, Jon? I mean helping others to 'go through the gate'. There must be some kind of idea that this is right and useful, as opposed to your other daily activities. I mean no offense, but how can you do something and be really interested and engaged if you know that the life has no meaning?

If looked from a side, the previous paragraph looks kinda funny, but still these thoughts are present from time to time, so I thought it was worth to share them.

[JonathanR]

Hi Michael

And thank you for your replies and also a couple of questions...

Is there anything left to do if there's no doer? Your likes and dislikes don't really matter anymore? And so on. What makes you do it, Jon? I mean helping others to 'go through the gate'. There must be some kind of idea that this is right and useful, as opposed to your other daily activities. I mean no offense, but how can you do something and be really interested and engaged if you know that the life has no meaning?

Well 'life has no meaning' is also a thought of a 'life' that 'has no meaning'. It is not assumed that this is the way things really are. Belief in this thought, as with any assumption about the way things are is like a coloured filter or a story influencing how things are seen. The question must be asked 'meaningless for whom (or what)?'

If all assumptions are released isn't there only this very moment, here and now, that unfolds as it does? Whether meaning or meaninglessness are imagined, as I see it the great mystery is that anything happens at all (but this is purely personal and also just a thought about what is actually happening).

Sometimes after the gate has been crossed, there can be a temporary experience of lost motivation, or fewer thoughts or of not minding about things. There can be many experiences actually but anyway this limbo does not last as life still goes on. Demands still have to be met. But also there can be an experience of wishing others to be freed from identification with a self.


Tell me what you think of what I have said. :-)

Jon.

[Michael B]

Hi Jon, everything you said rings true, and now I'm not feeling so frustrated as when I wrote the last message.

Seeing that there is no 'manager' and nothing depends on the presence of the 'self' helps to come back to the natural flow of things. But the mind is eager to know what this 'natural flow of things' is and what place does it take in it. It doesn't matter if Michael is doing something, or not, for example: writing this message to you, or ignoring what you have said.

It feels like there always is a choice and I should make it, but there is no 'I' and therefore no choice, so 'doing nothing' is perfectly ok from this perspective. But from 'mind' perspective it seems wrong and it tells me that I should do something, like get a better job, self-improve, 'try harder'. Again, I can see that those are just thoughts and nothing more, but somehow they manage to be bothersome and annoying.

Maybe this isn't it, and I made up another belief in my head about 'seeing the truth' and 'being free'?

Best regards,
Michael

[JonathanR]

Hi Michael,

Seeing that there is no 'manager' and nothing depends on the presence of the 'self' helps to come back to the natural flow of things. But the mind is eager to know what this 'natural flow of things' is and what place does it take in it.

But how can the mind know what this natural flow is? The mind is usually busy announcing or narrating about events, isn't it? But do thoughts see or know this flow? Take a look.

It feels like there always is a choice and I should make it, but there is no 'I' and therefore no choice, so 'doing nothing' is perfectly ok from this perspective. But from 'mind' perspective it seems wrong and it tells me that I should do something, like get a better job, self-improve, 'try harder'. Again, I can see that those are just thoughts and nothing more, but somehow they manage to be bothersome and annoying.

Mind says this, mind says that and there are feelings of annoyance or tension associated with the thoughts. It's great that you see these thoughts for what they are. But look at the bodily sensations associated with these thoughts. Look at where the sensation of annoyance manifests in the body. Notice the tension associated with the anger and see if is possible to find a 'self' within the sensation. Experience the sensation fully without resisting or avoiding it. Allow it to flow.

Maybe this isn't it, and I made up another belief in my head about 'seeing the truth' and 'being free'?

Good for you! You are simply noticing how thoughts appear and suggest ideas; come up with ideas about 'something is wrong' or 'what about me?' 'What about my career?' and so on. It is good to notice this stuff.

Is it 'you' that does the noticing?


Thank you,

Jon

[Michael B]

Hi Jon, thank you for your replies. Now this process became quite interesting and almost everything seems to be on the table.

But how can the mind know what this natural flow is? The mind is usually busy announcing or narrating about events, isn't it? But do thoughts see or know this flow? Take a look.

Yes, the mind could not possibly know. There is a feeling that this flow is beyond thinking and observing, and I'm kinda frustrated about the fact that I ('mind') cannot even grasp this fundamental truth of life (the idea that 'self' is not a center of the universe is quite frustrating from mind perspective as well :-) ).

Mind says this, mind says that and there are feelings of annoyance or tension associated with the thoughts. It's great that you see these thoughts for what they are. But look at the bodily sensations associated with these thoughts. Look at where the sensation of annoyance manifests in the body. Notice the tension associated with the anger and see if is possible to find a 'self' within the sensation. Experience the sensation fully without resisting or avoiding it. Allow it to flow.

The problem is, in relaxed state I can't find any bodily sensations at all, no matter which thoughts are arising. When some actual situation happens (for example, looking down from heights), the sensation of fear is pretty strong, and 'experiencing without resisting or avoiding' doesn't seem to work. I can observe it, locate it inside the body, note that death means only a death of 'self', but sensation is there, yet there is no 'self' to be found.

Is it 'you' that does the noticing?

It's not me, 'I' can't stop it. Actually, the 'I' thought can't 'do' anything at all, it just is there. Still something goes unnoticed and creates the illusion, how can this be?

Another issue is attention, this is where the illusion of control seems to be strongest. Now I can see that attention just flows from one subject to another, similiar to the thought process, yet the feeling that I control this beam of attention remains.

[JonathanR]

Hi Michael,

Yes, the mind could not possibly know. There is a feeling that this flow is beyond thinking and observing,

Good

I'm kinda frustrated about the fact that I ('mind') cannot even grasp this fundamental truth of life (the idea that 'self' is not a center of the universe is quite frustrating from mind perspective as well :-) ).

It seems as though there is something labelled 'a mind' that 'cannot grasp'. But look for mind. In immediate experience where is it?

Thoughts appear and there is an impression of an 'I' that cannot grasp.

The problem is, in relaxed state I can't find any bodily sensations at all, no matter which thoughts are arising. When some actual situation happens (for example, looking down from heights), the sensation of fear is pretty strong, and 'experiencing without resisting or avoiding' doesn't seem to work. I can observe it, locate it inside the body, note that death means only a death of 'self', but sensation is there, yet there is no 'self' to be found.

No worries if no related sensations can be found. Emotions such as annoyance can seem to endorse the idea of a separate self and it is often assumed that the emotion shows that a 'self' must have 'felt' or 'had' it? But noticing such feelings can reveal that these are simply energetic reflexes or sensations that are related to thoughts. Don't take my word for it. Explore this if possible.

Is it 'you' that does the noticing?

It's not me, 'I' can't stop it. Actually, the 'I' thought can't 'do' anything at all, it just is there. Still something goes unnoticed and creates the illusion, how can this be?

Can this be known? Perhaps sheer habit? But look...is it 'something' that creates the illusion? Is something ( a self) 'there' in the background, creating the illusion, or is the experience simply that the illusion appears? Look at this. Reason may suggest that something must create an illusion.

Surely the interesting question is, do 'you' 'create it' it, or does it appear entirely unaided?

And in that sense is there anything that 'goes unnoticed'?

Is there even a noticer that fails to notice? Is this one found anywhere in experience or is it a thought about a someone getting something wrong?

Another issue is attention, this is where the illusion of control seems to be strongest. Now I can see that attention just flows from one subject to another, similar to the thought process, yet the feeling that I control this beam of attention remains.

If there were a 'you' that did control attention, why would unwanted thoughts occur?

It can seem that attention is controlled, perhaps during complex reasoning about some problem that needs to be solved? However, even as I write this to you, can I find a controller of attention? Some thoughts are flowing, some ideas form, typing happens. Where the hell is the one that is controlling it?

Best wishes,

Jon

[Michael B]

Hi Jon,

Where the hell is the one that is controlling it?

Nowhere. Honestly, I don't know. Allow me a little digression. I want to write about the two sets of beliefs.

First one, according to which I lived whole my life: there is me, body is me, I control thoughts and actions, etc.

Second one, the no-self belief. I guess it emerged during the process of my quest for 'spiritual self-improvement' (psychology, then meditation stuff, books, and then self-inqury). Maybe it grows even during this process.

So, these two beliefs are just beliefs. What if both of them are not true?

It seems as though there is something labelled 'a mind' that 'cannot grasp'. But look for mind. In immediate experience where is it?

Yes, all the thoughts, labeling and describing of what I see and hear, all this is labeled as 'mind'. I don't know where is it.

Can this be known? Perhaps sheer habit? But look...is it 'something' that creates the illusion? Is something ( a self) 'there' in the background, creating the illusion, or is the experience simply that the illusion appears? Look at this. Reason may suggest that something must create an illusion.

Illusion is there, but no 'creator' to be found. Did it create itself? I don't know.
It seems like I must answer all your questions with 'I don't know' to be sincere. Anyway, how can 'I' know? How can I locate the 'self'? Pretty paradoxical.

If there were a 'you' that did control attention, why would unwanted thoughts occur?

And more interesting question, who doesn't want them? Seems like thoughts are evaluating other thoughts, crazy. Is there 'me' in all this process? To be honest, I don't know, maybe I should have answered 'there is no me' but it doesn't feel right.

Thank you,
Michael

[JonathanR]

Hi Michael,

.

First one, according to which I lived whole my life: there is me, body is me, I control thoughts and actions, etc.

Second one, the no-self belief. I guess it emerged during the process of my quest for 'spiritual self-improvement' (psychology, then meditation stuff, books, and then self-inqury). Maybe it grows even during this process.

So, these two beliefs are just beliefs. What if both of them are not true?

Yes, Great! That's a very good question to ask. And it is good to notice that these are two beliefs.

Earlier we were looking at whether 'I' was 'the body', or in the body. Has it been possible so far to locate a self in a body?

What you say about 'the no-self' belief is important because this can be a real confusion. It is not that we look for a 'no-self' but that we look AT no-self. There is a difference, isn't there?

No-self is not a special condition or state, though there often is a belief that this is what is meant. It is perfectly possible to go on seeking this endlessly and that only stops when the futility of this notion is seen through. How is it seen through? Look to see if a self can be found anywhere in sensation or in thoughts.

Do you see that 'self' is a belief about there being some sort of entity pulling strings from behind the scenes and that if looked for it is clear that there never was such a one? That's all it takes, a good look. Can one be found? Will one be found?

If there were a 'you' that did control attention, why would unwanted thoughts occur?

And more interesting question, who doesn't want them? Seems like thoughts are evaluating other thoughts, crazy. Is there 'me' in all this process? To be honest, I don't know, maybe I should have answered 'there is no me' but it doesn't feel right.

Why should you answer 'there is no me' if it feels false? In any case the experience is often that there is an illusory 'me', but is it clear that this is always a thought about a 'me'?

Thank you,

Jon

[Michael B]

Hi Jon,

Do you see that 'self' is a belief about there being some sort of entity pulling strings from behind the scenes and that if looked for it is clear that there never was such a one? That's all it takes, a good look. Can one be found? Will one be found?

Sometimes I get the funny feeling that seeing through illusion is the simplest thing ever. All you have to do is nothing, and then even the thought of 'looking for self' is clearly seen, something like a dog chasing it's tail. This process gets noticed, and another thought arises 'I (the dog) will never catch it'. Then, frustration kicks in as a thought/emotion which may be manifested in the body (feeling of anger, tension).

But who is doing all this? Is there someone pulling stings? It just happens by itself. Is there a 'self' to be found anywhere in sensation or in thoughts? Immediately and involuntarily, an answer 'yes' arises. But when I take a closer look at this sensation or a thought it kind of melts away, with no 'self' to be found behind it.

Another issue here is the self-identification. I, Michael, is seen as a character with all his feelings, emotions, thoughts. Yet I still identify myself with him, taking the experience seriously and personally. Well, in other words, I am Michael :). It feels both comfortable and uncomfortable at the same time. But what causes discomfort? I must take a closer look at this and explore it more deeply.

Oh, and by the way, happy holidays!

Best wishes,
Michael