When you see a rope as a snake, the rope is still a rope in reality and the fear is a bodily reaction to a wrong perception. When the rope is seen as a rope, the fear is gone together with the illusion of the snake.
There is only a change in perception when you really 'see' that the ‘I’ is an illusion.
Seeing is not trying to change anything, it is just seeing reality as it really is.
Al the rest is speculation from the mind.
Who is in charge of your life?
I may be awake but I'm still groggy
Re: I may be awake but I'm still groggy
The mind likes to think that it is in control, but the reality is that every event in this life was caused by preceding events. There is no separate being making decisions.When you see a rope as a snake, the rope is still a rope in reality and the fear is a bodily reaction to a wrong perception. When the rope is seen as a rope, the fear is gone together with the illusion of the snake.
There is only a change in perception when you really 'see' that the ‘I’ is an illusion.
Seeing is not trying to change anything, it is just seeing reality as it really is.
Al the rest is speculation from the mind.
Who is in charge of your life?
Re: I may be awake but I'm still groggy
Does the experiencing of being require an 'I'?
Is there a separate individual who is experiencing?
Do you exist as an individual?
Is there a separate individual who is experiencing?
Do you exist as an individual?
Re: I may be awake but I'm still groggy
No it doesn't. I think I see it directly now. My identity as Sean is just a character - a tool my mind uses to navigate the world. What I am is just what is happening in the present moment. There is nothing behind the curtains observing, there is only experience experiencing experience. I don't exist separate from anything else, only relative to everything else. It is very subtle, yet powerful. I was expecting something more earth-shattering, but this may be it.
Re: I may be awake but I'm still groggy
Let's check how clear you are seeing it, for yourself and for me.
To see if some points still need to be cleared up.
Could you answer this questions as clear as possible in total honesty and in your own words.
1) Is there a 'me', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?
2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works.
3) How does it feel to see this?
4) How would you describe it to somebody who is very interested, but has never heard about this illusion?
5) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?
To see if some points still need to be cleared up.
Could you answer this questions as clear as possible in total honesty and in your own words.
1) Is there a 'me', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?
2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works.
3) How does it feel to see this?
4) How would you describe it to somebody who is very interested, but has never heard about this illusion?
5) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?
Re: I may be awake but I'm still groggy
To be clear, I'm not 100% sure this is *it*, but here it goes, just so you can see where I'm at...Let's check how clear you are seeing it, for yourself and for me.
To see if some points still need to be cleared up.
Could you answer this questions as clear as possible in total honesty and in your own words.
1) Is there a 'me', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?
2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works.
3) How does it feel to see this?
4) How would you describe it to somebody who is very interested, but has never heard about this illusion?
5) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?
1) There is this body, and there is the character that attempts to describe this body and its history, but the character exists nowhere in physical reality. It only exists as a pattern of thought. There is this experience, but it there is no entity that is me experiencing it. Am I the experience? "I" describes this body I suppose.
2) The illusion of separate self arises when the mind recognizes another part of the mind, and recognized their coherence. It is sort of like a mind trick that the mind uses to stay motivated. There is the fear of losing one's identity, but there is no actual identity to be lost. The old identity thoughts are still trying to hold on to control of my being but it feels like a deadly blow has been dealt to it. This is why I'm hesitant to say that I'm fully awake. My habits of thought have not changed - consciously it still operates as Sean, but I recognize that that is not "me".
3) It doesn't really feel different - the ego is still there, and egoic thoughts are still arising, writing this perfectly is difficult because I keep typing "I" and catching myself, but it is hard to communicate otherwise. It's just that I don't have doubt about it anymore , and I'm not worried about what might happen. I don't see things more vividly.
4) The conscious mind needs a way to trick itself into having motivations and fears - the way it does this is by threatening itself. "If I don't do this, I will die and everything will end." But there is nothing there that can die. There is this character that you have been playing all your life, and you've become convinced that you are that character. The truth is that the character is just a figment in the imagination of experience. If my body falls apart, the character doesn't die because it was just a character all along. The body just changes form in death.
5) "I" looked back toward where I would tend to "locate" myself and saw the barrier of resistance, then peeked around it and saw nothingness.It's as if I called out my mind's bluff and realized that it had nothing to show for it. I looked behind that veil of fear and resistance that was supposedly concealing my essence, and I realized that it was guarding nothing. It was keeping me captive by threatening me with empty threats.
I'm not sure that anything has really changed except for my conscious idea of who/what I am. I'm not so sure that I'm enlightened - Sean surely isn't enlightened.
Re: I may be awake but I'm still groggy
It seems that the mind is just hesitant to let itself be as it is. It doesn't want to give up the search. But it is slowly realizing that there is nothing to find because there is no one to find it. There is not some idea out there which will make the mind suddenly feel complete. Honestly there is some enjoyment that comes from looking deeper, so maybe the mind doesn't need to stop searching...
Re: I may be awake but I'm still groggy
Thank you very much for your openness and honesty in answering the questions.
I sense a change in attitude to this inquiry now that you are aware that you don’t have seen it yet.
You are standing right in the gate. Focus, openness and honesty will help you through the gate.
We are not looking for ‘enlightenment’. You may continue the search for that after liberation, having gone through gateless gate, if you then still like to do that.
Liberation is to ‘see’ what is real and what is unreal.
So let’s focus on that.
What is real:
Direct experience with the five senses. A thought is real, not the content.
What I call a character is real. A character is life living itself as the body, with is likes and dislikes, talents, abilities and inabilities. The character doesn’t change much during life. To differentiate this character from other characters it received the name ‘Sean’ like in a play.
What is unreal:
The content of a thought. Thus the sense of self, the personality or individuality.
The personality or individuality is created at a certain age, initiated by the social surrounding.
The personality is urged to conform to the social laws, later to improve itself and to be in control of life. The individuality is never satisfied. The ‘I’, sense of self idea are created together with this personality.
So look closely at what is unreal and don’t believe it anymore.
You don’t have to change anything, just look at it.
Like once you believed in Santa Claus and now that you know that he is not real, even you can still see this performer, you don’t count on him anymore.
Keep looking!
I sense a change in attitude to this inquiry now that you are aware that you don’t have seen it yet.
You are standing right in the gate. Focus, openness and honesty will help you through the gate.
We are not looking for ‘enlightenment’. You may continue the search for that after liberation, having gone through gateless gate, if you then still like to do that.
Liberation is to ‘see’ what is real and what is unreal.
So let’s focus on that.
What is real:
Direct experience with the five senses. A thought is real, not the content.
What I call a character is real. A character is life living itself as the body, with is likes and dislikes, talents, abilities and inabilities. The character doesn’t change much during life. To differentiate this character from other characters it received the name ‘Sean’ like in a play.
What is unreal:
The content of a thought. Thus the sense of self, the personality or individuality.
The personality or individuality is created at a certain age, initiated by the social surrounding.
The personality is urged to conform to the social laws, later to improve itself and to be in control of life. The individuality is never satisfied. The ‘I’, sense of self idea are created together with this personality.
So look closely at what is unreal and don’t believe it anymore.
You don’t have to change anything, just look at it.
Like once you believed in Santa Claus and now that you know that he is not real, even you can still see this performer, you don’t count on him anymore.
Keep looking!
Re: I may be awake but I'm still groggy
How can I see that which is unreal? All that I see is the truth.
Re: I may be awake but I'm still groggy
Or rather... "all that is seen is truth" :P
Will the thoughts still refer to themselves as I? it seems so habitual, as if the mind knows no other way to model this world through thought. In linguistic thoughts, every verb needs a subject, and "I" seems the only way to satisfy it.
Will the thoughts still refer to themselves as I? it seems so habitual, as if the mind knows no other way to model this world through thought. In linguistic thoughts, every verb needs a subject, and "I" seems the only way to satisfy it.
Re: I may be awake but I'm still groggy
The Santa Claus analogy is confusing to me because it seems so entirely an intellectual/understanding idea. There is seeing of the evidence for no-self, which results in thoughts arising that the self is an illusion. Perhaps the expectations that were held of what this would be like were far off - its as if I had already seen but the mind didn't want to think that it is so simple. But there still arises the idea that maybe something is missing - there is still desire to "know". There is the urge to say that "I see it" but then the counterthought that there is no I to see it - language makes this very difficult to express.
Re: I may be awake but I'm still groggy
Sorry for all the multiple posts, but the mind keeps realizing things.
When the mind thinks that there is something to attain in "enlightenment," it thinks that there is something out there that will make the self feel complete. but the reality is that this desire to "be complete" just creates artificial holes in what is already a perfectly complete experience. "I" have been striving to make "Sean" complete since the day he was dreamt up. He will never be complete because he is just a story. The completeness already exists in the present moment - there is nothing missing.
When the mind thinks that there is something to attain in "enlightenment," it thinks that there is something out there that will make the self feel complete. but the reality is that this desire to "be complete" just creates artificial holes in what is already a perfectly complete experience. "I" have been striving to make "Sean" complete since the day he was dreamt up. He will never be complete because he is just a story. The completeness already exists in the present moment - there is nothing missing.
Re: I may be awake but I'm still groggy
Nice remarks, continue questioning as you are doing.
every verb needs a subject, and "I" seems the only way to satisfy it.
Is this not a learned habit ? Try for the fun to write something about yourself without using ‘I’.
It’s not difficult at all.
There is seeing of the evidence for no-self
Is this no-self not also a concept like the self? Is there really something like self/no-self?
The completeness already exists in the present moment - there is nothing missing.
Is there an other possibility in the present moment than what is present? Only the mind comes there after with his objections to what is/was. When this movements of the mind are falling away what is left?
every verb needs a subject, and "I" seems the only way to satisfy it.
Is this not a learned habit ? Try for the fun to write something about yourself without using ‘I’.
It’s not difficult at all.
There is seeing of the evidence for no-self
Is this no-self not also a concept like the self? Is there really something like self/no-self?
The completeness already exists in the present moment - there is nothing missing.
Is there an other possibility in the present moment than what is present? Only the mind comes there after with his objections to what is/was. When this movements of the mind are falling away what is left?
Re: I may be awake but I'm still groggy
Is this not a learned habit ? Try for the fun to write something about yourself without using ‘I’.
It’s not difficult at all.
You're right, it does seem to just be habit. Thoughts keep arising with the subject as I, but when the mind recognizes this, it sees the inconsistency and "rephrases" the thought to make more sense. "Ouch, my leg hurts" becomes "ouch, there is a pain in the leg".
Is this no-self not also a concept like the self? Is there really something like self/no-self?
Yes, it seems that they are just two perspectives on the same reality. The self perspective just seems entirely contrived, as if it has no actual basis in reality, although it does have some use to the human mind.
Is there an other possibility in the present moment than what is present? Only the mind comes there after with his objections to what is/was. When this movements of the mind are falling away what is left?
Even those movements of mind concerning seeking and "figuring it out" exist in the present moment - they aren't inherently "bad," they just create feelings of incompleteness. They aren't much fun to consider anymore. When those movements of mind do not arise, there is only experience/perception devoid of concerns for the past or future, and it is very...unconcerned. There seems to be no point to seeking the "ultimate knowledge" anymore.
It’s not difficult at all.
You're right, it does seem to just be habit. Thoughts keep arising with the subject as I, but when the mind recognizes this, it sees the inconsistency and "rephrases" the thought to make more sense. "Ouch, my leg hurts" becomes "ouch, there is a pain in the leg".
Is this no-self not also a concept like the self? Is there really something like self/no-self?
Yes, it seems that they are just two perspectives on the same reality. The self perspective just seems entirely contrived, as if it has no actual basis in reality, although it does have some use to the human mind.
Is there an other possibility in the present moment than what is present? Only the mind comes there after with his objections to what is/was. When this movements of the mind are falling away what is left?
Even those movements of mind concerning seeking and "figuring it out" exist in the present moment - they aren't inherently "bad," they just create feelings of incompleteness. They aren't much fun to consider anymore. When those movements of mind do not arise, there is only experience/perception devoid of concerns for the past or future, and it is very...unconcerned. There seems to be no point to seeking the "ultimate knowledge" anymore.
Re: I may be awake but I'm still groggy
The sense of self still arises, but there is no self to be found behind it. The sense of self has lost its power, lost its foundation, but it still arises once in a while. There is the expectation that it will continue to dissipate, though, as the mind settles in to its new perspective. Sense of self seems just to be habit at this point. Still stuck in old habits, but they are recognized as habit.
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