Seeing (thru) the ego

[stephaneHKG2015]

So what 'i/me mine' thoughts are happening right now? Now look at some other part of the current experience, a tree, the sky a chair whatever holds some interest- what thoughts arise about that?
Whilst doing this maybe going back and forth for a bit let me know if anything is happenning making the 'i' thoughts seem different, more special or more personal than the other thoughts?

If I look at the ongoing “I,me” thoughts, I see that they are oriented towards either the past (“How could I forget my keys there”) or the future (“need to go to collect them tomorrow”) whereas the looking at my plants reveals thoughts that are present-based (“flower coming out, soil looking dry”) and then the “I,me” goes: “ when we move next week, how are we going to deal with the plants ?”). So the content of the “I,me” thoughts feels time-related.

So tell me, right now without comparing to the content of thoughts about past experiences or stories heard about awakening- what part of the experience, sensory and thoughts isn't appearing as it is, 100% full on, exactly and perfectly manifesting as what it is appearing as?
What else could be happenning?
I see that what is expected is an imaginary something else that has been heard/ read / learned. What occurs in experience is the only possible way given circumstances.

Are sounds a problem?
Are colours a problem?
Are sensations a problem?
Are tastes a problem?
Are smells a problem?
Are thoughts a problem?
For what?
Sounds, sensations, thoughts can be unpleasant. What is feeling those unpleasant experiences? No separate feeler but experiences are felt nevertheless.

Where and when did you learn this idea?
Yes, i can see that it has been learned through reading and listening to “spiritual material”.

Can you see if the current experience is compared and judged like this, that that IS the seeking itself?
It’s not totally clear yet: is it that this seeking is a form of suffering? By that I mean dissatisfaction with what actually is and thirst for what is not here and now?

Is is possible to see clearly that these labelling/evaulating/judgement thoughts about experience aren't accurate or truthful in the way that was assumed before?
Is that ok?
It’s getting easier to see the power they have over experience and by seeing that they are part of it, not more important than other bits / thoughts/ sensations/ images etc.

Is life being lived BY anything?
Or just is?
Are thoughts being produced by anything?
Or just are?
Are experiences being experienced BY anything?
Or just are?
This whole experience of life would be better translated with present continuous verbs: living, thinking, looking, etc. is happening.
For experiences to occur there is no need for a separate experiencer but differences in the quality of experiencing (otherwise hearing, seeing and feeling would appear identical).
So experiencing is going on through a contrast of different modalities. Not very poetic ;)

[Hannah B-T]

If I look at the ongoing “I,me” thoughts, I see that they are oriented towards either the past (“How could I forget my keys there”) or the future (“need to go to collect them tomorrow”) whereas the looking at my plants reveals thoughts that are present-based (“flower coming out, soil looking dry”) and then the “I,me” goes: “ when we move next week, how are we going to deal with the plants ?”). So the content of the “I,me” thoughts feels time-related.

Yes, well noticed.
And is that 'time' that those thoughts refer to a real thing existing- 'TIME' ? Or all just more interpretation/imagination?

I see that what is expected is an imaginary something else that has been heard/ read / learned. What occurs in experience is the only possible way given circumstances.

Nice.

Sounds, sensations, thoughts can be unpleasant. What is feeling those unpleasant experiences? No separate feeler but experiences are felt nevertheless.

Felt by what?
Where does the unpleasantness end and the feeling of it begin?
Take a fresh look.

Yes, i can see that it has been learned through reading and listening to “spiritual material”.

Good.
One analogy here is- read the map and follow the pointers, but don't get obsessed by the map itself and how poetically or eloquently it describes the destination. Just go there and find out.

life would be better translated with present continuous verbs: living, thinking, looking, etc. is happening.

Yes language is very limited, you are doing great with the English by the way :)
The structure of language demands talking about objects and subjects. That's fine. I can also talk about fairies and unicorns and time travel. But it would be clear if i'm talking about that stuff as if it really existed, or not right?

but differences in the quality of experiencing (otherwise hearing, seeing and feeling would appear identical).
So experiencing is going on through a contrast of different modalities. Not very poetic ;)

Not necessarily... ;) but that i would say is beyond the scope of LU, like also looking further at objects/external world/time/space...

This way of looking and unlearning can go as far as possible..or not. there are groups and further spaces to explore further.
But here we concentrate really on the subject/self aspect.

So is there anything still not clear about the nature of that now?
Or is there enough confidence to answer the standard set of questions we ask here at LU? It can help pull things together and I get some other guides to look and ask further questions if necessary, which can be helpful.

[stephaneHKG2015]

is that 'time' that those thoughts refer to a real thing existing- 'TIME' ? Or all just more interpretation/imagination?
Thoughts are about imaginary places, all sorts except the “here-now”.

Felt by what?
Where does the unpleasantness end and the feeling of it begin?
Take a fresh look.

Ok, I’m hearing this unpleasant sound: there’s no separation between the unpleasantness and the feeling, it’s only one experience. And then, there’s an after-thought occurring: “oh, I wish it could stop right now”.

So is there anything still not clear about the nature of that (subject/self aspect) now?
It’s clear that a separate self can’t be found in direct experience. There’s something that remains sort of equivocal though: when I’m looking at direct experience, there’s listening, feeling, imaging, thinking etc. And at the same time, there’s a sense of a background / presence/ stillness in which experiences seem to arise and disappear.
I can see that the distinction between the two is more an idea about the experience rather than the description of the experience itself where all is happening together/ at the same time. But has this distinction any relevance here ?

Is there enough confidence to answer the standard set of questions we ask here at LU?
Sure we could try and see if there is more clarity now. Thanks.

[Hannah B-T]

There’s something that remains sort of equivocal though: when I’m looking at direct experience, there’s listening, feeling, imaging, thinking etc. And at the same time, there’s a sense of a background / presence/ stillness in which experiences seem to arise and disappear.

I can see that the distinction between the two is more an idea about the experience rather than the description of the experience itself where all is happening together/ at the same time. But has this distinction any relevance here ?

I would say it may mean there will be more resonance with awareness based teachings/ pointers to continue to look further from here.
But just checking about the nature of this presence/stillness as it appears now, sit quietly and be clear on what you mean by those terms- then answer these very simply, yes/no answers are is fine but if yes give me more detail.

Is this in any way boundaried?
limited?
located?
or personal?

Sure we could try and see if there is more clarity now. Thanks.

ok- here are the questions. don't be distracted by any thoughts about this conversation- just answer them with a fresh look and see what response emerges....can do it in parts if needed

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?



2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.



3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.



4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?



5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from recent day to day experience.



6) Anything to add?

[stephaneHKG2015]

But just checking about the nature of this presence/stillness as it appears now, sit quietly and be clear on what you mean by those terms- then answer these very simply, yes/no answers are is fine but if yes give me more detail.
Is this in any way boundaried? No, boundaries are blurry
limited? located? It’s pure here and now but it seems to cease when there’s some mental agitation i.e. thoughts appearing quickly.
or personal? no, it feels prior to “I” thoughts.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

I can’t see a separate entity in direct experience, just “I, me, my” thoughts. There was never one, only an assumption that was learned and never examined.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

I would call this illusion “reification”: by that, I mean turning processes into an entity. There’s a lot of activity going on moment after moment: moving, feeling, thinking, hearing,… In the experiencing of those, “something happens” (brain at work?): there’s an entity “I, self” that seem to appear like an optical illusion. By precisely looking at experience, this illusion is seen through: there’s no hearer in hearing, no self is doing the thinking, feeling don’t require a feeler.
The dynamic of it in my experience lies in the thinking process: there is an ‘I” thought, and then another one, a sensation is felt, a thought about this sensation occurs and here arises another serie of thoughts. This sequence of events is mistaken for a story about a self as a separate entity, stephane. In other words that stephane character is an interpretation/ idea about discrete experiences that are being lived.Selfing occurs without a self, a selfer. Strange really.
I'll leave the rest for tomorrow as it's getting late here.
BTW a bit unsure about the 4th: could you rephrase it for me. Thanks.

[Hannah B-T]

Is this in any way boundaried? No, boundaries are blurry

So the answer here is yes, there are boundaries to this prescence/stillness, but they are 'blurry'?

So tell me about these blurry boundaries in detail, describe what they consist of, what is the experience of that? Are these blurry boundaries made of sensations? images? thoughts?

Is there an inside and an outside to this presence/stillness?


re question- 4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look? - could be rephrased as 'has there been one particular moment or pointer(s) that allowed the illusion to be seen through? What was that like?

Thanks

[stephaneHKG2015]

So the answer here is yes, there are boundaries to this presence/stillness, but they are 'blurry'?
So tell me about these blurry boundaries in detail, describe what they consist of, what is the experience of that? Are these blurry boundaries made of sensations? images? thoughts?
This presence is felt as a certain kind of sensations (there’s a quality of heaviness and sweetness). When attempting to find clear limits to these sensations, they can’t be found. So boundaries are more an idea about this experience of stillness limited to a body/mind. Because it is thought that it is this body/mind that is experiencing that stillness/ presence. So there’s on one hand the experience without boundaries and on the other hand some ideas/ representations which include a body/mind + its boundaries + an experience + time.

Is there an inside and an outside to this presence/stillness?
No. No boundaries, inside or outside within experience. It’s only when thinking about the experience itself occurs that there are attempts (thoughts) to find a beginning, an end, limits, qualities and so on.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.
There are moments of clarity. It feels lighter to be able to see that the separate self is an unnecessary assumption. So there no need to overcome it, battle it for decades… Selfing still goes on and it is now seen that there was some expectation that it (the selfing) would vanish too.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?
The looking for the searcher. The question: Is there a self that is going to see there is no-self?

[Hannah B-T]

Selfing still goes on and it is now seen that there was some expectation that it (the selfing) would vanish too.

Talk me through how you are using the word 'selfing' here.
what is 'selfing'?

Looking forward to the final 2 questions.

[stephaneHKG2015]

Talk me through how you are using the word 'selfing' here.
what is 'selfing'?
I use selfing to describe the ongoing activity of thinking where “I,me” is the main content of the thoughts. “I have to wake up early tomorrow”. This kind of thinking, if/ when left unnoticed and unquestioned, seems to produce a sense of a separate self.

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from recent day to day experience.
Decision, intention, that’s what has changed since I gained some clarity about the separate self illusion. I started noticing a few weeks ago in a concert that seeing and hearing were literally out of control, witnessing my eye balls rolling all around. Untill that moment, I had the impression that I was directing my attention at will, focusing here and there. But what stoke me was that all the sense activity was happening on its own so to say.
So there are mixed feelings about this realization: on one hand, there is a sense of relief: it (life) doesn’t need a ”me” to happen, I’m not in charge of life. On the other hand, there’s some insecurity about that: what then if I can’t even control this body/mind? thoughts? Can’t! Feeling? Not possible ! I’m sometimes surprised by what comes out my mouth now, more than ever. Talking occurs. So it sometimes feels like being on a top of a rocket and knowing that no one is doing the driving…
I also see the need for some external points of reference (like precepts for Buddhists) because the sense of responsibility could well vanish for a “well, that’s the way it is, life is just living” that can justify anything. Even though there is no self as a separate entity, I believe that there are still some conditioning, habits or tendencies that are operating and what is is not necessarily occurring without creating suffering.

6) Anything to add?
Not for the moment.

[Hannah B-T]

ok, I'm going to take this dialogue to the other guides for any further questions, this can take a day or so, so bear with us.

thanks

[Hannah B-T]

A guide asks this:

you say- 'There are moments of clarity. It feels lighter to be able to see that the separate self is an unnecessary assumption.'

Would you describe it as a conclusion that there CAN'T be a self (since you haven't found one) and now you are looking at things from this standpoint of view? Or would you rather say 'I can see clearly that there is no self? In other words, did you understand that there is no self intellectually or did you experience it?

[stephaneHKG2015]

you say- 'There are moments of clarity. It feels lighter to be able to see that the separate self is an unnecessary assumption.'
Would you describe it as a conclusion that there CAN'T be a self (since you haven't found one) and now you are looking at things from this standpoint of view? Or would you rather say 'I can see clearly that there is no self? In other words, did you understand that there is no self intellectually or did you experience it?

Well, I could agree with all the above statements: it’s a conclusion that comes after some looking at different levels of experience (at the thought level too: so it’s partly an intellectual understanding). Am I looking at things from this viewpoint? Well, my perspective has changed from: “I” have to obliterate the “I” that is looking at things
so that things can be really looked at” to “Looking is happening along with occasional thoughts about a looker”.

[Hannah B-T]

Ok, there are no further questions- I will send you a PM with what happens next. It's been a pleasure.

There are spaces and opportunities to look further with me or others regarding any new doubts/fears or confusion that pops up, and I encourage you to take advantage of that.

[stephaneHKG2015]

Hi Hannah,
pleasure was mine. I feel like I have gained a good deal of clarity in the process. I look forward to carrying looking and reporting about how the experiencing is going on. Thanks again.