Would be thankful for guidance.

[JonathanR]

Hi Earnest,

. I tried again just now, and there’s more clarity. The sound is happening, and sometimes there’s an image/thought of a moving car attached, but I seem to be able to distinguish between the sound and the thought. I need to practice this some more!

Good idea. Actually you are already doing very well by noticing the coming and going of a thought-image and seeing that it is not the same as the direct hearing.

I’m not sure what you mean by “me” in quotes here. As during the hearing exercise, when looking at the white surface and noticing there was no separation between the surface and the seeing of it, I couldn’t locate any "me" doing the seeing at that moment. There was just the colour/the seeing of it. I hope this is an answer to the question.

A very good answer! You're quite right. There is no 'me' that 'experiences' this seeing of colour, is there? Is a self found in either exercise of hearing or seeing or is there just the direct sensation accompanied the occasional thought about it?

One thing I’ve been noticing over these days is that clarity gained in a particular exercise often proves to be unstable. I can be clear regarding something at one moment, and have less clarity about the same thing a few hours later, or the next day. I imagine this may be entirely natural, but thought I’d better mention it to you.

Thanks for mentioning this. It can take a little focus and practice to tune into the direct experience of sensation. But it is definitely worth looking at this, at how sensations here and now are experienced and how a commentary tends to overlay this experience, 'saying' things about it, (or just about anything else).

Also, I thought I’d mention to you that I often find myself doing a sort of spontaneous investigation when lying down. I just go where it takes me, and often don’t remember the details afterwards! For example, earlier today I felt confusion, and very unclear and a little discouraged about my progress. I went into quite an intense (though fairly relaxed) investigation, and after a couple of hours I saw that there is no “I” acting independently. The insight gained, though, seems to have moved into the background now and, as I mentioned in the previous paragraph, I won’t be surprised if it has disappeared by tomorrow!

This sounds really good. It can seem as though some insight is gained and then lost.
But couldn't that only happen if there were a 'me' gainig insight and capable of losing it?

That there never has been a 'self' becomes clearer as it is glimpsed. All that is required is looking

Place your hand on a table and experience the immediate sensation of this, possibly a pressure, perhaps a coolness of a warmth where hand meets table?

Close your eyes and tune in to this feeling. With eyes closed is 'a hand' experienced? Does a 'self' experience 'hand on table'.? Or, is there the sensation alone? (We can assume that one or two thoughts may appear during this. The sensation is actually happening but whatever the thoughts are about, do they alter this experience? Are they part of the sensation? Do they make anything happen?


Jon :-)

[EarnestP]

Hi Jon,

Thanks for your reply.

I haven't had time to reply "today" (still Sunday, in my head), and am off to get some sleep now. I hope to post a fuller reply this (Monday) evening.

I've been trying the sensation exercise you outlined in your last post.

Have a good day,
Patrick

[JonathanR]

Hi Earnest,

Thanks for the message. I will await your post.

Best wishes,

Jon

[EarnestP]

Hi Jon,

I apologise for the delay in replying. I’m sometimes busy until late on Sunday nights, and then tired on Monday nights!

Is a self found in either exercise of hearing or seeing or is there just the direct sensation accompanied the occasional thought about it?

When I do the hearing exercise in a calm setting, or the seeing exercise on a single object, it is usually clear that there is simply the direct sensation, with no sign of a self perceiving it. Sometimes thoughts, including thoughts of a self, seem to be “fused” together with the sensation, and it takes a few moments or minutes to get clarity, but generally with a little patience it is clear that there is no self perceiving the colour or the sound.

But it is definitely worth looking at this, at how sensations here and now are experienced and how a commentary tends to overlay this experience, 'saying' things about it, (or just about anything else).

Yes, I’m finding this sort of looking extremely useful!

It can seem as though some insight is gained and then lost.
But couldn't that only happen if there were a 'me' gainig insight and capable of losing it?

I don’t get this. I’m hoping that at some point there will be a stable recognition that there is no self, and that this will come about through seeing into the ways that thought is “creating” a sense of self. Is there something I’m misunderstanding here?

Close your eyes and tune in to this feeling. With eyes closed is 'a hand' experienced? Does a 'self' experience 'hand on table'.? Or, is there the sensation alone? (We can assume that one or two thoughts may appear during this. The sensation is actually happening but whatever the thoughts are about, do they alter this experience? Are they part of the sensation? Do they make anything happen?

There is just the sensation. Yes, there are also thoughts/images of a self perceiving the sensation, and other thoughts (e.g. images of the hand, the table), but when I look I can see that the sensation does not depend on those thoughts – it is appearing regardless. So no, the thoughts are not a part of the sensation, and they do not affect it.

That there never has been a 'self' becomes clearer as it is glimpsed. All that is required is looking

That’s encouraging! As I go through my day, I’m often noticing that physical actions do not seem to require a self at all; and when I notice this, there is a sense of relief. Sometimes I’m noticing it about thoughts, too, but I’m finding it easier to see with physical activity. In fact, it seems to be bringing an increased general sense of calm and relief - as if on some level there may be the beginnings of a recognition that somehow everything is just happening. It’s not being consciously seen yet, though, except though these glimpses.

Thanks, Jon.

Patrick

[JonathanR]

Hi Earnest,

I apologise for the delay in replying. I’m sometimes busy until late on Sunday nights, and then tired on Monday nights!

That's OK. No problem.

When I do the hearing exercise in a calm setting, or the seeing exercise on a single object, it is usually clear that there is simply the direct sensation, with no sign of a self perceiving it. Sometimes thoughts, including thoughts of a self, seem to be “fused” together with the sensation, and it takes a few moments or minutes to get clarity, but generally with a little patience it is clear that there is no self perceiving the colour or the sound.

Very good.

Yes, I’m finding this sort of looking extremely useful!

It is.

JonathanR wrote:
It can seem as though some insight is gained and then lost.
But couldn't that only happen if there were a 'me' gainig insight and capable of losing it?


I don’t get this. I’m hoping that at some point there will be a stable recognition that there is no self, and that this will come about through seeing into the ways that thought is “creating” a sense of self. Is there something I’m misunderstanding here?

You are spot on about seeing through the way thoughts present impressions of self. It's a perfectly reasonable hope.

There can be stable recognition. But it may not be experienced the way it has been imagined that it should, Would that bother you?

Who, or what, would 'gain or loose insight'? Is there a 'self' that can gain insight? If so where is that self?

That’s encouraging! As I go through my day, I’m often noticing that physical actions do not seem to require a self at all; and when I notice this, there is a sense of relief. Sometimes I’m noticing it about thoughts, too, but I’m finding it easier to see with physical activity. In fact, it seems to be bringing an increased general sense of calm and relief - as if on some level there may be the beginnings of a recognition that somehow everything is just happening. It’s not being consciously seen yet, though, except though these glimpses.

This is great. What you are describing can seem extremely subtle.

When you say 'everything is just happening', how do you see this in relation to the idea of 'making choices' or 'taking decisions' or 'free will'?


Best wishes,

Jon

[EarnestP]

Hi Jon,

There can be stable recognition. But it may not be experienced the way it has been imagined that it should, Would that bother you?

Right now I feel motivated to continue this investigation to its conclusion. But I’ve no idea whether I’ll be disappointed with the way it will show up! Up to now I’ve imagined that this looking would eventually lead to dropping the belief a separate self . If that happens, then even if I’m bothered I don’t think I’ll be complaining!

Who, or what, would 'gain or loose insight'? Is there a 'self' that can gain insight? If so where is that self?

If there is no self, then there is no self than can gain insight, or drop a belief. But I’ve been imagining that the seeing of no self would stabilize in some way, though I’m not sure what this might look like. This is interesting, and I wonder what unfounded assumptions I might be making here!

When you say 'everything is just happening', how do you see this in relation to the idea of 'making choices' or 'taking decisions' or 'free will'?

So far, I’ve noticed this “everything just happening” mostly for short periods in relation to the way the body moves without being directed by a prior “self”. If I’m attentive I can see that the thought of a self comes during or just after a movement, and claims authorship. I can often see the same thing, though a little less clearly, with regard to thoughts: they come on their own, and somehow these too are accompanied by a thought of a self that is producing them (I’m not sure how it works with thoughts – it seems as if there is a background thought of a self at the same time as other thoughts). Regarding choices, I’m finding it a bit more difficult to see that they just happen of their own accord. But when I look, I can increasingly see (with simple choices like standing up from a sitting position, for example) that they are like thoughts – the decision happens without a self behind it, but the thought of a self, or a thought something like “I am making this decision” often seems to accompany it.

This continuing search for a self is gradually becoming more interesting by its very fruitlessness!

Thanks, Jon.

Patrick

[JonathanR]

Hi Earnest,

Right now I feel motivated to continue this investigation to its conclusion. But I’ve no idea whether I’ll be disappointed with the way it will show up! Up to now I’ve imagined that this looking would eventually lead to dropping the belief a separate self . If that happens, then even if I’m bothered I don’t think I’ll be complaining!

Ha ha. Yes.
We definitely guide towards the realisation that self is an illusion and this amounts to dropping the belief in 'self'. There is the famous Father Christmas analogy. Probably you are familiar with this? But anyway, as young kids we believe that there is a real entity dressed in red that comes down the chimney? But then, later on it somehow becomes clear that this is not a real guy but a story about an imagined person. Once this has been seen there is no returning to beleving in the real entity. 'Self' is like this.

If there is no self, then there is no self than can gain insight, or drop a belief. But I’ve been imagining that the seeing of no self would stabilize in some way, though I’m not sure what this might look like. This is interesting, and I wonder what unfounded assumptions I might be making here!

Probably the following doesn't appply to you but sometimes it can be imagined that we are looking for a 'no self', (as if there were a thing or condition or even entity called 'no self'). There is a difference between this and looking and noticing that there is quite simply no self, anywhere in experience. The latter is what you have been doing, increasingly successfully. The absence of 'self' can be noticed, but do you see how a quest for the appearance of a 'no self' could be very disappointing?

Another confusion can be the idea that 'Insight' must something very special indeed, (spiritual x-ray vision or whatever). Sometimes, when some anticipated enormous shift in perception don't obviously occur there can be a false conclusion that 'nothing has changed'.

So far, I’ve noticed this “everything just happening” mostly for short periods in relation to the way the body moves without being directed by a prior “self”. If I’m attentive I can see that the thought of a self comes during or just after a movement, and claims authorship. I can often see the same thing, though a little less clearly, with regard to thoughts: they come on their own, and somehow these too are accompanied by a thought of a self that is producing them (I’m not sure how it works with thoughts – it seems as if there is a background thought of a self at the same time as other thoughts). Regarding choices, I’m finding it a bit more difficult to see that they just happen of their own accord. But when I look, I can increasingly see (with simple choices like standing up from a sitting position, for example) that they are like thoughts – the decision happens without a self behind it, but the thought of a self, or a thought something like “I am making this decision” often seems to accompany it.

Excellent. Well done!

Where you talk of a 'background thought of a self' look again at this. Such long-established assumption or habit of thought as 'me' linked to so many other thoughts over years, as well as emotions might well seem to appear as a background. If possible, look for an actual self in that background. Really look and see if one can be found.

As for choices and decisions, there are exercises to explore these. You seem to have come up with one of your own that is quite effective. But here is another:

Place both hands face down on a table in front of you. In a moment one hand will raise in the air but not the other. Look for the very moment that a 'choice' is made as to which hand is going up. See if it is possible to find the exact moment that a 'choice' happens. Is it possible to see it as it is being made?


Best wishes,

Jon

[EarnestP]

Hi Jon,

I need to get some sleep before work in a few hours, so I will reply to your post tonight (Friday), I hope.

I've continued looking for a self that makes decisions, without success! And I've had a few goes at the "hand raising" exercise you suggested.

Best wishes,
Patrick

[JonathanR]

Hi Earnest,

No worries with posting. Do it when you can.

The hand-raising is a good exercise. Here is another one, borrowed from another guide, to try out

If you look at the palm of the right hand. Take a good look. At some point, the hand will flip to show the back of the hand. Try to find either:
- a you that told it to flip
- the exact moment the flip was initiated and how
Do it several times and watch the hand flipping.
Can you find a source for the flipping. Really look.


Best wishes,

jon

[EarnestP]

Hi Jon,

I’m replying later than I’d hoped!

There is the famous Father Christmas analogy. Probably you are familiar with this? But anyway, as young kids we believe that there is a real entity dressed in red that comes down the chimney? But then, later on it somehow becomes clear that this is not a real guy but a story about an imagined person. Once this has been seen there is no returning to beleving in the real entity. 'Self' is like this.

Yes, I’m familiar with this analogy, and it does help me to understand what to expect.

Probably the following doesn't appply to you but sometimes it can be imagined that we are looking for a 'no self', (as if there were a thing or condition or even entity called 'no self'). There is a difference between this and looking and noticing that there is quite simply no self, anywhere in experience. The latter is what you have been doing, increasingly successfully. The absence of 'self' can be noticed, but do you see how a quest for the appearance of a 'no self' could be very disappointing?

This is interesting. I’ve no idea if I’m unconsciously seeking some sort of “no self” state. In any case, the seeing of the absence of a self through the various exercises you’ve suggested has been engaging enough in itself, and this motivates me to continue.

Place both hands face down on a table in front of you. In a moment one hand will raise in the air but not the other. Look for the very moment that a 'choice' is made as to which hand is going up. See if it is possible to find the exact moment that a 'choice' happens. Is it possible to see it as it is being made?

I’ve tried this exercise a few times. I can’t pinpoint the exact moment a choice is made. A sense of volition suddenly seems to “emerge” regarding one hand or the other, analogous to the way thoughts appear, usually accompanied by a thought like “I’m doing this.”

f you look at the palm of the right hand. Take a good look. At some point, the hand will flip to show the back of the hand. Try to find either:
- a you that told it to flip
- the exact moment the flip was initiated and how
Do it several times and watch the hand flipping.
Can you find a source for the flipping. Really look.

Strangely, I’m having more difficulty with this exercise – sometimes there is difficulty pinpointing when the flip begins as in the above exercise, other times it seems as though there is an “I” deciding to flip the hand – I’m finding it hard to distinguish the thought “I am doing this” from the feeling of initiating the action. I’ll continue with this exercise (I’ve been tired over the past couple of days and will try again when I’m rested).

Best wishes,
Earnest

[JonathanR]

Hi Earnest,

. Strangely, I’m having more difficulty with this exercise – sometimes there is difficulty pinpointing when the flip begins as in the above exercise, other times it seems as though there is an “I” deciding to flip the hand – I’m finding it hard to distinguish the thought “I am doing this” from the feeling of initiating the action. I’ll continue with this exercise (I’ve been tired over the past couple of days and will try again when I’m rested).

Actually it does help not to be tired when attempting any of this. But also, there are plenty of other exercises I can suggest if this hand-flipping proves confusing.

Best wishes,

Jon

[EarnestP]

Hi Jon,

I tried this exercise some more today:

If you look at the palm of the right hand. Take a good look. At some point, the hand will flip to show the back of the hand. Try to find either:
- a you that told it to flip
- the exact moment the flip was initiated and how
Do it several times and watch the hand flipping.
Can you find a source for the flipping. Really look.

I didn’t really get much more clarity. Sometimes I could sort of glimpse that there was no “I” that told the hand to flip, other times I just seemed to draw a blank – there was some brain fog, and it was difficult to separate the “I” thought, or the “I’m doing this” thought, from the act of flipping itself.

I found the other exercise (two hands on the table) difficult today, too. I couldn’t see the moment a “choice” was made, but there was a general lack of clarity.

I got a good sleep last night, though still feel tired today, so perhaps the tiredness is contributing to the lack of clarity, as you suggested.

Generally a frustrating day with regard to this looking. Several times I had the thought “I’m never going to get this.” Still motivated to continue, though!

If you have any other exercise I’d be happy to try that too.

Thanks, Jon.

Best wishes,
Earnest

[JonathanR]

Hi Earnest,

ok. I understand your frustration. Let's return to what you said here:

So far, I’ve noticed this “everything just happening” mostly for short periods in relation to the way the body moves without being directed by a prior “self”. If I’m attentive I can see that the thought of a self comes during or just after a movement, and claims authorship. I can often see the same thing, though a little less clearly, with regard to thoughts: they come on their own, and somehow these too are accompanied by a thought of a self that is producing them (I’m not sure how it works with thoughts – it seems as if there is a background thought of a self at the same time as other thoughts). Regarding choices, I’m finding it a bit more difficult to see that they just happen of their own accord. But when I look, I can increasingly see (with simple choices like standing up from a sitting position, for example) that they are like thoughts – the decision happens without a self behind it, but the thought of a self, or a thought something like “I am making this decision” often seems to accompany it.

Everything you wrote here indicates a willingness to look directly at experince to realy check what is going on. That's just what is needed.

PIck a number at random between one and ten. Did 'you' choose that number? Or did it simply appear?

Many things happen that appear to be the result of a 'choice' but in that case shouldn't it be possible to catch the 'chooser' in the act of making 'choices'?

Can the 'chooser' be found?

Go and make a cup of tea or coffee. Once you have done that, come back and read the rest of this...

Was there a choice to stand up and to move in the direction of the kitchen? I'm guessing the kettle was filled with water or simply switched on? Was there a choice or 'decision' to do this or did it simply flow?


Look at 'time' as well. Thoughts may pop up about 'me going to get a cup of tea'. A future is imaginied in which a 'chooser 'makes a 'choice'. But isn't this all in the realm of imagination? And after the tea is made the thought 'that was me that chose to make the tea' can appear. A past is imagined in which a 'chooser' had 'chosen'. But actually, in any present moment, right now, is it ever possible to find this illusive point of choice, or a chooser doing it?


Best wishes,

Jon

[EarnestP]

Hi Jon,

PIck a number at random between one and ten. Did 'you' choose that number? Or did it simply appear?

The number simply appeared - there was no sense of choosing it.

Many things happen that appear to be the result of a 'choice' but in that case shouldn't it be possible to catch the 'chooser' in the act of making 'choices'?

Yes, it should be possible – if not every time, at least some of the time.

Can the 'chooser' be found?

With regard to “choosing” a number, no chooser was found. I repeated the exercise a few times, and each time the number simply appeared – there was no chooser seen choosing it. With regard to the previous hand-flipping exercise, I can’t say a self chose to turn the hand, but there was a strange sort of confusion, so I couldn’t, at the time of doing the exercise, say there was no chooser either. It was unclear.

Go and make a cup of tea or coffee. Once you have done that, come back and read the rest of this...

Was there a choice to stand up and to move in the direction of the kitchen? I'm guessing the kettle was filled with water or simply switched on? Was there a choice or 'decision' to do this or did it simply flow?

At the start there was some lack of clarity with this exercise too.. But then, as I moved around, it was clear that there was no inner chooser giving directions. The body’s actions flowed and there was a flowing interaction between impulse/thought (e.g. to go to the cupboard and open the tea jar) and the action itself, and things seemed to get done on their own. There was no need for a choosing self. I found this exercise easier than the hand-flippng one – for some reason it was easier to see there was no chooser while I was moving my whole body around, engaged in a simple sequence of actions.

Look at 'time' as well. Thoughts may pop up about 'me going to get a cup of tea'. A future is imaginied in which a 'chooser 'makes a 'choice'. But isn't this all in the realm of imagination? And after the tea is made the thought 'that was me that chose to make the tea' can appear. A past is imagined in which a 'chooser' had 'chosen'. But actually, in any present moment, right now, is it ever possible to find this illusive point of choice, or a chooser doing it?

Yes, I noticed a thought that “I” had chosen to make tea, and some thoughts that “I” decided to perform the actions involved in making tea. However at any given moment no “I” doing the choosing could be seen.

I performed some other simple tasks as well (moving some things around), and could not find a chooser – the body moved around, interacting with thoughts/impulses, and things just seemed to flow without the intervention of a chooser or decider. And as you suggested in relation to the tea-making exercise, there were thoughts about an “I” choosing in the future and the past.

I’m finding this kind of exercise very useful!

Thanks, Jon.

Earnest

[JonathanR]

Hi Earnest,


You are doing really well.

Today I have to be brief but I'll just say a couple of things.

Don't wory about the hand-turning exercise., Other exercises are working well so it isn't a problem that this one didn't.

You did notice how thoughts of an 'I' 'choosing' in a 'future', can appear as well as thoughts about a 'me' that 'chose' in a 'past'? Does an actual 'self', an entity, appear at any moment (to do choosing) or are these thoughts always ABOUT an assumed 'me'?

Look at 'decisions'. If you drive, go for a journey and notice at any moment if there is a controller 'deciding' to change gear or accelerate, check mirrors etc, or if these things tend to flow along without much reference to a 'me'? Did someone, for instance, 'decide ' to find car keys or did this happen without even thinking about it?

best wishes,

Jon