Seeing (thru) the ego

[stephaneHKG2015]

And can that thought 'i'm trying to control this again' actually control anything?

No. There’s some tensing in the body occurring but thoughts and movements keep on happening on their own.

does this chatter of thoughts ever stop? even for a moment? What about when engrossed in an activity? when asleep?
Yes, there are moments where it’s noticed that the chatter has slowed down; especially when sitting quietly. During tasking, the chatter seems to diminish if it’s an intellectual task; when sleeping, it’s gone in deep sleep, reappearing during dreams.

'Mist' says something about 'unclear' to me. But aren't all those thoughts, sensations,feelings very clear when they are happening?
When I start to notice this succession of different experiences, they occur so fast that they are not very clear. Like: what was exactly this thought / sensation? It’s already gone and here’s is a new one already.

In regards to a separate self, information about that is not consistent.
I don't understand this statement. Please explain further- do you mean when looking sometimes information is found that shows a separate self? Or not?
By that I just mean that people have different opinions about it. When looking directly, there’s not a clear seeing of that presence or absence: it feels more like a search “where is it? is it there ?"

A thought occurs: “It doesn’t mean that because I can’t find one, there is none”.
ok...It doesn't mean that because a sabre tooth tiger isn't found here now, there is none.
What would you say to me if I gave you this argument?
I’d say it’s totally logical.

Now bring to mind a memory, a very clear memory. your first kiss, being in physical danger...really picture it vividly.
Now bring to mind the best screen kiss you ever saw, and the best action movie scene, things blowing up.
Talk me through if anything makes one of those option more 'real' or 'true' than the other?

They feel totally different for me at the level of physicality. Like love making / kissing. The virtual / movie one just stirs emotion through visual perceptions; the quality of the experience feels totally different from the “real” one which involves all senses. One can’t be mistaken for the other.

Is there a 'believer' of thoughts?
How strange really. No entity doing the believing can be seen in experience so how can it even happen? Is it because when thoughts with similar contents occur, that repetition/idea is at some point labeled as “a belief’?

BTW I’ve ordered the Look book; it will certainly remind me to keep my looking more active.

[Hannah B-T]

By that I just mean that people have different opinions about it. When looking directly, there’s not a clear seeing of that presence or absence: it feels more like a search “where is it? is it there ?"

I'm not interested in opinions about it.
If there's not clear seeing, there's not clear looking.

ok...It doesn't mean that because a sabre tooth tiger isn't found here now, there is none.
What would you say to me if I gave you this argument?
I’d say it’s totally logical.

LOL. Wow.
Ok. So this sabre tooth tiger that can't be seen, tasted,touched, heard or felt in any way right now. Where is the possibility it is still there?
Is it invisible?
Is it living on another plane of existance?
How would that work?

the quality of the experience feels totally different from the “real” one which involves all senses.

So imagining the first kiss you could smell the person? taste them?feel their body pressing against yours? hear their voice?

Let me ask you something. go into some memories. Which perspective is the visual images in? 1st person perspective. Can any of your body be seen?
Now try to 'zoom out' and look at your body in the scene in 3rd person, like a computer game? what happens?

How strange really. No entity doing the believing can be seen in experience so how can it even happen?

Is a thinker of thoughts needed for them to appear?
A hearer of sounds for sounds to be?
Is there an experiencer of life separate to life so that life has to happen?

BTW I’ve ordered the Look book; it will certainly remind me to keep my looking more active.

It doesn't need to be active (ie ongoing and take a long time). there is no magic formula of words.

It just needs to be utterly fearless, open and uncompromising. Even for one second. That's all it takes.

Just look.
Can a self be found?

[stephaneHKG2015]

Ok. So this sabre tooth tiger that can't be seen, tasted,touched, heard or felt in any way right now. Where is the possibility it is still there?
Is it invisible?
Is it living on another plane of existence?
How would that work?
It could exist now but somewhere else (next room): alright just playing with words ;). But I agree if we talk about the here and now of present experience, it can’t be perceived.

So imagining the first kiss you could smell the person? taste them?feel their body pressing against yours? hear their voice?
I’m afraid that both my imagination and memory aren’t that sharp.

Let me ask you something. go into some memories. Which perspective is the visual images in? 1st person perspective. Can any of your body be seen?
Now try to 'zoom out' and look at your body in the scene in 3rd person, like a computer game? what happens?

I see images appearing, it feels like an attempt to create something that doesn’t exist as if the brain was trying to picture the scene.

Is a thinker of thoughts needed for them to appear?
A hearer of sounds for sounds to be?
Is there an experiencer of life separate to life so that life has to happen?

The experiencer is life itself.

Just look.
Can a self be found?
When looking, this is what occurs: there’s a scanning of the ongoing experience (sensations, thoughts, ideas,…) and a questioning: is that a self / an “I” / a “me” ?
The answer is negative so far but the questioning is still ongoing.

[Hannah B-T]

Are the memory images more 'factual' than the 'fiction' of remembering the movie? What about the experience itself proves that?

So so far negative findings, but lack of confidence. So what else needs to happen? Is there an idea of a 'room next door' that the sabre tooth tiger is still hiding in?


Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk

[stephaneHKG2015]

Are the memory images more 'factual' than the 'fiction' of remembering the movie? What about the experience itself proves that?

No, those images are just what they are as they occur: images.

So so far negative findings, but lack of confidence. So what else needs to happen? Is there an idea of a 'room next door' that the sabre tooth tiger is still hiding in?

Yes, it feels like as searching is going on, there must be an undiscovered place where a “me, I” may be hidden (which motivates the activity of searching). So the searching may be connected to that imaginary place with an imaginary something hiding somewhere.
I’ve also noticed that meditation is not much practiced and as I’ll be moving soon to a new apartment, I’m giving away a lot (but not all!) of my books related to that “path”. It could be that the strength of the search is lessening. Interpretation /idea.
It feels like there’s still an attempt to find smth / not to find. And may be that very ongoing activity (which presupposes “a self” which does the searching and that also could be discovered) is what is keeping this idea somewhat real.

[Hannah B-T]

No, those images are just what they are as they occur: images.

Good

there must be an undiscovered place where a “me, I” may be hidden

Ok. Where and what is this undiscovered place? Then we can look together...
Sometimes ideas about 'the subconcious' can be part of this. Let me know if that's the case here.

So the searching may be connected to that imaginary place with an imaginary something hiding somewhere.

?? 'Imaginary place' would be simply made of words and images right?
So is there still searching in words and images for a self? Is that going to work? Why not?

t feels like there’s still an attempt to find smth / not to find. And may be that very ongoing activity (which presupposes “a self” which does the searching and that also could be discovered) is what is keeping this idea somewhat real.

Well take a look-

Is there a self seeking/searching? A 'searcher'?

Did a self start this dialogue?

Is there a self that is going to see there is no-self?

[stephaneHKG2015]

Where and what is this undiscovered place? Then we can look together...
Sometimes ideas about 'the subconcious' can be part of this. Let me know if that's the case here.

I’ve no issue with what we label ‘subconscious” as the processes that are going on offline so to say.

?? 'Imaginary place' would be simply made of words and images right?
So is there still searching in words and images for a self? Is that going to work? Why not?

I can feel “an energy / effort / wanting / searching’ for the seeing of the presence / absence of a separate self. It feels like an ongoing scanning of experiences (sensations, thoughts, images) with a questioning: “What’s that? Is that it?” and the answer to that so far has been: “no, it’s just a sensation, thought, image, etc.”
So I’m wondering whether this activity of searching itself isn’t turning into a self-feeding loop.
Just like trying to find a non-existent gate to get thru it.
So, no, it’s not going to ever work. Because there’s no gate/ self to begin with.

Is there a self seeking/searching? A 'searcher'?
Did a self start this dialogue?
Is there a self that is going to see there is no-self?

Yes, how bizarre, what is that is searching? A self looking and/ or finding that there is none is totally absurd. The “searcher” feels like a strong sensation + an idea / a thought “I’m searching”. So no searcher, no searched, just searching. And when searching stops? What remains? Sensations, thoughts, images, sounds, movements, etc. because it’s all there is right now.

[Hannah B-T]

I’ve no issue with what we label ‘subconscious” as the processes that are going on offline so to say.

Take a look again at the experience of thoughts. Sure there can be ideas about a subconcious, which is imagined as some sort of space or container where ideas and images exist or reside when not part of this current experience. That's fine to talk about as an idea...

However... let's look again at the actual experience and answer from that place.

Where do words/images/thoughts come from, can it be seen a thought image appearing from something like a subconcious?
Where do they go? Any experience of them going back into a subconcious?
If so describe what this subconcious appears as in the experience.

How many thoughts ideas are actually appearing at any moment? (we looked at that before)

It's a similar question to asking- sitting in this room is there any experience outside imagination/images/ thoughts of the room next door?
Is there any concrete proof to be found that anything outside what is currently seen/heard smelt and touched is happening?
The wall behind your head. Can you be 100% sure it's still there without turning round to check?

you can check the room next door and the wall. they will either then appear as experience, or not.

Can you check about the subconcious?
Can you check about a self?
Why not?

This is not philosophical.
It's simply about being very clear in any given moment what is perceptual experience and what is imagination.

t feels like an ongoing scanning of experiences (sensations, thoughts, images) with a questioning: “What’s that? Is that it?” and the answer to that so far has been: “no, it’s just a sensation, thought, image, etc.”

Ok, that's not a problem, that's what this dialogue has been focussed on.

So I’m wondering whether this activity of searching itself isn’t turning into a self-feeding loop.

But...how many times do you need to check if the keys are in the pocket or not to be confident? When is the right time to stop?

Just like trying to find a non-existent gate to get thru it.
So, no, it’s not going to ever work. Because there’s no gate/ self to begin with.

YES! Bingo!
Sit with this for a bit. Really let that sink in.
It's not called the 'gateless gate' for nothing ;)

A self looking and/ or finding that there is none is totally absurd.
;)

The “searcher” feels like a strong sensation + an idea / a thought “I’m searching”. So no searcher, no searched, just searching.
yes

And when searching stops? What remains? Sensations, thoughts, images, sounds, movements, etc. because it’s all there is right now.
Simple hey?

[stephaneHKG2015]

Where do words/images/thoughts come from, can it be seen a thought image appearing from something like a subconcious?

Well, in direct experience, what can only be seen is thoughts/ images appearing. Where from? no idea; to label this process as coming from the subconscious is one possibility but just a mere word about it.

Where do they go? Any experience of them going back into a subconcious?
If so describe what this subconcious appears as in the experience.

So the same apply to “where” they go: they’re here and then not here anymore. Are they gone somewhere? I can’t tell.

How many thoughts ideas are actually appearing at any moment? (we looked at that before)
They are appearing one by one in a quick or slow succession, with/ without pauses.

It's a similar question to asking- sitting in this room is there any experience outside imagination/images/ thoughts of the room next door?
Is there any concrete proof to be found that anything outside what is currently seen/heard smelt and touched is happening?
The wall behind your head. Can you be 100% sure it's still there without turning round to check?
you can check the room next door and the wall. they will either then appear as experience, or not.

Yes I agree with that.

Can you check about the subconcious?
Can you check about a self?
Why not?
What can be seen are ideas of “self”, “subconscious” and so on, so mental formations with different contents. But as they take shape, they vanish. May be they need to be repeated over and over to look like they have a kind of “solid” quality.

how many times do you need to check if the keys are in the pocket or not to be confident? When is the right time to stop?
Literally a few times in my experience! Even with solid objects such as keys or wallet, there’s a tendency to check…

YES! Bingo!
Sit with this for a bit. Really let that sink in.
It's not called the 'gateless gate' for nothing ;)

It’s sinking in I suppose… Can we go back to expectations? No downloading from the universe like Adyashanti, nor self referential thoughts stopping a la Gary Weber? No paradigm shift? Life feels just a bit lighter despite that cold / flu and motorbike problem. So yes there were some expectations / ideas there.

And when searching stops? What remains? Sensations, thoughts, images, sounds, movements, etc. because it’s all there is right now.
Simple hey?

Yes simple but a little bliss wouldn’t hurt ;)

[Hannah B-T]

What can be seen are ideas of “self”, “subconscious” and so on, so mental formations with different contents. But as they take shape, they vanish. May be they need to be repeated over and over to look like they have a kind of “solid” quality.

Let's look at this 'solid quality'. Can a thought/mental formation/idea (which is not physical right?) have a 'solid quality'?
What is actually happening here that makes those ideas different to other ideas/images?

Literally a few times in my experience! Even with solid objects such as keys or wallet, there’s a tendency to check…

Insight OCD? ;)

It’s sinking in I suppose… Can we go back to expectations? No downloading from the universe like Adyashanti, nor self referential thoughts stopping a la Gary Weber? No paradigm shift? Life feels just a bit lighter despite that cold / flu and motorbike problem. So yes there were some expectations / ideas there.

Yes, good to notice this. Here is an analogy-
When you were a child and adults told you what it was like to be an adult, they were very limited ideas about their experience right?...some turned out to make some sense, some just didn't happen and sometimes they were downright lying.
But can you see the massive difference between the ideas about growing up and it actually becoming the lived experience? How nobody could ever have given that experience to you in words before it happenned? How it could never have been really known as a child what being an adult would be like, as it was unknown by definition at the time?

So why be bothered with the stories about it?
Why not just look, get clear and live from there? whatever that looks like?

Yes simple but a little bliss wouldn’t hurt ;)

Ok, so this lack of an expectation about bliss. How much of an issue is that now?
Is it like- 'Oh because there is no more bliss seeing through the illusion of a separate self can't have really happened?'
Or more like 'Goddamn it? It's obvious there's no separate self, so where's all that bliss everyone kept going on about?

[stephaneHKG2015]

Let's look at this 'solid quality'. Can a thought/mental formation/idea (which is not physical right?) have a 'solid quality'?
What is actually happening here that makes those ideas different to other ideas/images?
So those ideas appear as having “a solid quality” but they don’t have. But as they are occurring with more frequency “I,I, me,my, I, etc.”, they look more “substantial”. May be like a flip book where images seem to come to existence.

Insight OCD? ;)
It could well be… :/

So why be bothered with the stories about it?
Why not just look, get clear and live from there? whatever that looks like?
I agree with your analogy. Stories are another burden. And no other choice either: just looking from where / what is right now.

Ok, so this lack of an expectation about bliss. How much of an issue is that now?
Difficult to say. I’ve got some deep peaceful moments during sitting lately so better than none ;) May be from the relaxing of the seeking.

Is it like- 'Oh because there is no more bliss seeing through the illusion of a separate self can't have really happened?'
Or more like 'Goddamn it? It's obvious there's no separate self, so where's all that bliss everyone kept going on about?

A bit of both: if I’ve really seen the illusion of self, there should be a big difference in my daily perceptions (they ought to feel better: “liberation”). And if there is no much sense of a relief, it could be that I haven’t really seen through that illusion of a separate self. So one expectation and one idea that are popping up from time to time.

[Hannah B-T]

So those ideas appear as having “a solid quality” but they don’t have. But as they are occurring with more frequency “I,I, me,my, I, etc.”,
Apparently men think about sex quite alot. Does that make the ideas about sex more 'solid?'
Look again, is there anything else going on, maybe with sensations that makes the I thoughts seem different to other thoughts?

A bit of both: if I’ve really seen the illusion of self, there should be a big difference in my daily perceptions (they ought to feel better: “liberation”). And if there is no much sense of a relief, it could be that I haven’t really seen through that illusion of a separate self. So one expectation and one idea that are popping up from time to time.

Ok, is is possible to see through this idea that seeing no-self= 'big difference in my daily perceptions'?

try to list all these 'big differences in daily perceptions' that apparently should be happening for me, just get them out on the page.

Describe to me what 'feeling better or liberated' would apparently look like. What is wrong still, what needs to change?
Would it be worth looking a little at emotions again?

And finally, it all comes down to---- is it seen right now there really is no such entity as a separate self? Take a big breath, go for a walk if needed and take a fresh look. Now, if that is seen, and perceptions are the same, where does that leave that idea/prediction that 'seeing the illusion of self=big difference in daily perceptions'?

Is that idea accurate?

[stephaneHKG2015]

Apparently men think about sex quite alot. Does that make the ideas about sex more 'solid?'
Look again, is there anything else going on, maybe with sensations that makes the I thoughts seem different to other thoughts?
Let’s see. For example, the idea “ I have a cold”. In that instance, there are thoughts and sensations that are happening in a sequence. It’s not usually clearly seen that they are distinct phenomena so there is a labeling of those as an “I” having a certain experience.
Are the “I” thoughts somehow different from “not I” thoughts? I can’t see how: both can be very repetitive, occur with(out) some emotional charge, be (un)pleasant, (un)interesting, (not)making sense, etc. etc. So all mental events with certain content.

Ok, is is possible to see through this idea that seeing no-self= 'big difference in my daily perceptions'?
try to list all these 'big differences in daily perceptions' that apparently should be happening for me, just get them out on the page.
It’s the idea that perceptions should be more accurate/ sharp / deeper as the mental
verbiage would decrease (it’s expected that the mind would be quieter, the number of thoughts would diminish at the same time). A sense of silence / peace / stillness would prevail.

Describe to me what 'feeling better or liberated' would apparently look like. What is wrong still, what needs to change?
Would it be worth looking a little at emotions again?
Feeling better or liberated would feel like a clear sense of joy, lightness / release/ openness, immunity to stress / worries/ anger and so on.
So there are again expectations / ideas about emotions that should(not) be felt,like only a certain type of feelings / thoughts/ experience should happen from now on.
But as life is lived, thoughts are thought, experiences experienced and so forth there is just what there is right now.

And finally, it all comes down to---- is it seen right now there really is no such entity as a separate self?
Yes: an ”I” can’t see ”a self”. No doer, thinker, feeler can be found in experience.

Take a big breath, go for a walk if needed and take a fresh look. Now, if that is seen, and perceptions are the same, where does that leave that idea/prediction that 'seeing the illusion of self=big difference in daily perceptions'?
Is that idea accurate?
This idea occurs sometimes along perceptions and judges / evaluates them as “being not very different / ought to be more/ less…” As it’s rather difficult to measure the efficiency of a perception, this thought is just pointless.

[Hannah B-T]

For example, the idea “ I have a cold”. In that instance, there are thoughts and sensations that are happening in a sequence.

Do you actually have a cold at the moment? This looking always requires looking at the thoughts and experience happening right now. Not last week, next 10 minutes. because that is extrapolating/reporting from imagination.

So what 'i/me mine' thoughts are happening right now? Now look at some other part of the current experience, a tree, the sky a chair whatever holds some interest- what thoughts arise about that?
Whilst doing this maybe going back and forth for a bit let me know if anything is happenning making the 'i' thoughts seem different, more special or more personal than the other thoughts?

It’s the idea that perceptions should be more accurate/ sharp / deeper as the mental
verbiage would decrease

Ok. mental verbiage (the experience of thought/imagery) is also part of perception. So tell me, right now without comparing to the content of thoughts about past experiences or stories heard about awakening- what part of the experience, sensory and thoughts isn't appearing as it is, 100% full on, exactly and perfectly mainfesting as what it is appearing as?
What else could be happenning?

it’s expected that the mind would be quieter, the number of thoughts would diminish at the same time

Are sounds a problem?
Are colours a problem?
Are sensations a problem?
Are tastes a problem?
Are smells a problem?
Are thoughts a problem?

For what?

Feeling better or liberated would feel like a clear sense of joy, lightness / release/ openness, immunity to stress / worries/ anger and so on.

Where and when did you learn this idea?
Can you see if the current experience is compared and judged like this, that that IS the seeking itself?

But as life is lived, thoughts are thought, experiences experienced and so forth there is just what there is right now.

YES! This. Just this. I love that this can be seen.

Yes: an ”I” can’t see ”a self”. No doer, thinker, feeler can be found in experience.

Great.
This doesn't mean checking won't need to still be happening for a while. There has been X number of years living from the paradigm of assumptions about a separate self. This seeing is the start of that unravelling, unlearning...

This idea occurs sometimes along perceptions and judges / evaluates them as “being not very different / ought to be more/ less…” As it’s rather difficult to measure the efficiency of a perception, this thought is just pointless.

Is is possible to see clearly that these labelling/evaulating/judgement thoughts about experience aren't accurate or truthful in the way that was assumed before?
Is that ok?

[Hannah B-T]

just a couple of extra questions so i can be clear where things are at: Take a look at these let's see if it's just the way language is being used...

But as life is lived, thoughts are thought, experiences experienced and so forth there is just what there is right now.

Is life being lived BY anything?
Or just is?

Are thoughts being produced by anything?
Or just are?

Are experiences being experienced BY anything?
Or just are?

Thanks