Semi-Professional Seeker

[Alex L]

We seemed to have gone to a weird place in the guidance, and I wasn't sure how to proceed.

I am extremely grateful for your guidance, interested in this process and will aim to complete it as directed.

I wasn't aware that we had gone to a weird place. I thought you thought i was ready to step through the gateless gate, though i should realize that there is no I to do that. On the other hand, i may have become nervous when asked to confirm that there was never an independent "I" that decided or controlled anything. If i agreed, i think i would be being disingenuous as it isn't yet my experience.

We've looked for an 'I' that is responsible for the senses. What is clear if anything? What has been found?

After paying attention to the senses, i find only only seeing, hearing, feeling, etc. I do not find a seer, hearer or feeler. Only experience.

We also looked for an 'I' that is responsible for choice and control (one that has free-will). Again, what is clear if anything? What has been found?

I could not find a chooser and i am willing to say that choice is illusory. i am still a bit fuzzy on control. I cannot find a controller and may have declared that there is no controller. I wish i was more definite on this.

What problems or confusion is there with the guidance or the exercises so far?

Lifting my hand and looking for a controller was a challenge though i cannot blame the guidance. Perhaps the problem is what i think i know. I think i'm going to find the hand moving and me creating a self that believes to be moving it. So hard to have any true experience with expectations.

Thank you!

[Xain]

If i agreed, i think i would be being disingenuous as it isn't yet my experience.

If it not is not 100% clear for you . . . then you have not realised anything.
We can continue.

Where exactly is the issue - What was the problem with that particular area?

I could not find a chooser and i am willing to say that choice is illusory

Either it is, or it is not.
Is there a choice to say either? What's making it?
What choice was there in having this guidance? What exactly chose that?
Is there a choice in what to reply? Made by what?

I think i'm going to find the hand moving and me creating a self that believes to be moving it.

Thoughts are something we can further investigate.

Exercise:
Think a thought - Any thought will do

Now examine the experience of creating that thought.
What exactly created that thought? I mean, what can you FIND that created it?
What can you find experiencing that thought. Is there a self experiencing it? Can you find a self experiencing a thought?
Is there control over thoughts at all? If so, by what?
Can you choose to have pleasant thoughts all day? Why not? Is there a controller of thoughts?

Xain ♥

[Alex L]

If i agreed, i think i would be being disingenuous as it isn't yet my experience.

.... Where exactly is the issue - What was the problem with that particular area?

i felt i was being led to the conclusion that the independent "I" as feeler, decider or chooser had always been false. I felt like i was seeing more but the grandiosity of the claim frightened me. "HOLD ON, I'm still trying to wrap my head around this!," I might have protested.

I could not find a chooser and i am willing to say that choice is illusory

Either it is, or it is not.
Is there a choice to say either? What's making it?
What choice was there in having this guidance? What exactly chose that?
Is there a choice in what to reply? Made by what?

What i should have said: my investigation tells me that choice does not exist.

So the choice here is between sharing my experience (no choice possible) or accepting conventional truth (while wondering if I'm making hasty decisions). Did i mention a reluctance to make decisions?

What choice was there in having this guidance? I love this question! It reminds me of finding myself sending my family to Florida this summer so i could drive solo to a silent retreat and visit a Buddhist guru I'd never met in West Virginia, a part of the continent I'd only thought about exploring. I got lost on a drive of more than 10 hours, only had a few nuts for the trip and found myself asking an identical question. To make a long story short, i knew that it wasn't me driving to West Virginia. In this case, there was no choice only seeking. Nothing chose to seek, there was only seeking.

A choice in what to reply? It sure seems like there is. But can there be a choice without a chooser? I'd like to post on this only after further consideration.

Think a thought - Any thought will do
Now examine the experience of creating that thought.
What exactly created that thought? I mean, what can you FIND that created it?
What can you find experiencing that thought. Is there a self experiencing it? Can you find a self experiencing a thought?
Is there control over thoughts at all? If so, by what?
Can you choose to have pleasant thoughts all day? Why not? Is there a controller of thoughts?

Hmm. My thoughts are so fleeting at the best of times though they do have a tendency to ambush me when i least expect it. Hmmm. Say i imagine an apple like i did before. I cannot and have never found anything creating this image (can i call it a thought?). I cannot find a self experiencing the image. If nothing controls thought then nothing can choose to have pleasant thoughts all day. Never mind, how ridiculous the idea is!

How am i doing?

Thank you

[Xain]

i felt i was being led to the conclusion that the independent "I" as feeler, decider or chooser had always been false.

Sounds like I am trying to convince you of something.
All I ask is to tell me what you find. If you find an independent 'I', then tell me and we can examine it.

What i should have said: my investigation tells me that choice does not exist.

Perhaps choice has existence as an idea - A subtle object.
Does it exist inherently? Is there an inherent chooser?
What can be found?

Did i mention a reluctance to make decisions?

Yes. And what is this 'I' that is doing that?
Is that through any choice or control?

In this case, there was no choice only seeking. Nothing chose to seek, there was only seeking.

So what is seeking now? Look! Can you find a seeker here right now? Or just ideas about one?
I'm not trying to convince you of anything - I am asking you to look and tell me what is found.

A choice in what to reply? It sure seems like there is. But can there be a choice without a chooser?

Indeed.
A choice for who or what?

How am i doing?

Is there an 'I' actually doing anything here? Or only the thought of one?

Xain ♥

[Alex L]

All I ask is to tell me what you find. If you find an independent 'I', then tell me and we can examine it.

Grinding my coffee by hand this morning, contemplating this. There is the sound of the beans being ground. There is the feeling of my hands spinning the handle. Surely these beans aren't grinding themselves: I am doing it!

As for independent "I", i would have to say that wherever i find myself it is because of contact with something else. I am sitting in the chair or cushion, lying in a bed or grinding coffee beans. I cannot imagine a situation where "i" exist independently.

Perhaps choice has existence as an idea - A subtle object.
Does it exist inherently? Is there an inherent chooser?
What can be found?

Yes, choice seems like an idea. I couldn't find any real choice when i looked. But it did feel like it was me refereeing which hand should raise based on the ideas of fairness and "tingliness" that i mentioned earlier. You may remember that i found it very difficult/impossible to choose so i just selected a hand somewhat randomly.

Did i mention a reluctance to make decisions?

Yes. And what is this 'I' that is doing that?
Is that through any choice or control?

This is a tough question. It feels like a mental block, a reluctance to engage perhaps. A happiness with the status quo. At the same time, it feels like not deciding is somewhat admitting an inability to choose or control. Just letting things be--or maybe not letting them be, aagh!

So what is seeking now? Look! Can you find a seeker here right now? Or just ideas about one?
I'm not trying to convince you of anything - I am asking you to look and tell me what is found.

There is something engaging right now, hoping to find something or the lack of anything. But besides the obvious fact that i'm typing with the aim of realization, there is only the idea of seeking.

When looking, however, nothing can be found. Just a bright shiny screen on a damp and overcast morning. I feel a lot of freedom and openness if that makes sense. I don't find a seeker.

A choice in what to reply? It sure seems like there is. But can there be a choice without a chooser?

Indeed.
A choice for who or what?

You got me here. Here's how i seemed to think it through: i wish to answer in the best way to help this conversation without taking too much time out of my workday beyond the typical allowed breaks. Anyway, i am comfortable taking time on this because it seems important. I choose to add a bit more flavour to my last two or three answers, thinking that we would booth benefit from more openness and sharing.

How am i doing?

Is there an 'I' actually doing anything here? Or only the thought of one?

Well there is certainly the thought of one. And perhaps that is all. I hope to soon see the obviousness of this.

Washing the dishes last night, an interesting idea popped into my head, that of the gingerbread man. I've been reading the story to my 1.5yr old daughter who just loves it. Anyway, the refrain popped into my head: "run, run, run as fast as you can. You can't catch me I'm the gingerbread man!" What a perfect analogy for looking at the self!

Thank you

[Xain]

There is the feeling of my hands spinning the handle.
I am sitting in the chair or cushion, lying in a bed or grinding coffee beans.

So there is an 'I' feeling a pair of hands and a separate handle?
Did we do the exercise on 'feeling'? What was found?
Apply the exercise to grinding coffee (with eyes closed) and tell me what you found.

Surely these beans aren't grinding themselves: I am doing it!

We did the exercise on control (moving the hands).
What 'I' did you find doing it?
Apply the exercise to 'hands grinding' and tell me what you find.

It seems that the work we have already done and the things that you have already found are being dismissed and ignored in favour of guesswork and poetry. Sorry if this seems harsh. It depends on what you want here through this guidance with me.

But it did feel like it was me refereeing which hand should raise based on the ideas of fairness and "tingliness" that i mentioned earlier.

So there was an 'I' refereeing? This is something that you found?

Is there an 'I' actually doing anything here? Or only the thought of one?

Well there is certainly the thought of one. And perhaps that is all. I hope to soon see the obviousness of this.

And what 'I' is 'going to see the obviousness of this' - A real one you can find? Or is this just another thought / idea appearing about one?

Xain ♥

[Alex L]

So there is an 'I' feeling a pair of hands and a separate handle?
Did we do the exercise on 'feeling'? What was found?
Apply the exercise to grinding coffee (with eyes closed) and tell me what you found.

Sorry I am at work now and coffee grinder at home. So "i" cannot follow directions exactly but i understand the gist of them. It works the same with hand on desk which we've done.

The I is just inferred. The hand on desk is inferred. There is only sensation. Similarly, there was only sound and sensation. And an "i" that i rather convincingly brought into being!

Surely these beans aren't grinding themselves: I am doing it!

We did the exercise on control (moving the hands).
What 'I' did you find doing it?

An "I" doing the grinding, lifting the hand or whatever must be inferred and cannot be found.

It seems that the work we have already done and the things that you have already found are being dismissed and ignored in favour of guesswork and poetry. Sorry if this seems harsh. It depends on what you want here through this guidance with me.

I was trying to describe my thought process a bit to help the conversation along. Guesswork must be referring to the inferences about myself as chooser, feeler, etc. I believe we want the same things and will try not to get distracted or overly colourful. Hmm, i could do this by just dropping all these false beliefs.

But it did feel like it was me refereeing which hand should raise based on the ideas of fairness and "tingliness" that i mentioned earlier.

So there was an 'I' refereeing? This is something that you found?

No "I" was found refereeing but certainly thoughts of a referee.

Well there is certainly the thought of one. And perhaps that is all. I hope to soon see the obviousness of this.

And what 'I' is 'going to see the obviousness of this' - A real one you can find? Or is this just another thought / idea appearing about one?

this is getting hard again. Would be best if these thoughts of "I" as seer or controller could just drop away.

THANK YOU

[Xain]

The I is just inferred. The hand on desk is inferred. There is only sensation.

Good.

And an "i" that i rather convincingly brought into being!

Whilst I fully understand the meaning of this, was there ever an 'I' doing this?
Could it have 'just happened'?

An "I" doing the grinding, lifting the hand or whatever must be inferred and cannot be found.

Good.

Hmm, i could do this by just dropping all these false beliefs.

Well two things to say here.
This guidance isn't really anything about dropping false beliefs as such - It's more about seeing the beliefs for what they are - just beliefs and nothing more.
Secondly, 'dropping false beliefs' would certainly be possible to do is there was an 'I' capable of doing that.
Is there?
Is there even an 'I' that HAS beliefs in the first place?
Just look for one right now and see if you can find one.

Could any believer you come up with just be based on thoughts / a belief? 'Inferred' once again?

No "I" was found refereeing but certainly thoughts of a referee

Good.

Would be best if these thoughts of "I" as seer or controller could just drop away.

Is there an 'I' having them in the first place?
Is there an 'I' that can make them go away?
Just LOOK - It's so easy - What can you FIND?

Xain ♥

[Alex L]

And an "i" that i rather convincingly brought into being!

Whilst I fully understand the meaning of this, was there ever an 'I' doing this?
Could it have 'just happened'?

Sorry, i got sloppy. No fictitious "I" brought another fictitious "I"into being. Yes, it may have just happened.

Hmm, i could do this by just dropping all these false beliefs.

Well two things to say here.
This guidance isn't really anything about dropping false beliefs as such - It's more about seeing the beliefs for what they are - just beliefs and nothing more.
Secondly, 'dropping false beliefs' would certainly be possible to do is there was an 'I' capable of doing that.
Is there?
Is there even an 'I' that HAS beliefs in the first place?
Just look for one right now and see if you can find one.

Good point, there is no "I" capable of dropping beliefs. A believed "I" cannot do anything. And there has never been a believed entity that has beliefs anyway. Looking .... nothing found!

Could any believer you come up with just be based on thoughts / a belief? 'Inferred' once again?

A believer cannot be based on thoughts as it could not perform the action of believing. Such a belief cannot act as it is just a thought.

Would be best if these thoughts of "I" as seer or controller could just drop away.

Is there an 'I' having them in the first place?
Is there an 'I' that can make them go away?

There is no I having these thoughts. They are just thoughts about thoughts! There is no "I" to make them go away!

THANK YOU Xain!!

[Xain]

A believer cannot be based on thoughts as it could not perform the action of believing. Such a belief cannot act as it is just a thought.

You are right in your statement that 'believing' would not be possible without a believer performing that function.
So what is inferred? A belief, a believer, neither or both?
What can you FIND?

There is no I having these thoughts. They are just thoughts about thoughts! There is no "I" to make them go away!

THANK YOU Xain!!

You are welcome.

So . . . have you any questions at this point?
Is there an inherently existing 'I'?
What seems clear?

Xain ♥

[Alex L]

You are right in your statement that 'believing' would not be possible without a believer performing that function.
So what is inferred? A belief, a believer, neither or both?

My looking tells me that neither a belief nor a believer can be found and both must be inferred.

So . . . have you any questions at this point?
Is there an inherently existing 'I'?
What seems clear?

Can we go back to the rising arm observation? There is a lack of clarity on what's happening. Obvious there's an arm moving. But nothing else happening? It seems that there's nothing to attach the control to since this imaginary "i" is only that, i.e., imaginary. Even less obvious what i should do with the wish/command/suggestion that made (?) the arm rise.

There is no inherently existing "I". Wow. Stream entry, eh? I suppose the fact that i want to boast about it suggests to me I'm not there (aaggh!) or I've got to let it sink in.

SO SO GRATEFUL

[Alex L]

And, importantly, what seems clear? That my concept of "i" is just imagined and never existed. And that all these thoughts about this imagined person are completely irrelevant. The idea that i can't decide is just an idea about an imagined self that is also an idea.

The zen koans "What am I", or "Who am I?" quickly fall away

This is great!!

Best

[Xain]

:-) Great!
I thought my pushing you hard with a little 'forceful pointing' might end up with you running away, but you stuck with it. Nice work.

Can we go back to the rising arm observation? There is a lack of clarity on what's happening. Obvious there's an arm moving. But nothing else happening? It seems that there's nothing to attach the control to since this imaginary "i" is only that, i.e., imaginary. Even less obvious what i should do with the wish/command/suggestion that made (?) the arm rise.

For the moment, it is enough to say that the arm is moving without the control of an inherently existing self.
It's 'just happening' - Just like the movement of branches of trees in the wind.

You could do a kooky experiment - Let's say 'making a cup of coffee'.
Go to the kitchen and stand there. Make a suggestion that a cup of coffee (or tea) is going to be made, but its 'just going to happen' - And watch and observe what happens. Just allow things to naturally unfold without preventing or forcing anything.

There is no inherently existing "I". Wow. Stream entry, eh? I suppose the fact that i want to boast about it suggests to me I'm not there (aaggh!) or I've got to let it sink in.

It's OK - The minds patterns still operate. Thoughts still occur. It is enough to realise that none of it . . . even the apparent negative things associate with ego are not under any choice or control at all.
You say 'I want to boast about it' - Sure - I get what you mean as a general description. Whilst at the same time, realise that there is no 'I', no inherently existing separate self that wants it or could do it.

SO SO GRATEFUL

You are very welcome - And thank you for sticking with the process.

And, importantly, what seems clear? That my concept of "i" is just imagined and never existed.

Yes - Perhaps you can see the emptiness of 'I'.
'I' never existed as an inherently existing 'thing'.
But 'I' does exist as an idea - A concept.
So in one way it does exist, and in another way it does not.

The main one here at LU is the realisation that 'I' is never an inherently existing thing.

The idea that i can't decide is just an idea about an imagined self that is also an idea.

Yes, this is the 'self referencing' nature of thoughts that you appear to have seen through.
I am genuinely pleased for you.

The zen koans "What am I", or "Who am I?" quickly fall away

Yes :-)

There are a further six questions I can ask as part of this process, but before launching into them, is there anything else you want to mention or anything that is unclear?

Xain ♥

[Alex L]

Masterful guiding! When i heard the crack of the whip i scampered!

You could do a kooky experiment - Let's say 'making a cup of coffee'.
Go to the kitchen and stand there. Make a suggestion that a cup of coffee (or tea) is going to be made, but its 'just going to happen' - And watch and observe what happens. Just allow things to naturally unfold without preventing or forcing anything.

Yes, i will try this. At the same time I remember doing similar things many times. But it's always been in a daydreaming, half awake place. I'll suddenly jolt myself and say, "hey what am i doing here?" From now on, I'll aim for effortless mindfulness.

'I want to boast about it' - Sure - I get what you mean as a general description. Whilst at the same time, realise that there is no 'I', no inherently existing separate self that wants it or could do it.

Sorry: a weak attempt a nondual humour mixed with an inexplicable a sense of accomplishment.

And thank you for sticking with the process.

Thank you again Xain. So wonderful to see this!!

There are a further six questions I can ask as part of this process, but before launching into them, is there anything else you want to mention or anything that is unclear?

Please launch into the questions. A minor query is what we say about the experiences of others: i've been told by monks that Buddhists never concern themselves with others, i.e., mind their own affairs only.

THANK YOU XAIN!

best, Alex

[Xain]

Please launch into the questions. A minor query is what we say about the experiences of others: i've been told by monks that Buddhists never concern themselves with others, i.e., mind their own affairs only.

'Others' is best left to further guidance.
I would only offer a few pointers to contemplate.
When you say 'others' . . . others to what?
Are there inherently existing 'others' or could 'others' also be empty?
Even assuming there are inherently existing others, do these others have choice, control, free-will?
(There is no need to answer these questions here . . . )

Here are the first three of the six main questions.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference between 'now' and from before you started this dialogue? Perhaps give a report from the past few days (weeks)?

3) Was there a last bit that pushed you over? Made you look and realise? Perhaps something that was mentioned, or something that you looked into yourself?

Xain ♥