Scratching the surface

[Petrus]

Hi Tupapa,

It looks like (but maybe I am wrong), that you make a thing (some thing) out of awareness: the space in which all this is occurring. If you say: "It is that place, that brings true peace", I cant help interpreting that as you are separated from it. That you want to go there, because sometimes you are not there?
That it is a some-thing that brings peace. Is that so?

Let focus a moment on experiencing. For example experiencing peace.
If you look closely, is it clear to you for that moment there is this feeling of peace only?
So not someone experiencing it in the same time? And in the same time no "space" in which the feeling is experienced? Only this feeling of peace?

Warm regards, Petrus

[tupapa]

Hi Petrus,

It looks like (but maybe I am wrong), that you make a thing (some thing) out of awareness: the space in which all this is occurring.

I am using that expression because it was the one used in the video you referenced. What I understand is that “awareness/consciousness/that which is before thought/ the space in which all this is occurring”, they are all synonymous.
Are we in agreement up to here?

If you say: "It is that place, that brings true peace", I cant help interpreting that as you are separated from it. That you want to go there, because sometimes you are not there?
That it is a some-thing that brings peace. Is that so?

No, this was badly explained on my behalf. It is always here, only sometimes it is noticed and others it is unnoticed.

Let focus a moment on experiencing. For example experiencing peace.
If you look closely, is it clear to you for that moment there is this feeling of peace only?
So not someone experiencing it in the same time? And in the same time no "space" in which the feeling is experienced? Only this feeling of peace?

There is never someone experiencing anything.

There is only the feeling of peace, or a feeling of anger, but there is an experiential difference. Sometimes peace or anger is noticed arising, sometimes they are unnoticed.

Best wishes

Tupapa

[Petrus]

Hi Tupapa,

I see you see, but this last issue is crucial:

...sometimes they are unnoticed...

unnoticed by whom?
if they are unnoticed, who is saying they do exist?
can you understand it is like you are saying there is a reality separate from you and sometimes you notice it and sometimes you dont?

warmest regards, Petrus

[tupapa]

Hi Petrus,

unnoticed by whom?
if they are unnoticed, who is saying they do exist?
can you understand it is like you are saying there is a reality separate from you and sometimes you notice it and sometimes you dont?

warmest regards, Petrus

Yes I can see how this would lead to separation; however, I talk about noticing not as an act involving a witnessing agent that is separate from what is noticed. For me, noticing just happens, without a witness. You are right, if something isn´t noticed, how can we say it exists.

The reason why I insist in the noticing is because there is a huge difference between noticing thoughts/emotions as they arise, and noticing them after the fact.

If for instance anger arises, it governs behaviour and can have a very destructive outcome. If, on the other hand anger is noticed as it arises, it can be seen as what it is; simply a temporary appearance in awareness, that fades away like any other thing that arises.

So, if I may amend my statement, I would say the following; Noticing whatever is arising as it arises, as opposed to noticing it after the fact has tremendous implications on how life is experienced.

best wishes

Tupapa.

[Petrus]

Hi Tupapa,

If for instance anger arises, it governs behaviour and can have a very destructive outcome. If, on the other hand anger is noticed as it arises, it can be seen as what it is;

Ok. You state not noticing can have a destructive outcome. It could be. But also: it could not be.
If noticing is happening you state: all is well. It could. But it also could be the opposite.

It is also clear you prefer the noticing from the not noticing. Can you see this preferring as an experience only?

Is there anything you can do to change this flow of things?
Is there an I, capable of making noticing happen more often?

Warmest regards, Petrus

[tupapa]

Ok. You state not noticing can have a destructive outcome. It could be. But also: it could not be.
If noticing is happening you state: all is well. It could. But it also could be the opposite.

Yes, I am not claiming that noticing will necessarily lead to a state of equanimity.

It is also clear you prefer the noticing from the not noticing. Can you see this preferring as an experience only?

Yes, the preference is also just another experience arising.

Is there anything you can do to change this flow of things?
Is there an I, capable of making noticing happen more often?

No, this has already been established, there is nothing that “I” can do to change things. But seeing the empty nature of thoughts and emotions can lead to dramatic experiential changes.

Best wishes

tupapa

[Petrus]

Hi Tupapa,

But seeing the empty nature of thoughts and emotions can lead to dramatic experiential changes.

Tell me. I am curious...

Warm regards, Petrus

[Petrus]

Hi Tupapa,

By the way: is searching still going on over there?

Regards, Petrus.

[tupapa]

Hi Petrus,

Unless there´s something else you'd like to look at, nothing else is coming up here.

Best wishes,

Tupapa.

[Petrus]

Hi Tupapa,

So, the search is over?

And still like to know what you mean by:
"But seeing the empty nature of thoughts and emotions can lead to dramatic experiential changes."
Are you experiencing dramatic experiential changes?

Warmest regards, Petrus

[tupapa]

Hi Tupapa,

So, the search is over?

Yes, I can´t see anywhere else for this conversation to move on to from here.

And still like to know what you mean by:
"But seeing the empty nature of thoughts and emotions can lead to dramatic experiential changes."
Are you experiencing dramatic experiential changes?

No, without wanting to sound disparaging towards this exchange, real changes took place prior to this, through introspection and by noticing thoughts as temporary appearances in awareness, noticing the selflessness of consciousness, and seeing how consciousness remains unchanged no matter what appears within it.

That was the real aHa moment!

If there is something specific that you would like to explore, lets go for it but nothing is coming up here,

Best wishes,

TUpapa.

[Petrus]

Hi TUpapa,

Good news: The other guides have no more questions and confirmed.
So now a LU admin will contact you and invite you for the "post-gate" groups.
Thanks a lot for our conversation. It was very interesting.
Maybe we meet again on the other side. Of the gateless gate I mean, haha.

Warmest regards, Petrus

[tupapa]

Hi Petrus,

Many thanks for devoting your time to this conversation, it's been a very interesting and insightful exchange, look forward to continuing sharing views.

Best wishes,

Tupapa.