Looking for guide :)

[Pete777]

Thanks for your thorough answer Vivien.

OK… what I suggest to do is that whenever thoughts come up “What if I’m just fooling myself” – then stop. Stop whatever you do… and just stay with this thought, but in a different way we are used to staying with a thought… not believing… but SEEING that this is just a thought. Nothing more than an appearing thought among millions… This thought has no more relevant as any other thoughts. This thought has no more truth in it as any other thoughts. Thoughts come and go, nothing is permanent.

The looking went like this “1) thought x comes, 2) a belief comes: this was just a thought. 2) is not seen to be a thought itself. And hence still identified with thought.
After a while I got aversion from doing it --> fighting with myself. Trying to control the process of seeing a thought as a thought. . Beating myself up when it’s not seen as a thought. Felt stuck (believed the thought “I am stuck”) Still the looker.

so I guess there’s an expectation for this to go away as you’ve been asking earlier.



When intending to look for the looker/concluder/commentary, the conclusion too was seen to be a thought. There was then relief. And relaxation happened and a smile came.

Thoughts showed up again, and I’m trying to do the same (look for the looker). But even though I try to pay attention to thoughts arising, I believe them most of the time. A few times also the commentary is seen as a thought, and as a result, relaxation happens.

Feel like (believe) the thought has to be seen right in the beginning of the arising if the thought’s not to be taken seriously.

2) I’ve been reading about negative beliefs (even though maybe I shouldn’t have) and how to challenge them. The exercise I read about was to challenge the belief “I’m not good enough”. This was done by bringing what I actually thought to the table, and checking if this conclusion was the only conclusion to the events that led to the conclusion. In other words: the belief was challenged/checked with openness/confrontation instead of being denied or suppressed.

This gave me confidence in what to expect from seeing through the illusion of self at LU. I’ve been told that it’s just a dropping of a belief, but it got clearer after I got that reference. Just put my actual belief of the self on the table, and check if the “input” does give such a conclusion. Instead of trying to “hide” the self. This is needed if I'm to get any confidence in the looking. When I did this it seemed obvious that the self couldn’t stand the test. The inner commentary was seen as arising thoughts, and there were nowhere else for the self to hide.

When this was checked again in the morning it didn’t seem as clear. Doubting thoughts were believed. When checking these doubting thoughts they were to some extent seen to be thoughts, but most of the time they are believed (even when I try to look). And there’s also an experience here of not wanting to check too much, since I so often get caught up in believing the thoughts.

This is still on the level of the story… not seeing directly through the illusion, but expecting that by generating some loving feelings the story of me would change to a better story (better feelings). But the whole point is that there is no me that could feel anything. Feeling of love or feeling of sadness might there, but they don’t belong to anything.

This is still about avoiding half of the feelings. Only those feelings are allowed that are labelled as ‘positive’ or ‘pleasant’. But what if that those feelings that are labelled ‘negative’ or ‘unpleasant’ are not what you think they are? What if they are not ‘negative’ or ‘unpleasant’ at all?

As long as there is a desire for avoiding ANY of the feelings, the illusion of the me is in operation. The way out is not avoiding or replacing, the way out is IN, through it… allowing the so called ‘negative’ feeling to be here completely… not trying to superimpose (or cover up) with some loving feelings on top of it… this simply doesn’t work. It may work temporarily, but never in the long run.

When the so called ‘negative’ feeling allowed to be here without doing ANYTHING with it, just feeling it fully… story may come up… the story can also be observed… but the emphasis is on fully feeling the sensations that are labelled as such-and-such emotion.

Hmm.. I’m not sure I agree with all of this. At the same time I don’t want to start a discussion. But if the I is the act of resistance, then surely an act that diminishes resistance should help diminish the I? I’ve read about a guy that saw through the illusion of the self this way. And I don’t mean avoiding half of the feelings – just meeting them from a place of non-identification. But this doesn't have to be tanken any further for the purpose of this conversation.

To be with the feelings is the way out – ok I believe this is true. But being with them while believing the story that comes don’t seem helpful. So I guess you mean feeling the feelings and being with thoughts without believing the thoughts? This brings me to your quote:

When a thought is believed, in that moment thinking happens without KNOWING that thinking happens. When it is seen that thinking happens, in that moment the thought is not believed.

As I wrote above I believe thoughts most of the time, even while trying to “Know” that I’m thinking.

If there is an effort to accept something, it means that what is resisted is labelled as a ‘bad thing’. Otherwise, there wouldn’t be the need for accepting it. So the labelling “this is bad” comes first, then we try to cover it up (layer over) by enforcing acceptance onto the top of the resistance. How could acceptance then be possible?


You do not have the power to accept this moment.
You do not have the power to allow it.
This moment does not ask for your acceptance.
It is already the way it is. You don't have a choice.

I enjoyed this text. Will contemplate over it. “Don’t try to accept it (as this is often resistance in disguise) but acknowledge that it is ALREADY accepted”

Are you ready for the final questions?

To be honest I don’t know. There are lots of doubts – so I feel like I need to challenge beliefs some more. At the same time the reference of challenging other beliefs, and seeing that the belief in the self is a belief just like any other gives more confidence :)

[Vivien]

Dear Pete,

The looking went like this “1) thought x comes, 2) a belief comes: this was just a thought. 2) is not seen to be a thought itself. And hence still identified with thought.
After a while I got aversion from doing it --> fighting with myself. Trying to control the process of seeing a thought as a thought. . Beating myself up when it’s not seen as a thought. Felt stuck (believed the thought “I am stuck”) Still the looker.
so I guess there’s an expectation for this to go away as you’ve been asking earlier.

Yes, it seems that there is an expectation to get to a better state in the future. This whole scenario is based on time. When beating up happens it refers back to the so called past - ‘in the last few minutes I couldn’t see the arising thought’ -, with a projected positive outcome into the future – ‘I have to do this, I have to achieve this calm state where thoughts are seen for what they are’.

And while juggling between the apparent past and future, this moment is totally missed.

So let’s examine time again…

What is past in the actual experience?
What is future in the actual experience?
Where do past and future take place? Don’t they take place in the now, in this moment?
Is there anything outside of this moment? If yes, where exactly?

So when beating up happens, you can ask:

Where is the last 10 minutes when seeing thoughts should have happened?
Where is the future where this should be achieved?

Where is the ‘me’ that should have seen the arising thoughts without being lost in them?
Where is the ‘me’ that should achieve the state of observing the arising thoughts?

Where is my control in all of this?
What is the ‘me’ that supposedly has control over this?

Thoughts showed up again, and I’m trying to do the same (look for the looker). But even though I try to pay attention to thoughts arising, I believe them most of the time. A few times also the commentary is seen as a thought, and as a result, relaxation happens.

This comment shows that there is desire (expectation) for a state of relaxation/peace. But liberation is not about being in a constant peaceful or restful state. I know, I wrote about this a lot, and I understand your desire for peace. But as you see peace cannot be forced or achieved.

What if there is a background peace WHILE there is a seeming agitation or unhappiness?
This peace can be found ONLY THROUGH letting the agitation or unhappiness be, and fully FEELING the agitation or unhappiness.

I’ve been reading about negative beliefs (even though maybe I shouldn’t have) and how to challenge them. The exercise I read about was to challenge the belief “I’m not good enough”. This was done by bringing what I actually thought to the table, and checking if this conclusion was the only conclusion to the events that led to the conclusion. In other words: the belief was challenged/checked with openness/confrontation instead of being denied or suppressed.

This is a very good exercise… do it as often as you can with ANY kind of thoughts / beliefs.

Just put my actual belief of the self on the table, and check if the “input” does give such a conclusion. Instead of trying to “hide” the self. This is needed if I'm to get any confidence in the looking. When I did this it seemed obvious that the self couldn’t stand the test. The inner commentary was seen as arising thoughts, and there were nowhere else for the self to hide.

Beautiful :)

To be with the feelings is the way out – ok I believe this is true. But being with them while believing the story that comes don’t seem helpful. So I guess you mean feeling the feelings and being with thoughts without believing the thoughts?

Yes, exactly… just feeling the feelings, but IGNORING the thoughts. Actually, the more attention goes to the felt sensations, the less pull thoughts have.

Vivien: Are you ready for the final questions?

Pete: To be honest I don’t know. There are lots of doubts – so I feel like I need to challenge beliefs some more. At the same time the reference of challenging other beliefs, and seeing that the belief in the self is a belief just like any other gives more confidence

That’s all right. We can continue with this investigation as long as it’s needed. Sometimes I may ask this question again, until you feel ready. :)

Love, Vivien

[Pete777]

What is past in the actual experience?

It isn’t found In actual experience. Have only found memories of the past.

What is future in the actual experience?

It is only found in thoughts.

Where do past and future take place? Don’t they take place in the now, in this moment?

Thinking about the future and past happens “now”.

Is there anything outside of this moment? If yes, where exactly?’

Thoughts says so, and they can be believed. The belief can be seen as a thought happening now. When that happens the belief falls away in a way.

Where is the last 10 minutes when seeing thoughts should have happened?

Nowhere to be found.

Where is the future where this should be achieved?

Only found in thoughts

Where is the ‘me’ that should have seen the arising thoughts without being lost in them?

Don’t know. Only found as a thought believed :D

Where is the ‘me’ that should achieve the state of observing the arising thoughts?

Argh.. can’t shake this belief…

Where is my control in all of this?

Isn’t found

What is the ‘me’ that supposedly has control over this?

frustration appearing here trying to answer this question,

[Vivien]

Dear Pete,

Vivien: Where is the ‘me’ that should have seen the arising thoughts without being lost in them?

Pete: Don’t know. Only found as a thought believed :D

Yes.

Vivien: Where is the ‘me’ that should achieve the state of observing the arising thoughts?

Pete: Argh.. can’t shake this belief…

Is it just another thought believed?

Vivien: What is the ‘me’ that supposedly has control over this?

Pete: frustration appearing here trying to answer this question

What is the actual experience of ‘frustration’? – describe it as detailed as you can.
Does ‘frustration’ really happen?
Is there really anything that could be frustrated?

Thoughts may seem to cause concern, but can they really?
Or is concern about thoughts, just another thought?

Look very carefully. Make certain of what is the actual experience.

Love, Vivien

[Vivien]

Hi Pete,

How things are going?

I’m going for a short 4-day long holiday today with no proper internet connection, so I won’t be able to reply during this time if you happen to write.

I hope everything is fine with you.

Love, Vivien

[Pete777]

hello Vivien. thanks for your care.


Regarding your questions:

Pete: Argh.. can’t shake this belief…

Is it just another thought believed?

Yes, direct experience shows nothing but thoughts and sensing.

What is the actual experience of ‘frustration’? – describe it as detailed as you can.

Tightness in the body (contraction) and many thoughts about frustration, and sometimes thoughts about doing some things to release the pressure (like yell, usually not to this extreme though).

Does ‘frustration’ really happen?

There are contraction and thoughts, and pressure in the head – no frustration outside that.

Is there really anything that could be frustrated?

No such thing found. But there is a belief it might be there.

Thoughts may seem to cause concern, but can they really?

thoughts aren’t seen to cause anything, but there is a belief that they might be able to.

Or is concern about thoughts, just another thought?

Yes, but it may also lead to contractions in the body.


since last post i've been looking more into the past and future. I re-did the exercise of visualizing, and after that it was more clear that "image-thoughts" are only thoughts and not reality. so whenever a memory with an image of the past comes up, it can be checked. Often an "electric jolt" (contraction) goes through the body, and it is seen that it is just a thought arising in the now - which brings relief.

However, when thoughts with words show up, no equal seeing it as just a thought happens. instead another thought may come that says - you are only trying to deny this of self interest - the thought is still seen as reality.

This may also happen with the image-thoughts - instead of the thought being seen as a thought - another thought comes (which is believed) with a negative message. when this happens over time the frustration rises and there are thoughts about "i will never get this".

Like you said, I've tried to look really closely at the thoughts as they arise - and in a way I can see that it's just thoughts - but I can't say it with any real confidence, so I believe the thoughts haven¨t been seen through properly. When looking for the thoughts that create doubt, it’s just a game that starts: there comes a new thought about he looker, which is believed. I believe the reason for this is that the thought is not seen through, only tried “controlled” – like telling myself “this is just a thought”.

The same happens when I check what is here right now - nothing is found but seeing, hearing, feeling, smelling, tasting and thoughts. - but there's no real confidence in it.when thoughts of doubt show up, they can be seen - but the doubts doesn't go away.

[Pete777]

just wanted to add onto my last rant:

when asking the question: did I know what this thought was going to be? - it can be seen that I didn't. this often cuts the belief in the thought - also with word-thoughts like the "I"-thought.

The seeing that the I is just a thought arising is kind of immediatly forgotten. not really the "what has been seen can't be unseen" happening here.

[Vivien]

Dear Pete,

Vivien: What is the actual experience of ‘frustration’? – describe it as detailed as you can.

Pete: Tightness in the body (contraction) and many thoughts about frustration, and sometimes thoughts about doing some things to release the pressure (like yell, usually not to this extreme though).

Pete, this description is NOT the ACTUAL experience of frustration.

“Tightness in the body (contraction)” – is not the actual experience of frustration, it’s the actual experience of a SENSATION.

“Thoughts about frustration” – is not the ACTUAL experience of frustration, it’s the actual experience of a thought ABOUT frustration.

“sometimes thoughts about doing some things to release the pressure (like yell, usually not to this extreme though).” - When yelling happens, not the frustration is being released, but there is just a change in sensation (from contraction to relaxation).

Can you see that frustration cannot be experienced? Because there is no such thing as frustration?
There are only THOUGHTS ABOUT frustration, but never an actual frustration as such. Can you see this?

What you’re trying to avoid is the contraction, which is nothing more than a sensation.
When contraction next time comes up, look at it very closely.

Does the pure sensation that is labelled as ‘contraction’ suggest in any way that this is bad, unwanted or even it is a contraction? Or only thoughts suggest this?
And what is it exactly that wants to get rid of the sensation?

Vivien: Is there really anything that could be frustrated?

Pete: No such thing found. But there is a belief it might be there.

Look very carefully.

What is an ACTUAL experience of a belief?
What is an ACTUAL experience of a belief that ‘there might be something that could be frustrated’?

Vivien: Thoughts may seem to cause concern, but can they really?

Pete: thoughts aren’t seen to cause anything, but there is a belief that they might be able to.

What is an ACTUAL experience of a belief that ‘thoughts might be able to cause concern’? – look very carefully.

Vivien: Or is concern about thoughts, just another thought?

Pete: Yes, but it may also lead to contractions in the body.

And whose problem is that? Seriously...

However, when thoughts with words show up, no equal seeing it as just a thought happens. instead another thought may come that says - you are only trying to deny this of self interest - the thought is still seen as reality

This second thought can also be questioned.

Can a thought know anything?

This may also happen with the image-thoughts - instead of the thought being seen as a thought - another thought comes (which is believed) with a negative message. when this happens over time the frustration rises and there are thoughts about "i will never get this".

And whose problem is the frustration?
Who cares?

The same happens when I check what is here right now - nothing is found but seeing, hearing, feeling, smelling, tasting and thoughts. - but there's no real confidence in it.when thoughts of doubt show up, they can be seen - but the doubts doesn't go away.

And then what? :) Whose problem is the doubting thoughts? Who cares?

The seeing that the I is just a thought arising is kind of immediatly forgotten. not really the "what has been seen can't be unseen" happening here.

OK, it seems that there is a misinterpretation of this term “what has been seen can’t be unseen”. It doesn’t mean that believing the thoughts or the I-thought won’t happen even thousand times a day. It means that WHEN it’s CHECKED it’s clear that there is no separate self. Do you see the difference?

Love, Vivien

[Pete777]

Can you see that frustration cannot be experienced? Because there is no such thing as frustration?

Frustration is only thoughts that come when the story doesn’t go as wanted. Frustration is no thing in itself. But when it is believed it can cause tenseness in the body.

There are only THOUGHTS ABOUT frustration, but never an actual frustration as such. Can you see this?

There are only sensations and thoughts in DE. No frustration found.

Does the pure sensation that is labelled as ‘contraction’ suggest in any way that this is bad, unwanted or even it is a contraction? Or only thoughts suggest this?

Interesting… when looking at contraction more closely it is not bad in itself, only some subtle thoughts say so.

And what is it exactly that wants to get rid of the sensation?

Don’t know. Thoughts want to get rid of it.

What is an ACTUAL experience of a belief?

When looking only thoughts are found¨

What is an ACTUAL experience of a belief that ‘there might be something that could be frustrated’?

Thoughts showing up

What is an ACTUAL experience of a belief that ‘thoughts might be able to cause concern’? – look very carefully.

At first it just appears as reality, but if zooming out it can be seen to just be an appearing thought

And whose problem is that? Seriously...

Don’t know

Can a thought know anything?

When a thought is seen as an arising thought, it is seen that it can’t know anything – it’s just an arising thought.

And whose problem is the frustration?

Who cares?

Don’t know

And then what? :) Whose problem is the doubting thoughts? Who cares?

There isn’t found anything behind the thoughts of doubt. Only doubt and sensations found.

OK, it seems that there is a misinterpretation of this term “what has been seen can’t be unseen”. It doesn’t mean that believing the thoughts or the I-thought won’t happen even thousand times a day. It means that WHEN it’s CHECKED it’s clear that there is no separate self. Do you see the difference?

Yes, I do.

[Vivien]

Dear Pete,

Interesting… when looking at contraction more closely it is not bad in itself, only some subtle thoughts say so

Yes, exactly :)

So is it clear that there is no such thing as frustration, only THOUGHTS ABOUT frustration, but frustration as such, cannot be found?

Vivien: And what is it exactly that wants to get rid of the sensation?

Pete: Don’t know. Thoughts want to get rid of it.

Can a thought want to do anything?
Or only thoughts appear ABOUT ‘wanting to get rid of’ or with the ‘content’: “I want to get rid of it”?
Can you see the difference?

Can you see that “I want to get rid of this sensation” is just an appearing thought and it doesn’t point to anything (to an individual)?

Vivien: What is an ACTUAL experience of a belief?

Pete: When looking only thoughts are found¨

So is it clear that there is no such thing as a belief, there are only THOUGHTS ABOUT beliefs, but a belief as such, cannot be found?

Vivien: What is an ACTUAL experience of a belief that ‘there might be something that could be frustrated’?

Pete: Thoughts showing up

So is it clear, that there are nothing, there is no separate individual that could experience or have a belief?
That there is only THOUGHTS ABOUT such an individual, but NEVER an actual individual?

Vivien: And whose problem is that? Seriously...

Pete: Don’t know

Then find that ‘thing’ that supposedly has problems. Where it is exactly?
Is there anything that could have problems?

What is the ACTUAL experience of a ‘problem’?

Vivien: Who cares?

Pete: Don’t know

Same as above. Don’t just say: I don’t know. But look! Find it.

Then find that ‘thing’ that supposedly cares. Where it is exactly?
Is there anything that could care?

What is the ACTUAL experience of a ‘caring’?

There isn’t found anything behind the thoughts of doubt. Only doubt and sensations found.

Ohhh…. What is the ACTUAL experience of a ‘doubt’?

Look very closely. Can ‘doubt’ be REALLY found, or are there only THOUGHTS ABOUT doubt?

Vivien: OK, it seems that there is a misinterpretation of this term “what has been seen can’t be unseen”. It doesn’t mean that believing the thoughts or the I-thought won’t happen even thousand times a day. It means that WHEN it’s CHECKED it’s clear that there is no separate self. Do you see the difference?

Pete: Yes, I do.

And can you accept it, be at peace with it?

Love, Vivien

[Pete777]

Hi Vivien,

just wanted to let you know that I will take a break from this. I appreciate your guiding.

-Pete

[Vivien]

Dear Pete,

Thank you for letting me know. If you change your mind at any time I’m here to continue.

I wish you all the best,
Vivien

[Pete777]

Hi. I decided to come back and post answers to the last questions :)

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

No. It is not found anywhere in direct experience. There never was.

2)Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

It is the story about an owner/doer of actions and thoughts, with responsibility. I don't know when it starts, but I guess it is an evolutionary strategy. How does it work: Thoughts take ownership of certain things. it is just thoughts about "me", and how I did this and that, and how I am a certain way. When the thoughts are believed certain actions often happen. F. ex negative thoughts leads to clenching in the body when they are believed. Thoughts about rejection may lead to breaking eye-contact. Of course the link between thought and action is not known in DE either.

3)How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

When the negative thoughts are seen to be thoughts, there is relaxation. Which is nice. This only seems to happen when inquiring actively. Other than that, very little has changed.

There is also a negative story about seeing this illusion for what it is: I have read stories about others that have lost motivation to be with people and participate in life. And that they have gotten lonely.

4)What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

My problem with the inquiry process was that I wasn't able to look with honesty. I didn't want truth, I just wanted to feel better. After having spent months searching for advice on how to look, I stumbled upon some advice from the TruthStrike-guys. It was this:

"Look _at_ the absence of an I, not _for_ the absence of an I".

I was then able to look at reality, not my wishes about reality. The I-thought pattern appeared, and there was a pattern recognition: what I thought was me, was actually just thoughts.

Nothing special happened.It was like "oh" - is that what it is all about? It was seen that there is thoughts, seeing, hearing, feeling and smelling, but no I in direct experience. I believe looking this way would have saved me months of trying to force myself to see it, so there is a wish for others that struggle to find this advice.

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control.

From the perspective of believing thoughts, all of these are things that I do/have. But on closer inspection, these are just thoughts, and doesn't refer to anything in direct experience. When believing in the story "I" am doing everything. But seeing that this is just thoughts, "I" do not do anything.

What makes things happen?

In direct experience things just happen

How does it work?

THis is not known in direct experience.

What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

From the perspective of believing the story I am responsible for my actions. When the story is seen to be a story, there is no I to be responsible for anything. F.e x: 1) delivering a book back to the library. On closer inspection there is no me to be responsible (but there is thoughts about delivering it back). 2) study-progress: on closer inspection there is just thoughts.

6) Anything to add?

There's still some searching going on. Curious about other's experience with "letting go". Something that allegedly speeds up the dropping away of old conditioning.

Thanks for your time and patience, Vivien :)

[Canfora]

Hi Pete! Vivien is travelling and without internet access at the moment, so I have asked the guides to read this conversation.

Here are some of their questions for you:

• What makes thinks happen, how does it work?

Questions for Q3:

• 1) There seems to be an expectation for personal change. Where is this person who would/could change....can you find this person?
  2) What is it that suffers from negative thoughts and are you the author of these thoughts?
  3) There seems to be a fear in 'seeing' through the self? What is it that you are afraid of and exactly what is it that can be fearful?
  4) What would care if motivation to be with others were lost?
  5) Is there a self that participates in life?

Questions for Q6:

• 1) Where is this self that is still searching and wanting to 'let go'?

[Pete777]

What makes thinks happen, how does it work?

In DE thinking just happens. It is not known how.

Questions for Q3:

1) There seems to be an expectation for personal change. Where is this person who would/could change....can you find this person?

When buying into thoughts there is a person that can change. When thoughts are seen to be thoughts there is no person to be found, only thoughts.

2) What is it that suffers from negative thoughts and are you the author of these thoughts?

When thoughts are seen for what they are, no one suffers. And no author of the thoughts are found in DE.

3) There seems to be a fear in 'seeing' through the self? What is it that you are afraid of and exactly what is it that can be fearful?

The fear is comes from stories others have told about life after seeing through the illusion. What can be fearful? In thoughts: me. In de: nothing to be fearful is found.

4) What would care if motivation to be with others were lost?

in DE: nothing is found

5) Is there a self that participates in life?

not as a separate, existing entity. only as a thought-story that probably has evolved during evolution

Questions for Q6:
1) Where is this self that is still searching and wanting to 'let go'?

nowhere to be found in DE