Searching for answers - Shirley777

[JonathanR]

Hi Shirley,

Jon yes I can't find where thoughts come from and the I, and have no control over them. May I ask why they happen.

I don't know the answer to that any more than I know why anything happens. In experience of nature there is extraordinary complexity and beauty but no real control over anything. Have you noticed this?

You should try going for a walk in the park soon, or in nature. Find a place where everything is alive, sun, clouds, wind, grass, people, amimals, insects. Just be there and experience the sensations of everything, including the body and any thoughts. Then take a look. Is it possible to find a line where 'you' end and 'everything else' begins? Is there a line that separates 'you' from 'expereience' or is it all flowing together?

So are thoughts any different from everything else in experience that comes and goes, appears and disappears? Why do bees happen? I don't now, but it's fun that they do.

The ego I have got hooked on this like it has a will of its own probably because I studied psychology and learnt about the ego and the super ego and the id many years ago. I found it hard back then to accept and understand it so to relearn it all again differently was hard. Well I was making it difficult, because in reality it doesn't exist when I simply try to find it.

Yes. It's good to be seeing through this, It's a kind of structure. A kind of belief/understanding about how things are supposed to be, isn't it? It is interesting that you found it hard to accept years ago. Anyway, it's very good that you can't find any actual evidence for 'ego' now in immediate experience.

I feel connected to you and feel your love Jon, thank you.
I am experiencing moments of nothingness where I feel light and free and peace.

That's great Shirley. I'm so glad this is working.

Can you look now again and tell me how things like 'choosing' or 'deciding' happen?

Love

Jon

[Shirley777]

Yes I have noticed or began to notice there is no real control over nature and am seeing the beauty for the first time. I have been in aw of things in the past and do lose myself when I do art. So perhaps I have but just not realised.
I have been out with nature today and cannot find a beginning or a end. Everything feels like one.
Yes understand what you mean by bees just happening and it being fun. I have always just took them for granted and seen them as having role in pollination and making honey. But they are amazing and today I noticed them properly for the first time.

[Shirley777]

I don't know how choosing or deciding happens it just does. Today I thought about it and realised that I think about it and thought I made them the I. Choices and decisions seem to fit the situation. So maybe something inside is stimulated by the situation. I don't no it's all confusing. I'm looking now as I type for where the choices and decisions come from. It's automatic or an impulse.

Thank you
Shirley

[JonathanR]

Yes I have noticed or began to notice there is no real control over nature and am seeing the beauty for the first time. I have been in aw of things in the past and do lose myself when I do art. So perhaps I have but just not realised.
I have been out with nature today and cannot find a beginning or a end. Everything feels like one.

Great Shirley! Is it clear that the 'self' never existed (other than as a thought)? If so that could be why 'self' seemed to be lost when doing art?

I don't know how choosing or deciding happens it just does. Today I thought about it and realised that I think about it and thought I made them the I. Choices and decisions seem to fit the situation. So maybe something inside is stimulated by the situation. I don't no it's all confusing. I'm looking now as I type for where the choices and decisions come from. It's automatic or an impulse.

'Choosing' and 'decisions'can be a little trickier to notice at first than the absence of a 'self'.

Here are a couple of exercises. Try them both and let me know how it goes?

If there were a 'choser' it would be possible to notice exactly when the choice is being made, wouldn't it? Because if a choice is made, its maker must choose?

So place both hands on a table in front of you. You will raise one hand high in the air but leave the other on the table where it is. Look carefully for the very moment that a choice is made. Is it possible to notice the choice being made and exactly when it is made?

As regards decisions, go and make a warm drink. Once it is made, come back and read the rest of this.

Was a decision to get up noticed and if so, was there a 'decider'? Limbs moved in smooth coordination in order to reach the kettle, fill it and switch it on. Was any of this 'decided' by someone or did it just seem to flow in predictable fashion?

Love

Jon

[Shirley777]

Yes I have done art all day and have be in the moment no sign of self, I noticed thoughts now and again. I started at 12pm and finished at 4.30pm it felt like minutes.

There is no chooser I can see that now.
With regards to the exercise of my hands on the table I had thoughts about it the seer observed these but as for moving my hand this just happened I could not find the I observe making the decision to do this but something must have. Kinda blew my mind really.

The same thing for making the warm drink no time did I see the I make a decision to do this but clearly one is made but how I cannot see. thoughts about it were observed and I knew inside I was going to do the task but it all just happened like you said in a predictable manner.
I wonder though if I had spilt the drink would I have thought about it and made a choice to clean it or would this be the same would I in response to the stimula just do it automatically but have thoughts about it making me think I made the choice. I do however choose to clean up on Saturdays and do this in the morning. These again are thoughts about it but I cannot find the I the person behind this only the observer.
Again you open me to new experiences.
Thank you
Shirley

[Shirley777]

I spilt some paint I observed thoughts about it negative ones I did not judge them I was telling myself I need to clean it up. I did clean it up but I could not find who made the decision to do this.

[Shirley777]

BeeN observing things I been doing and looking for the self making the decisions but I can't find it. But that has made me wonder if there is no chooser or decision maker in the sense of self why do I do things that are not positive for me. I would have usually said why do I make poor choices and decide to do negative things for example like over eat. I can be thinking about food for a long time trying to ignore the thoughts and then all of a sudden I go and get something. This just happened and I observed it happen I could not find the self doing this only the thoughts about it which were negative.
Am I confusing things.
What I think I've learned is there is no I or self that makes choices or decisions. This doesn't feel right and I think I'm still struggling to understand. Sorry Jon I'm trying really hard.
Thank you
Shirley

[JonathanR]

Hi Shirley,

What I think I've learned is there is no I or self that makes choices or decisions. This doesn't feel right and I think I'm still struggling to understand. Sorry Jon I'm trying really hard.

You are actually doing very well. I apologise for not replying very long this evening becasue I have a headache but I will post tomorrow.

You don't have to try really hard, just with a little bit of focus and honesty, which you are doing already.


Jon

[Shirley777]

Sorry you had an headache hope I'm not causing it. Only joking of course.

I make decisions everyday and choices everyday based on what's happening around me and what I'm thinking about, for example I thought about my friend when out today and decided to go and see her I made this choice instead of going home. but behind all of this I cannot find the I the self. So who is making these choices and decisions or what or how. I don't know. I'm really giving it a lot of thought. Actions don't just happen I often think before I act and try to make the right choice and weigh up what to do. So if this happens who's doing it. How can it be an illusion when it happens. Confused still. Hope you are feeling better.
Shirley

[JonathanR]

Hi Shirley,

I make decisions everyday and choices everyday based on what's happening around me and what I'm thinking about, for example I thought about my friend when out today and decided to go and see her I made this choice instead of going home.

Did 'you' decide though? I am not questioning that this experience happened but how it may have happened. Did the thought of your friend simply pop up? So, did 'you' 'think' it? If the thought simply appeared, as you saw before, it wasn't created by a 'self', was it? It was more like a flower that opens or a cloud that appears in the sky?

If you look for who or what 'makes the decison', can a decider be found? It is almost impossible to do this successfuully whilst thinking about past decisions because already there is an idea of a 'me' in the 'past'. It may be that walking or driving towards your friend's house began to happen first and that thought took the credit for 'deciding' to go to and see her, and that thought would not have been created by 'you' either. The problem with this is that it is hypothetical now.

You need to explore actual decisions as they are apparently made. Go and make a cup of tea. Once you have done this, come back and read the rest of this....


Was a 'decision' taken to move the legs in order to walk to the kettle? Did a decider decide to fill the kettle, switch it on and get a cup? What actualy happened? Did some of this happen automatically? Was it noticed that decision was made about walking back to your screen? Or did that also just happen? If there is a 'decider' could this simply be thoughts anouncing ideas like 'I am returning to my screen'?

Love

Jon

[Shirley777]

Yes the thought did just pop up from nowhere. Wow ok.

Yes I made the brew I thought about it plenty and no way could I find anything or body or I deciding anything. It happens automatically. I think I'm getting it now. Thank you. Kinda mind blowing to accept at first.

So when I make plans yesterday to go shopping today, the time etc. but cannot find the self here that did it but what about the planning to do this I cannot still find a self but yet the arrangements are for me alone and I Did the planned task on the day I planned and time. But still no sign of self. I thought about it all day and searched for self but only the seer. So iwhat drives me to carry out tasks like shopping etc...

Thank you
Shirley

[JonathanR]

Hi Shirley,

Yes I made the brew I thought about it plenty and no way could I find anything or body or I deciding anything. It happens automatically. I think I'm getting it now. Thank you. Kinda mind blowing to accept at first.

Beautiful. It is kinda mind blowing at first.

So when I make plans yesterday to go shopping today, the time etc. but cannot find the self here that did it but what about the planning to do this I cannot still find a self but yet the arrangements are for me alone

Arrangements for 'you alone' is a thought. Isn't it just that arrangements get made? Arrangements seem to be made for 'a person', 'Shirley', by a person 'Shirley' but can the maker of decisions be found anywhere? And the one the decision is 'for'...can that 'self' be found?

and I Did the planned task on the day I planned and time. But still no sign of self. I thought about it all day and searched for self but only the seer. So iwhat drives me to carry out tasks like shopping etc...

Is there a 'me' that is 'driven'? There could be a sensation of hunger if shopping didn't happen. A moving towards shopping is going to happen, isn't it? But is there a 'me' that 'decides' to do this?

Love,

Jon

[Shirley777]

No there is no me anywhere. I can't find the maker of decisions anywhere. Yes arrangements are made for Shirley but I can't find them or who makes them for her. There is no me driven. So do things happen to survive on a physical level, like go shopping paying bills and working. But i have been so wrapped up in my thinking about these things and think my thoughts are real and the self doing these things is real. But it's not there is no me. Wow Jon I think I'm getting there.

So when I'm eating more than I need and do this without thinking what is making me do this. Well I think I'm not thinking. I think I may have the answer the only time I don't think about food is when I'm eating but the rest of the time I am thinking about it and am in fear of being hungry. I am therefore responding to the thoughts and the illusion of self trying to feed my fear literally. I wonder what would happen if every time I go to get food I looking for the observer and watch my thoughts and try to experience fully and if I eat do it in the moment taste it, notice the texture the sound etc. I think I will do this and hope I'm on the right track. I look forward to your response.
Thank you
Love
Shirley

[JonathanR]

Hi Shirley,

But i have been so wrapped up in my thinking about these things and think my thoughts are real and the self doing these things is real. But it's not there is no me. Wow Jon I think I'm getting there.

Great!

So when I'm eating more than I need and do this without thinking what is making me do this. Well I think I'm not thinking. I think I may have the answer the only time I don't think about food is when I'm eating but the rest of the time I am thinking about it and am in fear of being hungry. I am therefore responding to the thoughts and the illusion of self trying to feed my fear literally. I wonder what would happen if every time I go to get food I looking for the observer and watch my thoughts and try to experience fully and if I eat do it in the moment taste it, notice the texture the sound etc. I think I will do this and hope I'm on the right track

That sounds really good Shirley. Yes, look at the whole process. Patterns of behaviour can fall away and perhaps time plays a part but expectation is always worth noticing too. Is there a 'self' that 'over-eats'? Is there a 'self' that can 'prevent this' from happening?

Noticing the sensations is a really good idea. Is there a 'me' having, in or behind the sensations or is it simply sensations happening?

Love,

Jon

[Shirley777]

There is no me at all experiencing the sensations I just experience. It's a whole new world now.
There is a massive expectation to fail and be fat but there is no self doing this it is in my mind an illusion that I attach to. I have no self that over eats or that can prevent this. knowing this doesn't cure the problem but it helps me to understand what is happening my thoughts and expectations that I cling to and make real.
Thank you so much
Love
Shirley