Back for round 2. Any guides to close the case please?

[arora]

Thanks for trusting me Mark

Could it be that some kind of grieving process could be happening here, the loosening of grip on what had been hoped for?

That could be a perfectly valid explanation for it. My other explanation is (all from the mind I realise) that the baseline anxiety/restlessness/even sadness has always been there, just notice more now. Either way, it is okay.

is there truly anyone or anything there that can accept or reject this moment's happening, in all its excitement, wildness, craziness, dullness, sadness, emptiness, happiness - whatever way that it expresses itself? Could there ever be anyone truly able to do that?

took a week of checking and rechecking and again there is no 'I' there to accept or reject this moment. In this understanding though the mind settles down and we can perhaps call that acceptance of this moment?

let me try a few of the questions first-

1. No, there is no separate entity 'I' that can be found in direct experience. I have to deduce from the present experience that there wouldn't have been any 'i' in the past either.

2. Illusion of separate self is a belief system that runs everything, all experiences through itself, like a computer program. Everything is interpreted as happening to me rather than just happening. Also what is seen very clearly is the commentating nature of thoughts/mind, which always run just a touch behind the present moment and tend to own an event unless seen as they are- just commentry!
As far as how it starts, I can only speculate to whether it is an innate trait of developed human brain, or perhaps a learned behaviour coming from thousands of years of training in the society.

3. Differences from before and now
- An okayness to events
- less escaping from feelings
- more intense feeling of feelings but lasting much less time
- Minimal mulling over the past, or worrying about the future
- a more frequent auto-check of 'who s there?'

Similarities to before
- interest in this non-dual subject and wish to explore more and more. Would I call this seeking? I'm not sure
- pretty much everything else in daily life.

Will get back to you soon for the rest

Thanks again Mark
Kind regards
Sandeep

[ElPortal]

HI Sandeep

That's great: really enjoyed reading those clear, honest answers, and look forward to the rest with you are ready with them: great!

Just one little mini-question on your last point:-

- interest in this non-dual subject and wish to explore more and more. Would I call this seeking? I'm not sure

If there's something lacking then it's seeking. If there's a curious exploring of this wild ride which is already happening, then I'd call it exploring. So which does it feel like, Sandeep?

:-)

Mark

[arora]

Hi Mark

If there's something lacking then it's seeking. If there's a curious exploring of this wild ride which is already happening, then I'd call it exploring. So which does it feel like, Sandeep?

I have to admit, there is quite often a want of more...and a curious looking at right now that although it is okay and perfect but is there something special about this. That would probably describe it for me at the moment.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look? 

I think just sticking to exploration and your questioning brought to the point of either quitting again or to dig deeper and accept what is seen, even though mind would keep coming up with the same doubts again and again. The other thing that was helpful in sorting out was understanding the difference between mind searching and present-moment looking.
 

5) Describe how deciding, intending, choosing and controlling events in Life happens? What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Please try to describe the process as best you can, even if gropingly. Don't forget to give some practical examples from your everyday-life experience eg choosing a meal, operating a computer etc (even if there is no real 'you'!)
6) Anything to add?

Okay, I'll have a crack at it. Decision making has been a big one for me..the understanding now is that a decision or a choice is made automatically..perhaps another way to say it can be that a desire arises which is followed and action is taken. That desire or a feeling could be influenced by innate personality, external factors ,environment, genes, conditioning, learning etc etc. Although it can be said that a particular choice was e.g., guided by someone's advice, but the innumerable other factors that guide it, to bring about that moment's action would all account for it.
What makes things happen seems to be inter-connected everything!
Perhaps any answer to 'how does it work' would be just thought up stuff.
What am I responsible for?...hmmm it's easy to answer this with 'there is no I to be responsible for anything' but what feels more true is- perhaps whatever responsibility this moment brings that's what 'I' would be responsible for!


That's all that is coming today. My apologies for taking so long but somehow it just takes time for me. Will get back to you soon with some practical examples and anything else to add.
Meanwhile would love to get your comments.

Thank you kindly.
Regards
Sandeep

[ElPortal]

Hi Sandeep,

Thanks for all that. Whilst you consider your examples and Q6, I have a couple of points:-

First:-

I have to admit, there is quite often a want of more...and a curious looking at right now that although it is okay and perfect but is there something special about this. That would probably describe it for me at the moment.

a) If we have the mindset that there might be something MORE special on offer than THIS, then a magic-experience salesman may come by (or a 'spiritual teacher', or author) suggesting that (s)he has a secret method of Thinking Only of Peanuts, or Meditate on Divine Geometry (or insert other special 'enlightened' practice), and only the initiates, or participants, achieve the real special peak experience. (I'm exaggerating perhaps, but hopefully you get the idea). So please let me know whether you are still looking for something more special than THIS. Or is it seen that THIS changing, ever-metamorphosing, evolving moment with ALL of its alive sensations, is ALL THERE IS? This is a very important point to consider (and answer please) as it indicates whether there is just a healthy curiosity to continue the white-water rafting of life, or is there instead a hankering after something which is not THIS, but 'THAT over there'.
b) Is there any individual to feel either of the above? What is it that is feeling that?

Second:-

What am I responsible for?...hmmm it's easy to answer this with 'there is no I to be responsible for anything' but what feels more true is- perhaps whatever responsibility this moment brings that's what 'I' would be responsible for!

Thanks for the honesty. Not sure I quite understand that though.
a) So what is it that is responsible? And to what or whom is it responsible?
b) Is there something going on there other than a continuous flow of life? Can you find a 'Sandeep' particle which is responsible for something?

and Third (à propos of nothing in particular):-
What is it that has been doing this looking, this investigation?

Cheers

Mark

[arora]

Hi Mark

So please let me know whether you are still looking for something more special than THIS. Or is it seen that THIS changing, ever-metamorphosing, evolving moment with ALL of its alive sensations, is ALL THERE IS? This is a very important point to consider (and answer please) as it indicates whether there is just a healthy curiosity to continue the white-water rafting of life, or is there instead a hankering after something which is not THIS, but 'THAT over there'.

Sorry about the late and patchy replies. There is often so much searching in the mind, and then suddenly there is just present moment experience and clear seeing that this moment is all there is and this is okay.

b) Is there any individual to feel either of the above? What is it that is feeling that?

a) So what is it that is responsible? And to what or whom is it responsible?
b) Is there something going on there other than a continuous flow of life? Can you find a 'Sandeep' particle which is responsible for something?

When the whorl of mind is going off, specially with a challenging life situation like last few days, and i sit with these questions; only result is sticky thoughts and theories which attract attention for a little while until it is noticed that these are just mind stuff. There is an effort, what seems like originates from the filter of I (my guess is just another part of thinking) and at the time it is just hard to see anything.
But right now there is no individual, and just a lightness. Now, there is preference for this over the other, which explains my previous answer as well.

What is it that has been doing this looking, this investigation?

hmmm..this was good, it did hit somewhere, can i please sit with this for another couple of days and get back to you.
Mark, I also hope that I am not frustrating you with slowness and half baked responses, I just feel that rushing ends up in mindville again.
Thank you kindly
Sandeep

[ElPortal]

Hi Sandeep,

Thanks for that reply. Sure, take whatever time is needed.

Just one question arises (but I'll keep it to a minimum, not to complicate matters). You write:-

But right now there is no individual, and just a lightness.

From the perpective of right now (and if you can find another perspective, I'd like to hear about this ;-) ) was there ever an individual, can a real one eve be found retrospectively?

Warmly,

Mark

[arora]

Hi Mark
I am back! :)

Let me take a step back and discuss this morning's process. There has been a lot of frustration in the past few days, almost desire to quit this looking 'because I'm stuck and not getting any further' etc. I also realised that what I had understood so far was a very convinced understanding but perhaps not seeing of what you are talking about.
Now without sounding dramatic, this morning sitting with your posts from last few weeks, there was a definite seeing of layer of thoughts operating over whatever is going on. So the 'me' is perhaps this layer of thoughts that tries to see and tries to argue and tries to control and tries to choose thoughts.
It feels like I would need some guidance from here because it seems very fragile. A bit of doubt as well that what if there is losing in mindville again.

Thanks so much for staying with me Mark.
Kind regards
Sandeep

[ElPortal]

HI Sandeep,

I am back!

Or shoudl I call you "Back"? ;-)

Thanks for sharing this. Sounds from what you are saying like a layer of thought is seen which interprets whatever is being experienced as "I". Is that correct? Is that still appearing to be so?

Notice for a minute, Sandeep: all of experience is continually changing, just as (so science tells us, everything in the Universe is continually changing - some quickly like breath, sub-atomic movement, some slowly like the movement of the planets, or like a tree growing). But all experience is never not changing, shifting, evolving - even moods. Yes?

Now I would like you to consider this: what is it that is noticing all this? Tunnel backwards, drill in reverse. Turn the cameras on 'what is looking'? See what comes up.

Warmly

Mark

[arora]

Hi Mark
Hope you are well.
It has been a 4 week gap since my last post. I have had nothing new to report, it has been just life as usual. I have revisited our discussion and your questions during everyday activities at the back of my head and come to report following:
- there has been genuine seeing of functioning of life and no perceptible self, especially before my last post that I described as seeing of layer of thoughts. However the everyday functioning of life runs (mostly) through the filter of belief of self.
- the automatic belief in self is loosened but still works in the background behind most of the thought patterns. So it must be too firm to be dissolved with momentary seeing of no-self.
- Beliefs and seeing have come a long way since I started but there is a feeling that there may be something further.
- I have somewhat accepted this as the way life is at this stage.
So I don't know if you have any suggestion to keep at it, exploring; or if I am just going in circles with this and it is best to take a break.
Many thanks for your kindness, Mark; I couldn't have asked for anything more.
Regards
Sandeep

[ElPortal]

Hi Sandeep

Good to hear from you, as always, my friend. Thanks for the compliments. Truly my privilege.

- Beliefs and seeing have come a long way since I started but there is a feeling that there may be something further.

Can you tell me about this. What is the feeling? What references? What ideas?

However the everyday functioning of life runs (mostly) through the filter of belief of self.

Can you show me a moment, a NOW moment (other than in memory projections, retrospective assumptions) when the belief of self is operative? If so, please describe the example and how the 'self' is working.

As for taking a break: sure, relaxing can be good rather than tensing up, and looking can also happen in a relaxed way, and may even be better done in that fashion, rather than stressing about 'trying to get it'.
And consider, who or what is there to get anything? What is there, other than life just happening, exactly how it's happening in this moment?

Cheers

Mark

[arora]

Hi Mark

- Beliefs and seeing have come a long way since I started but there is a feeling that there may be something further.

Can you tell me about this. What is the feeling? What references? What ideas?

However the everyday functioning of life runs (mostly) through the filter of belief of self.


Can you show me a moment, a NOW moment (other than in memory projections, retrospective assumptions) when the belief of self is operative? If so, please describe the example and how the 'self' is working.

I think this is my sticking point, and both these questions can be answered in one-
So there is seeing of 'no self to be found' when looked. But the belief of self is operative most of the times. An example would be the arising of a thought that would say 'I should not have gone out in the cold without a jacket' or ' I am really annoyed at this' Or 'I don't know what to do next' (Arising of thought is a now moment, seen and analysed in retrospect of course, like any other thought)
So to me, these thoughts that arise referring to an 'I' perhaps mean that the seeing is not complete, or deep enough, or there is more to it.

Look forward to your comments
Thanks and regards
Sandeep

[ElPortal]

Hi Sandeep

Could you please take your last post and go through half-sentence by half-sentence, expression by expression, phrase by phrase, and after each add the label either (e) for direct experience, that first-hand now knowing, or (t), concepts, thought, assumption, interpretation, mental analysis, mental speculation, reasoning, recall etc.

there is seeing of 'no self to be found' when looked

So, when that is NOT the case, when there seems to be a self operative, can you EVER find one of those moments in direct experience (e) or only in thought/speculation/memory/assumption (t)?
What is the experience of 'most of the times'? Is 'most of the times' ever actually experienced (e), or only referenced as a concept (t)? ie are all of those times of 'not seeing' EVER anywhere except in thought?

Then, is there a move to live life primarily via (e) or via (t)?
Whichever the answer: enjoy!!

Love

Mark

[arora]

Hi Mark
I enjoyed this exercise.

I think this is my sticking point

belief i.e. T

So there is seeing of 'no self to be found'

I am unsure how to categrise that, could be a belief or a direct experience depending on whether I am talking about now experience or past experience

But the belief of self is operative most of the times

T

the arising of a thought

E (if i label this as T, then everything will have to be T because it is only in slight retrospect that a description can be made of anything arising in the knowing. Do you agree, Mark??)

that would say 'I should not have gone out in the cold without a jacket' or ' I am really annoyed at this' Or 'I don't know what to do next'

Mental analysis i.e. T

So, when that is NOT the case, when there seems to be a self operative, can you EVER find one of those moments in direct experience (e) or only in thought/speculation/memory/assumption (t)?
What is the experience of 'most of the times'? Is 'most of the times' ever actually experienced (e), or only referenced as a concept (t)? ie are all of those times of 'not seeing' EVER anywhere except in thought?

I see what you mean, it's only thoughts again that comment on past experience of getting lost in thoughts. Direct experience can be Always seen as no self operating! I see.
Would that also mean Mark that it is constant disregarding of the content of thoughts?

Many thanks and regards
Sandeep

[ElPortal]

Hi Sandeep,

Wow, that was quick!!

Direct experience can be Always seen as no self operating! I see.

Great!! Seeing!
(Not sure what you mean by 'no self operating' - I cannot find what it is that is operating, but still... quite exciting to read that response!)

Would that also mean Mark that it is constant disregarding of the content of thoughts?

No I would not agree that contents of thoughts are to be disregarded. They can be honoured, enjoyed and respected... BUT AS THOUGHTS, which is very different from taking them as EXPERIENCE, or as REALITIES! They are reports and claims ONLY, are they not?
Let thoughts be thoughts, claims be claims, and experience be experience. Let (t) be (t) and (e) be (e)!

Now, can you EVER find a real self in the direct experience? Can you ever find a moment when 'the belief in self came back' in direct experience? Spend the next 24 hours looking, researching, noticing. Thoughts about it don't count. Memories about it don't count. Speculations about it don't count. Premonitions about it don't count.
Can you ACTUALLY EXPERIENCE IT?

Big Smile.

Mark