Looking for a guide

[marknathan]

I think the "wanting to see" has been getting in the way, but there's a gradual - very gradual- relaxation around that. I'm dropping in the question "where is 'I' in this experience?" throughout the day, whatever I'm doing. I've been frustrated, wanting something to happen. In my last post I said "there's no 'I' to see" and although in a way I can see that - I can't find an "I", just experience,thoughts and feelings - the "seeing" hasn't been a deep seeing, by which I mean there's still present a belief in "me". But I think it's being eroded, slowly. I'm just staying with experience as often as I can, reflecting on your questions and reading and re-reading the LU Enlightened Quotes. "There is no 'I' to see" is a helpful reflection, because a lot of the thoughts that come up are around "what I'll be like when I see" - "won't I be great" :-)
Other than doing the above, I don't know where else to take the conversation :-)

[codyjdennis]

Just wanted to check in. I am busy moving apartments..packing etc and haven't had time to respond fully to everyone I'm guiding tonight. I will try and do so tomorrow. Thanks for your patience.

Best,
Cody

[marknathan]

No problem, Cody - good luck with the move!

[codyjdennis]

Thank you so much for waiting. Almost done moving in, but I thought I'd respond.

[quote]I can't find an "I", just experience,thoughts and feelings - the "seeing" hasn't been a deep seeing, by which I mean there's still present a belief in "me". But I think it's being eroded, slowly. I'm just staying with experience as often as I can, reflecting on your questions and reading and re-reading the LU Enlightened Quotes. "There is no 'I' to see" is a helpful reflection, because a lot of the thoughts that come up are around "what I'll be like when I see" - "won't I be great" :-) /quote]

Nice :)

It's okay if it's not deep right now. Now that it's been seen through a bit it can start to dissolve. It's dissolved in a way that eventually it's just not believed anymore. It usually doesn't happen right away though.

Stay with experience the next day or so and look every so often throughout the day. Keep checking if there is an a solid entity (self) other than just a thought.

Best,
Cody

[marknathan]

Hi Cody,
I thought it was about time I reported in, just to let you know what's going on. I hope all went well with the move.
It occurred to me the other day that I never really thanked you for taking the time to guide me. It's a really generous thing to do, to help people like this. So, thank you.
Where am I? Ha! Good question :-) Well, I've been looking and looking, staying with experience and looking for an I under it all. There has been a lot of frustration. Even just today, I woke up feeling pissed off, groggy and disheartened. But at some point in the afternoon I remembered to look at the feeling. It dissolves a little then. I asked, who is feeling this? And there's no answer.
I told you before that I've been reading the phone app quotes - just letting them roll around, one at a time. I've also started reading Gateless Gatecrashers. It's very striking, what people say about the ordinariness of it. I've been looking for a... What? A big experience. A dissolving of myself.
Reading one of the conversations tonight, I really, really looked. Can I see a self without referencing thoughts, feelings or sensations? There's just silence. A sense of aliveness. I began to wonder if this was the real seeing. I don't know. Should I know? Like with "true love" - you'll just know :-)

I can see thought patterns. Patterns that arise from habitual feelings, formed over years. There's the body, that familiar face in the mirror. Sensations, and responses to those sensations. Behind all that? Silence. This is a weird sensations. Even typing this now, I don't know who the hell is typing. No one! Who am I writing to?! Is all this still intellectual? Am I just telling you what I think you want to hear? It's late here now, so I'll sign off, try get some sleep and see how things are in the morning. Wide awake though, with a lot of energy in the chest.
Night, Cody.

[codyjdennis]

Thanks for checking in.

It did go well. I'm all moved in now. Thanks for asking.

It occurred to me the other day that I never really thanked you for taking the time to guide me. It's a really generous thing to do, to help people like this. So, thank you.

You're welcome. I'm happy to help out.

Can I see a self without referencing thoughts, feelings or sensations? There's just silence

Yes :) Just 'silence'.

Even typing this now, I don't know who the hell is typing. No one! Who am I writing to?! Is all this still intellectual?

Awesome :)

A lot of the time people conceptualize "no one". They do this in contrast to the idea they held before that there is 'someone'. If you notice though, both of them are just thoughts. We just use 'no self' here because it is a more accurate tool for communication purposes. Still, both of them are not true. Why? Because if we look in our experience we cannot find them. They are just thoughts, pure imagination. So the seeing here is basically that the self we think we are (I, me, mine, myself) is false. It's imagination.

Who am I writing to?! Is all this still intellectual?

I couldn't tell you who you're writing to. Lol. All I can give is a description and that is not reality :).

[marknathan]

No one typing. Just life living. Thoughts about what's happening. Expectations. Is this it? But a lightness, relaxation, acceptance of things.
I was struggling to find something that isn't there. That was the trouble. It was like I expected to find the observer. It still "feels"like there is one.
Is that feeling of "being" real? I guess it is? But it's just being? Consciousness?

There's still doubt. Who's doubting? Not sure what's going on. I keep going to compare it to other people's experience. That's probably not helpful. Just looking for a benchmark. Lack of trust in the experience and my understanding of it.

[codyjdennis]

No one typing. Just life living. Thoughts about what's happening. Expectations. Is this it? But a lightness, relaxation, acceptance of things.
I was struggling to find something that isn't there. That was the trouble. It was like I expected to find the observer. It still "feels"like there is one.
Is that feeling of "being" real? I guess it is? But it's just being? Consciousness?

Nice :)

Well, I can't really answer the last question for you. The observer, consciousness, being, are all just names. That's why this is not a game of thought. All I can say is you're here, alive, but it can't be named. It's not an I, consciousness, awareness. And I'm just pointing out the fact that while we are so obviously here all that mumbo jumbo are just more words. It's fine to use them, but that's all they are.

I keep going to compare it to other people's experience. That's probably not helpful. Just looking for a benchmark. Lack of trust in the experience and my understanding of it.

It's not really helpful. The mind does that though. It's actually quite funny, because are you ever actually experiencing someone else's experience?

All it ends up being is imagination about another persons experience. It's not their actual experience.

[marknathan]

So, where do we go from here, friend Cody?
I'm afraid "I'm" still not through the gate.
There are moments of clearer seeing, but there still seems to be resistance. Ok, let me be devil's advocate for a moment, just to give voice to a commonly recurring pattern of thought: so, Mark, I, is a label given to a bundle of impulses, physical, emotional, psychological - so what? It "feels" like there's a me, what difference does it make if there isn't? Hmm... This feels like a sullen child. Comes up quite a lot. The last defence of a desperate ego?
I'm close, Cody. I'm right at the gate. (And forgive the pronouns). But I need help. I'm doing a lot of work on my own but I need a good push.

[codyjdennis]

It "feels" like there's a me, what difference does it make if there isn't? Hmm... This feels like a sullen child. Comes up quite a lot.

The difference is that there isn't a separate 'you' at all. And when there's no separate you, there is also no other.

Nothing bad that ever happened, occurred to a personal 'you'. Nothing is personal. Even if it feels like it sometimes, it's not. Life is wild and crazy, but it doesn't happen to a someone.

Any betterment of a person is also based on the idea that there is a separate you getting better. Which there is not. The freeing part of it, is there isn't a requirement for this to show up any particular way. It has free range.

That's a big difference. Still, those of sort of byproducts.

From my experience this allows a noticing what IS here. What is alive. It isn't a thought about yourself. It's fresh and silent. And needs no definition.

[codyjdennis]

And no worries about the pronouns, but that's where all of this gets tricky.

For example when you say "I am close." A thought doesn't get close. That whole thing is just a story. If you look into experience right now you'll notice (similar to what you said) that it isn't really an "I" that is here. The "I" story like we normally think is completely in our minds. Imagination.

You could take all the thoughts you ever thunk and put them in a basket in front of you and they would be of no substance.

I understand that part of the trick is that they keep running and running and running and this whole thing could get confusing. But just bring attention back to this moment and less in the head and just notice. What is here? What is alive? It's not a thought, is it??

[marknathan]

Hi Cody,

It's been a while; I hope things are well with you and you're all settled into your new place.

I'm afraid I lost heart a little toward the end of our last conversation. I haven't let the process go entirely, though the investigation hasn't been nearly as intense as it was early in the summer. There have been moments since. One night last week I woke up in the middle of the night and really saw that there was no one doing the thinking. It was quite scary.I know I should have looked behind the fear but I think I just fell asleep :-)

I really want to re-engage, and I wondered if you would like to continue the conversation or if I should work with someone else. What do you think?

All the best,

Mark