Nobody home

[Stoneburg]

:) what is doing thinking? Good question. Is there a thinker? How would you know? What informs about the presence of a thinker?

Thoughts appear, indicating that there is a source that they appear from. They do not appear from the mind, they appear in the mind, or rather, create the illusion of a mind by appearing.
There is a desire to trace thoughts to the source in order to ”plug the leak” so to speak, because the mind wants to be at peace, and thoughts are not peaceful.
When there is an attempt to move towards the source the experience is a bit like trying to move through a jet stream of water closer and closer to the outlet. The closer awareness gets, the stronger the resistance. Resistance shows up as all kinds of distractions and diversions. The source does not want to be identified, the leak does not want to be plugged. Like the Wizard of Oz, hiding behind a curtain and creating illusions, not wanting to be found out, because that destroys the illusion.

It seems imperative to find this source. At the moment, the world is practically run by thoughts, but ”people” aren’t thinking them. Nobody is questioning where do the thoughts come from, since everyone is assuming they are ”doing” it. If the whole planet is being run by thoughts, it seems like it would make sense to figure out where they come from. Thoughts are running everything (or almost) and we don’t know where they come from, that’s a problem.

Here is an exercise for you http://markedeternal.blogspot.co.uk/2012/05/labels.html
Do it here or on paper, it will help to shed some light on how language creates a doer.
Write what you noticed.

I am sitting in a chair, in front of a computer. I am breathing. I am thinking that ”I am thinking”. I am moving my hands to type these words out. I hesitated and made a choice to type ”words” rather than ”things”. I am having energies move and release in my throat. I am sweating a bit because it is warm. I am waiting for something to happen. I am not experiencing that many thoughts. I feel pretty relaxed. I just had a thought about a woman. I am feeling some energies and contractions release from my balls. I hear my mother cooking in the kitchen. I am still sweating, more now. I am thinking about opening the door to the balcony. I am getting out of the chair to do that.

Sitting is happening. Looking at a screen is happening. Sounds from outside are happening as cars pass by. A smell of sweat happened. A feeling of sweat on the forehead happened. A thought ”Am I doing this right” came, and then there was a looking at the blog to re-check. Breathing. More breathing. Spine adjusting itself. Energy moving up spine towards head.Thought ”energies are releasing” came. Thought ”Where do thoughts come from” came, then more thoughts. Silence is happening. Third eye is opening. Recognition that without ”I” everything is smoother. Sigh and sadness. Relaxation of the solar plexus. Thought ”I am awake”. Next thought ”No I”. Thought ”End”. Some slight fear of doing wrong. More chest relaxations. Peaceful. Enough.

Slight disgust at the word "I" happened.

[Ilona]

You are doing great.

The source does not want to be identified, the leak does not want to be plugged. Like the Wizard of Oz, hiding behind a curtain and creating illusions, not wanting to be found out, because that destroys the illusion.

You say that illusion can get destroyed. Let's see. How does one destroy illusion? What gets destroyed?
Imagine something, then destroy it. Describe what happens.

[Stoneburg]

You are doing great.

The source does not want to be identified, the leak does not want to be plugged. Like the Wizard of Oz, hiding behind a curtain and creating illusions, not wanting to be found out, because that destroys the illusion.

You say that illusion can get destroyed. Let's see. How does one destroy illusion? What gets destroyed?
Imagine something, then destroy it. Describe what happens.

I imagine a glass, then I imagine it being destroyed. There was no glass before the imagination, and no glass after, so the process seems quite meaningless. And illusion can't be destroyed because it doesn't exist, it would just be another illusion. An image of a glass being replaced by an image of a destroyed glass.

I'm never going to "get it" because there is no me to get it. Just contractions and crap leaving the body. Thank you body.

[Ilona]

Yep, nothing happens, no one dies. Just beliefs drop.

Do you notice anything different in everyday life?


Let's go back to the thoughts and where they come from. You are right saying that no one questions that, so let's question. In your experience, what is behind thoughts? Where do they go?

[Stoneburg]

Yep, nothing happens, no one dies. Just beliefs drop.

Do you notice anything different in everyday life?

Woke up this morning and the amount of thoughts was noticeably less. The words don't seem to stick to anything much either. Then there was this "click" moment when fear of death suddenly disappeared, like a roll up curtain rolling up in itself. It just happened suddenly, and then there was this recognition that the "me" that was afraid to die doesn't exist. Nothing dies, just life life-ing.

Body is more and more relaxed and releasing more tension every day. Everything seems slightly more relaxed and peaceful, and the sense that everything is on "automatic" grows stronger at the same time. Separation from the environment is becoming less clear but is still there, no unity experiences.

There's a bit of clinging to awareness itself and some sense of control there, but that is going away too, like everything else.

Let's go back to the thoughts and where they come from. You are right saying that no one questions that, so let's question. In your experience, what is behind thoughts? Where do they go?

In my experience fear is behind thoughts, the fear of no-thoughts. The fear is protecting the idea of a thinker, and is/was located in the back of the head. Not needed and being released. Everything is based on fear, it's just like layer upon layer upon layer, and it never protects anything real, only ideas (lies). Still it seems as if there has to be a process of it letting go, some time seems to be needed.

Where do they go? Worst case they are expressed, meaning people vomit them out so that they can infect others, and that seems to be one way they spread. Best case people shut up and the thoughts simply go *poof* and disappear. They're kind of like airborne viruses.

[Ilona]

Where do they go? Worst case they are expressed, meaning people vomit them out so that they can infect others, and that seems to be one way they spread. Best case people shut up and the thoughts simply go *poof* and disappear. They're kind of like airborne viruses.

Ha hahahaa, this made me laugh out loud.


You say no unity experiences. What is not a unity experience? I mean, where is the sensation of being separate? Find it, which sensation is clearly it? (you know, you can identify sensations like anger, joy, sadness, that kind of thing) the sense of separatedness is another sensation appearing in unified field. It's not the I that experiences, it's the experience of the I. It's not the body that feels sensations, it's the sensation called body. Awareness is another word for experience. Same stuff, different label, makes it all sound separate.

Write more about control. Free will, responsibility. How all this looks from where you stand?


Sending love

[Stoneburg]

You say no unity experiences. What is not a unity experience? I mean, where is the sensation of being separate? Find it, which sensation is clearly it? (you know, you can identify sensations like anger, joy, sadness, that kind of thing) the sense of separatedness is another sensation appearing in unified field.

The sensation of being separate is perhaps better described as a resistance or slight fear vibration in the body. It’s simply a slight resistance to whatever is happening, and maybe an unconscious belief that ”I” am the body. This resistance is growing less and less every day, though it comes and goes a bit. Of course it is true that all experiences happen in the same unified field so in effect the non-unity experience must be an illusion.

Write more about control. Free will, responsibility. How all this looks from where you stand?

Free will is an obvious joke, and seems to be the source of this neurosis called a self, since it creates the illusion that control is possible. Of course free will is absurd because it assumes a separate agent that can somehow magically make choices or decisions without being part of the whole interdependent process of the universe. It’s a social illusion that is used mainly to create emotions such as guilt and performance anxiety, I would guess. It’s a very stressful idea.

Same goes for responsibility obviously. Who is supposed to be responsible for what? From a social perspective this body is responsible for its actions, so if this body goes out and rapes someone or steals something, the body will be ”punished” but the general idea of responsibility assumes there is a little self/controller sitting inside the body vehicle driving it around. This is of course greeted first by the mind as ”Yay! I’m not responsible for anything, I can do whatever I want!” then it realizes it can’t do anything and never could. It also gives the slightly more sobering insight that nobody else is responsible for anything, so it’s pointless being angry at anyone or blaming them for anything. Shit just happens.

Another interesting thing from this perspective is how the body at first seemed to be ”liberating” itself from the mind. Over the last few months it’s become more and more clear that the body is doing whatever it wants, and the mind is just continually trying to predict what is happening so that it can claim ownership of the deeds. In reality, the body does what it does and the mind is just trying to keep up. At first it was viewed very much as a combat between the two, but in hindsight it appears as there was never any real fight, the body has always been in control and has basically just been playing with the mind. How infuriating.

There’s still some confusion about the role of thoughts. They seem quite pointless and just an obstruction (if anything) to healing and following the flow. The fact that they are basically beamed into peoples heads is also a bit weird, to say the least, and something that liberated beings should perhaps make bigger fuss about. Then again, if the thoughts don’t actually do anything… who cares?

[Ilona]

Have a look if thoughts are driving body.
Sit on a sofa and make a hand move by thought. Make body go to the kitchen and get water.

Observe, as it happens, what comes first, an impulse, thought or action?
Are they independent or arise dependently on each other?

Non unity experience is an illusion, yes. It's only a thought that assumes unity or not. Experience is not divided..

Sending love.

[Stoneburg]

Have a look if thoughts are driving body.
Sit on a sofa and make a hand move by thought. Make body go to the kitchen and get water.

Observe, as it happens, what comes first, an impulse, thought or action?
Are they independent or arise dependently on each other?

Non unity experience is an illusion, yes. It's only a thought that assumes unity or not. Experience is not divided..

Sending love.

It is fairly obvious that the thoughts do not move the body. The impulse/action comes first and then the thought, if any. It does indeed seem like thoughts may be completely disconnected from reality with no control whatsoever. Yeah.. that's interesting. Thoughts seem to be completely irrelevant and have no use.

[Ilona]

Can you say with a big fat YES, it's clear, i, the separate self is a mind created illusion?
if so, can i ask you the so called final questions?

[Stoneburg]

Can you say with a big fat YES, it's clear, i, the separate self is a mind created illusion?
if so, can i ask you the so called final questions?

I'm not sure the mind created it, but it does seem to sustain and experience it, so Yes.

Shoot.

[Ilona]

Fair comment. Ok, let's finish this and have you join the groups.


1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Can you talk about decision, intention, free will, choice and control? What makes things happen? How does it work? Give examples from experience.

6) Anything to add?

Please answer in full, when ready.

Much love.

[Stoneburg]

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

No there is no ”real” separate entity that could be called a self, only illusions and ideas, based on thoughts and (mainly) fear.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

It probably starts when the body is very young. At the core seems to be a contraction in the anus, coupled with a sense of fear and urge to control. This would stem from potty training where the body/mind is ”shamed” for releasing feces, causing a separation between the body and the excrement, as well as the very strong instinct that if it doesn’t contract the anus as requested the ”me” will not be loved (i.e. die). Then there’s the tool of language that gets forced on the system, and which builds and strengthens the whole illusion of a separate self that is supposed to maneuver in and manipulate the world. That’s how it seems to have begun in ”my” case at least.

Now I see the self as a set of lies and almost a form of artificial intelligence. It’s like a virus in the mind really, trying above all to survive by using all kinds of strategies. At the root of it is the core concept of ”me” and then the questions ”why” and ”who”. It seems to fill absolutely zero healthy functions and acts completely like a parasite. The only real effect or function of it seems to be to obscure reality by creating a labeling and interpreting filter, basically creating a false reality or illusion for the mind to dwell in. Yeah… it’s basically a virtual parasite that takes over the mind and convinces the mind that it is it. Incredibly weird.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

The main thing is that a LOT of fears that were hiding in the body system have been allowed to leave, and blocks around the body have been removed and are still being removed. It feels as if the ”mind” is in the process of unravelling itself and that the body is rejecting an infection. The experience changes a lot, sometimes it is quite humorous, other times there is more fear, and some times there’s love and pleasantness. Most of the time it is not ”taken personally” which allows for the experiences to flow more naturally, but sometimes there is an identification with the ”me-process” happening.

On an intellectual level ”I” already knew all this and there have been experiences without the presence of a self before, but it feels more solidified now and most importantly the sense or idea of having to ”do” something about has almost fallen away completely. Most of the time the sense or experience is simply that the body is doing everything, and that the body is being ”run” by the universe.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

I think the book Gateless Gatecrashers was the main thing, but there hasn’t really been one single ”Aha!” moment, more like a progression of experiences and insights that have unraveled the illusion (which is still ongoing). The insight that ”I” doesn’t even control awareness was probably one of the main things.

5) Can you talk about decision, intention, free will, choice and control? What makes things happen? How does it work? Give examples from experience.

I don’t know what a decision would be. There are sometimes thoughts pretending to make decisions, but things just happen as a result of everything else happening. It’s impossible to pinpoint a cause for anything since everything is the cause of everything else. Free will is an illusion, and an unhealthy one at that, sort of the root of the problem. Control is also illusory. Basically all these concepts make no sense whatsoever when the ”agent” of self is seen as illusion.

What makes things happen? The big bang made things happen and it is still going on. It’s energies and stuff playing with itself causing more and more interesting patterns. I like the word God and would probably say that God makes everything happen, but there is no separate everything, it’s all just one big God.

The body is integrated in this universe and seems to move around based on impulses that are either reactions to ”outside” phenomena like a sound or inside phenomena like hunger, a full bladder or what not. Talking and typing also happens by itself without the need for a separate self or thoughts to happen. The experience is ongoing, and only the focus of attention shifts. Sometimes the attention is on the thoughts or story that is happening, sometimes it is in the body or on something in the ”outside” world, usually it’s divided between these three but with a focus on the ”inside”. Thoughts still get a lot of attention and there are stories going on and some silly stuff but it’s seen more like a process of the mind coming to peace and the iVirus leaving the system.

6) Anything to add?

Yeah. This Direct Pointing method is by far the most potent one I’ve come across, and makes pretty much all the other ”spiritual methods” look like over complicated and ineffectual bullshit. This is like the anti-dote to the iVirus and needs to be spread. Hopefully that is what this body/mind system will be doing. Thank ”you” (meaning the universe as acting out through Ilona) for inventing or developing it. It’s cool. Enlightenment is fucking easy ;)

[Ilona]

Thank you for answers! Looks that I don't have anything else to ask in regards of the no self thingy. Of course, it's a beginning of clearing bs, not the end point. Lots of ideas to examine, all that is left will show up to be cleared..
Welcome home. :)
I will send you a PM and invite you to aftercare group.

Mich love