S. Star's Inroduction

[sstar01]

sstar01 wrote:There obviously then is some level where I still see the self because using "I" can at times confuse me. Where I am confused is because often the experience of no "I" is the reality and using the term seems to pull me out of that reality (which again I know is not the case). I feel at times like I am being jerked back and forth between the two. It is unsettling.


I appreciate your honesty here. Let's unpack this together:

- Please describe what you mean by "I."

For lack of a better term, and what it is referred to in Headlessness, "the little one". The one that we are conditioned to believe is us. As I talk about the "I" it seems further and further away from what I experience on a daily basis. The "I" feels like it is that last dream you have in the morning; the one that you want to remember to tell someone about and you just can't hold onto it long enough to tell them. It feels like it is fading away. Very interesting and odd sensation. There is something that is really trying to grasp at it, to not let it slip away completely.

It sounds like the no "I" reality and the "I" reality are experienced differently, but are they really two separate things? Or, is it all part of experience? Can YOU make the no "I" reality happen?

No there is only One "thing." It is the capacity we've talked about. It is always "going on in the background." It is just if it is remembered or not. No I don't believe it is all part of experience (this may be where words are getting in the way again). Experiences come and experiences go this capacity is never changing. No-thing effects it. It is an unchanging field which contains all experience.

No, I cannot make the no "I" happen. All I can do is just look for myself and it is always there. I see and remember when I look who is behind experiences and I find nothing, or remind myself I cannot see my face, or ask any number of other questions and wait for the answer (similar to the questions you have asked me). At other times I do nothing at all and it just appears and I am reminded. As you ask me these questions, again, the YOU and the "I" are becoming fainter and harder to remember.

- What if you were to stay in the "I" reality?

I truly don't know. To say would be pure speculation, because it has not happened yet. With this fading sensation of the "I," I guess I will be able to find the answer to that question sooner or later, from direct experience.

This is an example of what I have been discussing: Just now when I answered the question you posed I wanted to write "…PERSONAL experience" instead of "…direct experience." In that moment I felt I was totally identified with the "I," right back in the body and all.

- It is unsettling to who?

When asked directly like this the "I" pops right back in. I want to answer, "unsettling to me."

Self is experienced as a process instead of a thing - a process of self-identification. Whenever I identify with a subject in experience, there's bound to be struggle or contraction.

OK, this is good. I still do not understand but at least it gives me something to contemplate…
What is this process you refer to? You're talking to a "newbie" with this. What do you mean by "Whenever I identify with a subject in experience, there's bound to be struggle or contraction?" Could you break this down for me a bit more? Sorry to be so thick here but I do not have the background that some have, of years of meditation study and practice. These concepts and terms are not familiar to me.

One can see that there is no "I" or "me" and know on an experiential basis that "Kevalino" is just a label and fabricated by the mind. However, habitual tendencies and conditioning don't just disappear. They came about through causes and conditions, and cease when those causes and conditions that created them change or cease. It's similar to how a sunflower might naturally turn towards the sun. It stops turning when the sun disappears. In the absence of self-identification, habitual tendencies are bound to change, just like the sunflower.

Nice analogy. Yes, habitual tendencies come through causes. There are reasons. Maybe this fading experience of the "I" is the result of causes and conditions changing.

I mentioned in an earlier post that this "I got it! I lost it! I got it! I lost it!" phase is not uncommon after seeing through self. The insight/seeing may be accompanied by an experience/sensation, but that experience is not the seeing itself. However, "it" can be mistaken for this, so one can continue to chase after the experience.

Yes, again I will refer to Headlessness (sorry but it is my only reference point) that experiences come and go but this "Seeing" is ever there, unchanging spaciousness/capacity.

I found it interesting how this last section started..."A few more thoughts."

What is "I have obviously experienced...," "I truly believe...," and "why do I keep getting lost?" What exactly is lost and who is losing "it" in direct experience?

You do know I will keep slipping up here, for how long I cannot say. I give myself permission (I know, I know, there is no one to give anyone permission). It's conditioning. Your questions help me to remember to look for the "I.

To answer your question: As the "I," the memory of seeing feels lost and no there is no one to be found who is losing it. When I look and answer your question the response is nonsensical. :o)

[Kevalino]

Hello,

There is something that is really trying to grasp at it, to not let it slip away completely.

What is this "something?"

No, I cannot make the no "I" happen. All I can do is just look for myself and it is always there.

Ok, good.

In that moment I felt I was totally identified with the "I," right back in the body and all.

You asked for more clarification around selfing as a process. This is a good example of it. Here, you identified with the subject ("I"), and experienced sensations described as coming back to the body.

Subject is the experiencer/doer/seer/hearer, but in reality, there is no subject. Subject is just made up of labels, thoughts, memories, concepts, etc. However, when we still believe there is actually someone (a subject) in control and making everything happen, struggle inevitably ensues because there is an entity to protect, defend and cherish.

It might be best to hold this lightly for now. Just look at the process of struggle and who is struggling in direct experience. How does struggle happen?

It is unsettling to who?

When asked directly like this the "I" pops right back in. I want to answer, "unsettling to me."

Is this "I" popping back in a problem?

Yes, again I will refer to Headlessness (sorry but it is my only reference point) that experiences come and go but this "Seeing" is ever there, unchanging spaciousness/capacity.

Yes, experiences come and go.

To answer your question: As the "I," the memory of seeing feels lost and no there is no one to be found who is losing it. When I look and answer your question the response is nonsensical. :o)

Lovely :)

[sstar01]

sstar01 wrote:There is something that is really trying to grasp at it, to not let it slip away completely.


What is this "something?"

Stubbornness maybe. It is the habit of considering myself a thing. I think what would be helpful would be to just notice when the experiences are expansive and when they are contracted. What the circumstances are where each occurs and if there is a pattern to them.

It might be best to hold this lightly for now. Just look at the process of struggle and who is struggling in direct experience. How does struggle happen?

I will sit with this for awhile and see what comes up. In this moment, when you ask the question "who is struggling?" in thought I find only an amorphous blob for an answer (really the picture of a gray hole appears). The feeling that comes up is a relaxed sensation and emotionally a feeling of who cares "who" it is. This feels much better than the mental image of the body or the face of the person others see me as popping up as a mental image. When you ask how the struggle happens I am not certain. This is what I will need to sit with. Do you have examples of this "how?" Maybe that would spark some ideas.

Kevalino wrote: It is unsettling to who?
sstar01 wrote:When asked directly like this the "I" pops right back in. I want to answer, "unsettling to me." Is this "I" popping back in a problem?

Sometimes yes and sometimes no. Ultimately it must be if the goal is to not live from it.


I would like to take the weekend as a break. I have been very committed and working hard, and as you mentioned it might be good to take this lightly. Sometimes it does me well to step back and not process for a bit to let things settle and work themselves out and see what comes up. If I overwork, greater confusion can be the result. I have a feeling that I have some deeper insights percolating under the surface and I would like to let them bubble forth and manifest. How about you respond to this post as usual and I will answer on Monday. Does this work for you?

I ran across this quote somewhere and I found it lovely if not wholly accurate:

“Clothe thyself with the garment of nothingness and drink from the cup of self-annihilation. Cover thy breast with nothingness, and draw over thy head the robe of non-existence. Set thy foot in the stirrup of complete renunciation and, looking straight before thee, ride the steed of not-being to the place where nothing is.” - Attar

[Kevalino]

Hello,

That sounds like a good plan to take the weekend off. Trust your intuition! Thank you for the quote :)

I came across this post today that is relevant to what we have been discussing. I think it may be helpful now.

http://markedeternal.blogspot.com/2013/ ... r.html?m=0

Oh, and one last comment...when I asked if it is a problem that you feel unsettled, your response was it must be a problem if the goal is to live without it. Look again (don't think) after you read the above! Is it really a problem and is there really a goal? Or, are they just labels and thoughts that create suffering? For whom is it a "problem," and for whom is there a "goal?"

Kevalino

[sstar01]

I enjoyed the break and think it was necessary. I also enjoyed the post you sent. The post was thought provoking. Below is a lot of stream of consciousness and questions that came up from my time away and the post reading.

I came across this post today that is relevant to what we have been discussing. I think it may be helpful now.

Over the past few days I have been very aware of experiences and how there is no one controlling them. However, there is still a lot of confusion coming up. Thoughts intrude on experiences and argue with them or create stories about them. One big one is, "what does anything matter if there is no one?" Another is, "Let this whole thing just play out (life) and be done with it." Why not just vegetate on the couch? There is no one for it to matter to or for. Depressing feelings come up with both of those thoughts.

With regard to the blog and there being an experiencer, thinker, etc. When I try to locate one, the mental picture that pops in is the infamous amorphous blob (I've mentioned it before). And while it is definitely not a thing it is still something (it is not "no-thing" although when I "look" with the reference of Headlessness I can experience the no-thingness). I can see that this is the mind trying to make sense of it because that is the "mind's" job. The feelings that come up with this picture are a sense of emptiness and confusion. And yes, I will let that emptiness and confusion just be there, if not completely OK.

Another thing from the blog post you sent that adds to my confusion is the statement, " And most of all be kind to yourself. The love you seek is your own love to yourself." It is a bit crazy making that they are saying "be kind to yourself" and "The love you seek is your own love to yourself," when throughout the entire post they are saying there is no "you" "yourself" to be kind to or love. Which is it? Is there a you and yourself or is there not? And if there is not, it circuitously, as in a feedback loop, takes me back up to the first paragraph I wrote… Why does any of this matter, this thing called "life?"

Also, if love is real but there is no one there to experience it what does it matter?

Oh, and one last comment...when I asked if it is a problem that you feel unsettled, your response was it must be a problem if the goal is to live without it. Look again (don't think) after you read the above! Is it really a problem and is there really a goal? Or, are they just labels and thoughts that create suffering? For whom is it a "problem," and for whom is there a "goal?"

Why would I be doing this (or more accurately would this be happening) if there were no goal? Why would I put myself through this if there wasn't a hope for some outcome; it is certainly no joyride? I've got plenty of other things that I can think of that would be much more fun than this. So what is the prime motivation here? Is this just creative evolution at work? Something that "has" to happen, that there is no stopping? It almost feels that way. That at this point there is a drive that couldn't be stopped even if I wanted to. Or could this be just an expression of an addictive pattern of inquiry? This brain has always had a deeply curious intellect.

Also, I see where the resistance is becoming resigned by saying "OK fine, there is no one" but it feels like another game. As with my hopeless comments above, it throws in depression to create fear to get me to abandon the inquisition. Does this make sense?

[sstar01]

In my first paragraph: It feels like all this must matter to someone, somewhere, somehow. And if there is no point at all, sadness comes up big time.

[Kevalino]

Hello,

Glad to hear you enjoyed the break and the post from Ilona. I also appreciate your honest responses about how you’re feeling.

Thoughts intrude on experiences and argue with them or create stories about them. One big one is, "what does anything matter if there is no one?" Another is, "Let this whole thing just play out (life) and be done with it." Why not just vegetate on the couch? There is no one for it to matter to or for. Depressing feelings come up with both of those thoughts.

In direct experience, is this anything more than thoughts and sensations?

Which is it? Is there a you and yourself or is there not? And if there is not, it circuitously, as in a feedback loop, takes me back up to the first paragraph I wrote… Why does any of this matter, this thing called "life?"

Falling into nihilism is not uncommon. If things are not absolutely real, then they have to be absolutely unreal. Notice the urge to want or need things to be black and white. This is what the dualistic mind does. A middle path is to be open to the possibility that maybe neither extreme is correct, and to address the underlying fear of uncertainty that insisting on black and white temporarily relieves.

It almost feels that way. That at this point there is a drive that couldn't be stopped even if I wanted to. Or could this be just an expression of an addictive pattern of inquiry?

This is a great opportunity to explore that drive in direct experience. Is the drive just drive and all the other stuff thoughts?

And if there is no point at all, sadness comes up big time.

It might be helpful to try some of the direct approaches in that post from Ilona.

Also, I see where the resistance is becoming resigned by saying "OK fine, there is no one" but it feels like another game. As with my hopeless comments above, it throws in depression to create fear to get me to abandon the inquisition. Does this make sense?

Yes, it makes sense. It’s important to stay where you are rather than trying to jump to where you think you should be. At any time, if you feel like abandoning the inquiry, or taking a break and coming back to it in the future, I’d trust that intuition. It seems to have benefited you so far!

Kevalino

[sstar01]

In direct experience, is this anything more than thoughts and sensations?

No, nothing.

If things are not absolutely real, then they have to be absolutely unreal. Notice the urge to want or need things to be black and white. This is what the dualistic mind does. A middle path is to be open to the possibility that maybe neither extreme is correct, and to address the underlying fear of uncertainty that insisting on black and white temporarily relieves.

OK, now I am super confused. The post noted that all we really want is our own love of ourselves. But I thought that there was no one here to love or be loved, only feelings of love to come up and be experienced. Is that not correct? If so, I am not sure what is meant by "we" and "our own selves".

What do you mean by a middle path or way? Which extremes are you talking about when you note that maybe neither extreme is correct? I do not understand at all what you mean by: " maybe neither extreme is correct, and to address the underlying fear of uncertainty that insisting on black and white temporarily relieves." You have been staunchly telling me the "I" does not exist now you are saying that maybe it does? Please explain in greater detail.

This is a great opportunity to explore that drive in direct experience. Is the drive just drive and all the other stuff thoughts?

The drive is an insistent feeling (a gut level instinct of some sort) and when the thought to stop or give up comes up, the thought "No" is loud and clear.

It might be helpful to try some of the direct approaches in that post from Ilona.

I will give it a read again and try them.

It’s important to stay where you are rather than trying to jump to where you think you should be.

In other words, I should sit with this until it becomes clear or passes?

At any time, if you feel like abandoning the inquiry, or taking a break and coming back to it in the future, I’d trust that intuition. It seems to have benefited you so far

Thanks for the validation to trust my own instincts. Yes, my intuition supports me very well. I have told the story, during Headless Hangouts with friends from around the world, that there is something (or no-thing as it were) that pops thoughts into consciousness that have "saved my bacon" so many times. They are both small and big things that just pop in at the exact correct moment they are needed. These are things that I should in no way remember and yet they come to me out of the blue, from the deepest darkest recesses of the brain, at the perfect moment—things that I have forgotten for months, maybe even years, and need to be reminded of right then. If they hadn't come to mind I would have suffered some small or large consequence as a result. It is pretty amazing. I am always very surprised when this happens. I don't know if others have similar experiences, but yes my instincts or intuition are deeply rooted, somewhere, and they serve me well. It is super clear that no "I" is either thinking or remembering these things. These events just happen and the timing is impeccable.

As noted above I am still ready to continue...

[Kevalino]

Hello,

In direct experience, is this anything more than thoughts and sensations?

No, nothing.

Great.

But I thought that there was no one here to love or be loved, only feelings of love to come up and be experienced. Is that not correct? If so, I am not sure what is meant by "we" and "our own selves".

There is no one to love or be loved, and yet love happens. She is using those terms as conventional language.

What do you mean by a middle path or way? Which extremes are you talking about when you note that maybe neither extreme is correct? I do not understand at all what you mean by: " maybe neither extreme is correct, and to address the underlying fear of uncertainty that insisting on black and white temporarily relieves."

I was picking up on nihilistic views (e.g. nothing matters, why bother, etc) which are the opposite extreme from views based on things, including ourselves, as solid, fixed entities. Certainty makes us feel secure and confirms the "I," so when we see there is no "I," a common reaction is to conclude there is nothing and nothing matters. Instead of this black and white (this or that) reaction, the middle path is about staying with the discomfort of not knowing so that the both/and can emerge.

You have been staunchly telling me the "I" does not exist now you are saying that maybe it does?

No, I am not saying that "I" exists.

Let's put aside thinking and concepts now and go back to direct experience.

The drive is an insistent feeling (a gut level instinct of some sort) and when the thought to stop or give up comes up, the thought "No" is loud and clear.

So, it is nothing more than sensations and thoughts?

In other words, I should sit with this until it becomes clear or passes?

I meant dropping any expectations about what should be happening and just staying with current experience.

In direct experience as usual, let's explore the following questions:

- Have you been able to find a self that is the "experiencer?"
- Have you been able to find a self that is the "doer," or can control what happens?
- Have you been able to find a self that makes decisions?
- Have you been able to find a self that does the thinking?
- Is the "body" just another thought label for sensations (tactile and kinesthetic)?
- Is there a self "in here" that is separate from the world and others "out there?"
- Is there any doubt or confusion that in all these cases, the self is nothing other than a mental fabrication?

Kevalino

[Kevalino]

Hello,

My friend Smudge has a lot of experience with headlessness.I thought it might be helpful for you to work with her now. I have enjoyed working with you, and am interested in how to best support your inquiry. How does that sound to you? Kevalino

[sstar01]

Sure. Thank you for considering my best interests. I was coming to the same conclusion. I was going to respond to your latest post with the comment that, "No" I cannot find any of the things that you asked me to look for but my next question is, now what (not "so what" but rather where do we go from here)? I have been aware of my Headless nature for a year and a half now and the experience continues to deepen, although once you've seen the reality of being a no-thing that is the one constant that does not deepen or change--it is the "deepest" and the "changless". I believe that Headlessness says the exact same thing as LU and is a direct opportunity to experience this in a nonverbal way. After all this is ultimately a non-verbal non-symbolic experience. As hard as we try, no language/symbols can describe it.

I would be very happy to work with her. Please place me in contact with her.

Thank you Kevalino for your help and patience. Your support has been most appreciated and valued.

[Kevalino]

That all sounds good. Glad to connect the both of you. She will reach out to you and continue the dialogue. Take care, Kevalino

[smudge]

Hi Star,

Nice to be working with you, you sound pretty cooked already from here. I also discovered the truth of this fascinating paradox of everything arising and dancing through /in emptiness through headlessness. I read back through the thread a resonate deeply with the descriptions you share, the amazement and the paradox. I have cut some relevant quotes and hope we can start clarifying from there. I do hope that is OK.
Just to say I find headlessness and LU complement each other, headlessness emphasises the fullness and LU maybe emphasises the emptiness and both are true and not true. I found LU pointed at the subtle identification left with I am everything, which of course isn't true, its just thought putting a sticky label onto everything. I don't usually share so much when guiding about 'me' but felt it may be helpful, I hope so:


Anyway...down to business:

This entire dialog and process generates feelings of frustration. And yes, in this moment I am confusing these feelings with a self. :o)

Nice noticing, just sensation (frustration) and thought doing a dance and SEEMING like an I.

From experience this Consciousness contains everything and at once permeates everything, is at once everything and nothing
What I have experienced is a sensation of sentience (this is the only word I have for the experience). It is an alive sensation, a priori. It is a total energetic connection sensation with all that is (Again, the best words I have to describe the indescribable).

Beautiful!

I associate myself as that spaciousness.

Sounds like thought sticking an I on spaciousness but then you say...

but I do know the difference. When I say "I am everything" it is just a way to give language to the experience—there is no I in it.

Just checking is this clear in DE, that spaciousness is spaciousness despite if a though adds an I or not?

So why do I keep getting lost the "I"? Is it just the flow of yin/yang, hot/cold, in/out…..?

Look and see the ingredients in this, Its another SEEMS like, but in DE art there just thought and sensation again...this is the paradox isn't it, its is seen to be absent of a self AND YET the thought feeling dance make it SEEM LIKE still, even after seeing has happened, how bizarre :-) This is all post gate stuff..

There is something that is really trying to grasp at it, to not let it slip away completely.

SO: What are the ingredient here (DE) making it SEEM LIKE and I is resisting?

Over the past few days I have been very aware of experiences and how there is no one controlling them. However, there is still a lot of confusion coming up. Thoughts intrude on experiences and argue with them or create stories about them. One big one is, "what does anything matter if there is no one?" Another is, "Let this whole thing just play out (life) and be done with it." Why not just vegetate on the couch? There is no one for it to matter to or for. Depressing feelings come up with both of those thoughts.

Same question again please

There is no "I" in a body, there is no "I" as personality

Nice and clear

Sensations and movement arise in and out of the single field (again trying to put words to the nameless).

Lovely, clear

There is just walking happening.

Yep

"Who" might be doing all of this—Maybe something/someone maybe nothing/no one.
I am certain that there is no body or person making decisions.

Cool, sounds like its seen that there is mystery still..maybe more so even..

If things are just happening where does that leave personal responsibility?

Ingredients in this sentence are? Its not DE is it...instead describe the ingredients leading to a seems like

Smoking just stopped.

Yes!

If I become aware of my "faceless/headless nature" then I become capacity for the talking and listening to arise. If on the other hand, I am self-aware i.e., constricted, my experience is that talking and listening take place in the body.I can see that there is no "thought based" character—When I look (ask if it is there) it does not exist. There is a thing, a physical form (body) that is going through motions and having experiences. However, I often am not looking and get into the 'movie' until the thought pops in "ah, it is just the thing going through the motions."

Keep noticing what is happening when it SEEMS LIKE a self is back.

Look forward to your responses, sounding great
Love Smudge x

[sstar01]

Hi Smudge~
Very nice to "meet" you. I love your enthusiasm. This should be fun, as well as profound. Your approach sounds great. I am glad you cut some quotes to review. You may have read that I don't have a truck-load of experiences from which I am dredging up dogma or wisdom. My path is fairly short. I dabble in meditation but follow no particular "school" and have been exposed to The Headless Way for the past year and a half. I engage in Headless Hangouts several times per week (If you might be interested, you can email Richard and he can put you on the list to participate). That is pretty much it.

I don't usually share so much when guiding about 'me' but felt it may be helpful, I hope so:

Please do share, it helps to learn of your experiences also.

Just to say I find headlessness and LU complement each other, headlessness emphasises the fullness and LU maybe emphasises the emptiness and both are true and not true.

From my experiences of Headlessness I find it the emptiness as capacity, full of the Universe.

I found LU pointed at the subtle identification left with I am everything, which of course isn't true, its just thought putting a sticky label onto everything.

Yes, this is what I am wanting to explore because I feel the sensation of being everything. Of being the Capacity. Sometimes this identification is more subtle than others. Sometimes the sense of self is screaming loud. Most times it is not a label of self but is a visceral sensation existing as huge boundless capacity. The mind just pops in to put the label of an I to make sense of it, to attach it to something.

We only have our sensory organs (and maybe a sixth sense) to perceive this "energy" and language to describe it. There are times when I feel the "I" very strongly and others when I do not. I believe that this is the nature of the human animal our brains are wired to create a separate self to label. I can know with every fiber of my being that "I" does not exist but I often act as if it does. We talk about the "as if world" and the "actual world" where the "as if" is us acting like there is a person here.

Just checking is this clear in DE, that spaciousness is spaciousness despite if a though adds an I or not?

This is the "razor's edge." I want to say yes this is perfectly clear but ifyness and fuzziness can come up. That is probably why I have contradicted myself on this topic. Can I say for now that I have a deep knowing and experience that spaciousness is spaciousness but at times I lose that experience. I just allow this to come up and it fades more and more.

Look and see the ingredients in this, Its another SEEMS like, but in DE art there just thought and sensation again...this is the paradox isn't it, its is seen to be absent of a self AND YET the thought feeling dance make it SEEM LIKE still, even after seeing has happened, how bizarre :-) This is all post gate stuff..

When I ask myself the question over and over if there is anyone there nothing can be found. And as you say "AND YET." I am getting to the point where I am saying it just has to be OK that this identification comes up at times. If it wasn't meant to, it wouldn't happen. True?

SO: What are the ingredient here (DE) making it SEEM LIKE and I is resisting?

I am not quite sure I understand to what you are referring to here. The word "ingredients" isn't familiar to me. Can you please clarify?

Star: "Who" might be doing all of this—Maybe something/someone maybe nothing/no one.
I am certain that there is no body or person making decisions.

Cool, sounds like its seen that there is mystery still..maybe more so even..

Thanks for giving me the option of a mystery in play. I was getting the strong message from earlier conversations/posts that that wasn't even a possibility. I am only willing to say what I can know from direct experience, not what the potential possibilities are. There are myriad hypotheses which are currently under scientific rigor about the functioning of all of this and some are pretty bizarre, i.e. this is nothing more than a video game set into motion and being controlled by something (Watch Morgan Freeman on the Through the Wormhole series). It is all a huge mystery and paradox and yes it gets bigger all the time.

However, I don't feel a division between the "everything" and a self. Does this make sense? Again, I know there is no person controlling everything but there is that subtle oneness of connection to Capacity. Below is a quote that summarizes it much more clearly than I can:

"When one seeks one's mind in its true state, it is found to be quite intelligible, although invisible. In this true state, mind is naked, immaculate; not made of anything, being of the Voidness; clear, vacuous, without duality, transparent; timeless, uncompounded, unimpeded, colourless; not realizable as a separate thing, but as the unity of all things, yet not composed of them; one of taste, and transcendent over differentiation" (Padma Sambhava, "The Seeing of Reality" P. 211)

Star: If things are just happening where does that leave personal responsibility?

Ingredients in this sentence are? Its not DE is it...instead describe the ingredients leading to a seems like

Again, I am not quite sure I get what is meant when you say "ingredients". Maybe an example would help here.

Star: If I become aware of my "faceless/headless nature" then I become capacity for the talking and listening to arise. If on the other hand, I am self-aware i.e., constricted, my experience is that talking and listening take place in the body.I can see that there is no "thought based" character—When I look (ask if it is there) it does not exist. There is a thing, a physical form (body) that is going through motions and having experiences. However, I often am not looking and get into the 'movie' until the thought pops in "ah, it is just the thing going through the motions."

Keep noticing what is happening when it SEEMS LIKE a self is back.

Oh, that was good... making SEEMS LIKE capital letters. Something clicked there--I have a big GOT IT on that. I will work at being conscious of when it SEEMS LIKE :o) the "I" pops in. I will just look to see what specifically, if anything, might be going on prior to that happening. I have a sense that it most likely happens during times of stress.

Thanks!!

[smudge]

Hey Star,

Feeling a nice connection

I dabble in meditation but follow no particular "school" and have been exposed to The Headless Way for the past year and a half. I engage in Headless Hangouts several times per week (If you might be interested, you can email Richard and he can put you on the list to participate). That is pretty much it.

I think we'll have more cool chats after this dialogue..we have a lot in common..for now, lets keep the focus on DE and only DE though so this is crystal clear. x

Yes, this is what I am wanting to explore because I feel the sensation of being everything. Of being the Capacity. Sometimes this identification is more subtle than others. Sometimes the sense of self is screaming loud. Most times it is not a label of self but is a visceral sensation existing as huge boundless capacity. The mind just pops in to put the label of an I to make sense of it, to attach it to something.

This is the working ground:The: AS IF

Can I say for now that I have a deep knowing and experience that spaciousness is spaciousness but at times I lose that experience.

Yes more on the identification with space/capacity/everything...Yes we have the place to look.

When I ask myself the question over and over if there is anyone there nothing can be found. And as you say "AND YET." I am getting to the point where I am saying it just has to be OK that this identification comes up at times. If it wasn't meant to, it wouldn't happen. True?

"ask myself' hmm (THOUGHT)...so one ingredient in everything is thought, this is one, right? Thought will never be a route to reality just to the movie about star..

I mean by ingredients that thoughts, feelings, forms, actions and awareness dance. The problem is some of these combinations make it SEEM LIKE there is a self, so lets look at these ingredients and see if in fact there is another ingredient called Star or not? Can these ingredients be found in DE?

Oh, that was good... making SEEMS LIKE capital letters. Something clicked there--I have a big GOT IT on that. I will work at being conscious of when it SEEMS LIKE :o) the "I" pops in. I will just look to see what specifically, if anything, might be going on prior to that happening. I have a sense that it most likely happens during times of stress.

Nice. Sounds like stress is a good place to look, Stress is thought and feeling/sensation dancing isn't it? So what is creating the ILLUSION of an I in DE, look next time stress happens, name the 'ingredients' and see whats found. We are not trying to get rid of or change anything, 'seems like' may well carry on, the question is, is it true...Santa was never true was he, even though he was once believed in...

Cool! xx