Here is a call for innercall :)

[Innercall]

What is that I that is referred to in your posts?

It is an unclear sense of center. That is that which connects all the parts together, that links the body sensations, the hearing, the thinking, the writing. It is the memory of the experiences linked together.

What is looking closely?

I can’t find it. It is just a focus on a specific area of experience (thinking or hearing for example) that is happening because of a thought about it. Like for the thinking and the hearing, there is the process of looking closely or focusing that just happens. There is no difference between looking closely, the looked at experience, and the looker. There is the judgment, feeling, thought process that follows the looking that seems to do the looking, but it is a reaction to the looking that already happened.

Is there a subject in action? Like I breathe, I walk, I snore, I eat, I think, I do?

Action is happening from a specific body. That body is always there and because it is always there, it seems like it is me and it seems it is the subject in action.
When breathing happens, it happens without a subject. The thought of I breath can come after. It is a kind of confirmation or reconstruction of my existence that is done by integrating and connecting the breathing to the whole package of memories and thoughts. It is the same with the other actions.
So there is no subject during an action, it just seems so after.

What is being noticed? What is already obvious?

There is a big intermingled knot of memories, thoughts, emotions and sensations that is always actualized and fed by all the experiences. Each new experience is integrated within that net and this moment of integration is a thought or judgment that confirms the I. That big knot of thoughts and memories is like a super-thought that is both subtle and complex that cannot be seen clearly because it contains too much superimposed information. Still, even if it is noticed, that knot still somehow feels like me. Mostly, the feelings, uncomfortable feelings, located in certain area of the body feel like me.
It is obvious that doing, thinking and hearing are happening by themselves without a subject. It is obvious that something is false in the whole portrait because there is a clash between the absence of subject and the feeling that there is a me.

[Ilona]

Ok, now look at the knot of memories and thoughts. Is there an actual knot anywhere to be found?

Focus on the feeling that is labeled knot.
Is it an I? A me?

Notice another thing- thoughts pass by not in knots, but in trains. One thought comes after another, but only one thought comes to aawareness at a time, if it's speedy and lots - it may get labelled as knot, but examine it deeper and wrote what you find.


And- there is no centre.
There never was a centre. All there is is experience happening now + experience of thinking about it.

If you had to point to a centre, where would your finger point to?
If there was a centre, wouldn't it be clear and obvious?
It's unclear, because mind is trying to recreate something that it imagines and believes as real based on memories.
Check if it's true. Ask the centre to reveal itself, literally. See what happens.



Sending love.

[Innercall]

Ok, now look at the knot of memories and thoughts. Is there an actual knot anywhere to be found?

No there isn’t, it is more a kind of feeling.

Focus on the feeling that is labeled knot. Is it an I? A me?

No, it doesn’t feel like a me.

Notice another thing- thoughts pass by not in knots, but in trains. One thought comes after another, but only one thought comes to awareness at a time, if it's speedy and lots - it may get labelled as knot, but examine it deeper and wrote what you find.

That looks right. Thoughts appear and disappear very quickly. Most of the thoughts don’t have time to become precise and are replaced by others while they are still only very subtle, not articulated thoughts. It is not clear but it seems that a lot of thoughts in the train are “I thoughts” or “me thoughts”, linking the previous thought or the experience to the thought. For example, I just add this itch sensation on a part of my skin, so there is this sensation then it is followed by a thought that is “it itches me”.

If you had to point to a centre, where would your finger point to?

It would point near the heart, just a little on the right side of the middle of the chest.

If there was a centre, wouldn't it be clear and obvious?

I must admit it isn’t clear and obvious.

Check if it's true. Ask the centre to reveal itself, literally. See what happens.

When I ask this question, an energetic sensation build up in the chest, a kind of tension attracts everything inside the body, mostly on the right side, to a spot inside the upper right part of the chest that becomes a little painful. This is accompanied with uncomfortable feelings, a kind of fear and sadness. Then, after a while it causes an uncontrollable shiver or shaking that releases that build-up of energy. This exercise leaves me with a mild feeling of depression and tiredness.

Sending love.

Thank you

[Ilona]

Glets go a bit further here.
If you go back to that feeling in the chest, and observe it even closer.
Is it a real centre or is it a sensation in the body, raw feeling + label 'center'.
Look behind that feeling. What is there?

[Innercall]

When I look at it, it is a feeling that responds to the label “center”. But that feeling is not precise it moves and changes in intensity.
Behind this sensation is a screaming and afraid sense of self that yells “I exist!!!” , “you’ve got the right to exist!!!” . It really isn’t clear and constant but it is the image that comes to mind when asking what is behind this sensation.

[Ilona]

ok, yes, there is s feeling of existing, aliveness, amness, whatever you call it, but is it I? or is I just a label that we use as we learn that with language.
bring that fear up, that screaming 'i have right to exist', what is it that is saying that?

keep looking behind that feeling. is there a feeler?

[Innercall]

The feeling of existing is here and can be perceived. ‘I’ looks to be the thought that manifests from this perception. Yes, it is a label. When I think ‘I’, it brings that feeling of existing.

bring that fear up, that screaming 'i have right to exist', what is it that is saying that?

No one is screaming. It is only a thought that happens, like any other thought.

keep looking behind that feeling. is there a feeler?

I can’t find it. There is only the feeling that is mistaken for the feeler but there is no separation. There is the process of feeling but no feeler behind that feeling. There can be thoughts about the feeling tough.

Seeing this reveals a sensation that is larger in the center of the body from the throat to the lower part of the abdomen. The same way, there is no feeler when I look at it but that realisation has to be checked again and again as that feeling is identified with me again and again. A part of me doesn't believe it.

[Ilona]

Good work.
So feeler can not be found, thinker can not be found,
Then what is real? What is happening and what any of THIS has to do with the I thought?

Is there a self in any form or shape in reality?

[Innercall]

The process of feeling is real, the process of thinking is real, and the aliveness feeling is real. All experiences happen and are then very quickly labeled with the I thought to become labeled as my experiences. It feels like when a perception (object of sense or thought) appears then appears the I thought associated with the aliveness feeling. From these two succeeding thoughts appears a thought stating that the object is mine or not mine or me or not me. For example I look at the phone on the table, immediately I get this thought “my phone” combined with the feeling of existing. Or there can be a body sensation and it is followed with the thought “I feel that”. All this is not really clear. I feel blind when looking for the I thought.

Is there a self in any form or shape in reality?

I can’t find a definite self, there are many experiences labeled self. Still there is a sense of separation.

The clarity of seeing the non-existence of the doer, feeler and thinker was difficult to maintain while interacting during the day. It can be recalled as a thought becoming a kind of new belief, but really looking needs an effort.

[Ilona]

If it can be seen that there is no doer and no thinker, then what is it that is trying?
If everything is effortlessly happening, then what is it that puts effort?
And what is it that is trying to maintain clarity?

Can you look deeper at these questions.

[Innercall]

I don’t know what is trying but it seems to be motivated by some kind of fear of failing to see the truth, a need for validation. It is the same impulse and motivation that brings me to my computer to write this and that motivates me to do meditation. It is a raw desire. The consequences of this desire are the actions, some of which are the trying and the effort.
So what is trying, what puts the effort? It feels like this is done by me, that there is an I at the origin of that effort. But no, I can’t find specifically what is trying. I only get a sensation of urgency in the body, a strong desire find out. That desire causes effort and the trying to maintain clarity in an attempt to feed the desire. There is wanting but there is no object to that wanting. AAgh!! There is such an internal struggle right now…

[Ilona]

Oh yes, the inner struggle is the motivation to resolve this confusion.
The mind is seeking clarity and is looking at what is causing the struggle.
Tell me, can I wake up?

[Innercall]

Conceptually no. I can’t be the one that wakes-up and realizes that I never existed. Then if it is not I, who’s sleeping that can wake-up?
And I can see there is this feeling of I wanting to wake-up, of I looking for the absence of I and that causes an unsolvable problem in the mind.

[Ilona]

good stuff. so look at the mind as a labeling machine. it labels everything that is focused on. look around the room slowly. notice how mind imediately starts telling stories and name things.

when we learn the language mind learns to label actions:
i walk
i talk
i type,
i breathe,
i digest,
i sleep, etc.

if you change these labels to
walking
talking
typing,
breathing... etc, what happens?

is there an actual I that does the actions or is it just a word, that is serving as subject in the label? is there a subject in doing?

watch breathing, is there an i that breathes?
is there an i that wakes up in the morning?
is there an i that goes to sleep?
is there an i in any doing?

what is that i? what is it pointing to? can that i ever wake up? If not, what is waking up?

take a good look and answer when ready..

much love.

[Innercall]

You are right, mind labels everything seen or perceived.

if you change these labels to
walking
talking
typing,
breathing... etc, what happens?

There is a relaxing. When I change the way of labeling like changing from I see to seeing, very subtly a feeling of tension/separation changes to a sense of lightness/wholeness. Two becomes one in that instant.

is there an actual I that does the actions or is it just a word, that is serving as subject in the label? is there a subject in doing?

No there is no actual I. When an action is performed, there is the label ‘I am doing the action’ that appears in mind. There is no subject in doing. The subject is in between the doings, an added thought to the doing.

watch breathing, is there an i that breathes?

No, there is only the label “I breath” associated to the breathing sensation.

is there an i that wakes up in the morning?

It seems so, there is the label “I live” that is associated with all the memories that comes back when waking up, combined with all the labels made by the mind from all the sensory experiences happening when waking up. Have to take a deeper look at that.

is there an i that goes to sleep?

Getting asleep is a moment when the I disappear and labels stop, so it seems there is no I that goes to sleep.

is there an i in any doing?

No, there isn’t but there is the label “I am doing” generated by the mind when actions are happening.

what is that i? what is it pointing to?

That I is a thought. Alone it is a label associated to a sensation in the body, the feeling of existing. That thought is joined with the objects of perceptions in “I do this”, “I see this”. This creates a thought that links the feeling of existing with the object in a subject-object relationship. It creates a irreconcilability between the I thought associated with perception of the aliveness feeling and the perception or action happening. Both of these thoughts are at the same level, they are perceptions, and the mind is trying to impose a relationship between the two.

can that i ever wake up?

No, it is only a concept, a label created by the mind.

If not, what is waking up?

Feeling the same struggle now… All that my mind is yelling is “Nothing!!!”
Another answer coming is “The space where all this happens…”
I feel on the edge of a fog wall, blind and not knowing how to go through.